Chronic Scurvy

I already know that Scurvy is actually the cause of most heart disease. Much misleading medical propaganda has lead to most people being deficient in Vitamin C.....which causes scurvy. I now take 2000 mg of Vitamin C per day.

I don't understand why the medical industry doesn't let the world know that by simply consuming an adequate amount of Vitamin C per day, and I don't mean the "recommended daily allowance" because that is a joke, it can remove the risk of contracting many major diseases.

We now have the paradoxical situation of a basically inaccurate hypothesis dominating the thoughts and research for over 60 years in a field where no attempts have been made during this time to bring this theory into line with established facts. It has been a record of a serious potentially-fatal genetic liver-enzyme disease, an “inborn error of carbohydrate metabolism” being investigated by nutritionists and home economists. under the mistaken impression that it is a simple dietary disorder. Such little progress in improving human health in the past 80 years of clinical research can be attributed to the narrow outlook and low dosage orientation of the investigators due to the fact that they were neither qualified by training or competent by experience to be investigating a complicated problem in medical genetics. The most serious result of-this long exposure to misleading nutritional propaganda is that this hypothesis has become current medical dogma and has prevented the easy and simple elimination of Chronic Subclinical Scurvy (the CSS Syndrome) in our population and has permitted this disease to reach epidemic proportions (Stone, 1977).

Because of this misleading hypothesis, the current impression in the minds of a large segment of physicians is that

1. scurvy is a rare disease in this country;
2. that if you take 45 mg of ascorbate a day scurvy is “cured” and there is nothing further to worry about;
3. the only disease that ascorbate (or “vitamin C”) can treat is scurvy;
4. doses of 150 mg of ascorbate a day for a human adult are not only unnecessarily high, but may be toxic and are “wasteful”.

The clinical research of the past decade has shown these impressions to be sheer nonsense.

1. Chronic Subclinical Scurvy (the CSS Syndrome) is our most widespread disease (Stone, 1972).
2. 45 mg of ascorbate will prevent the appearance of the terminal symptoms of the disease but will not do much else. To correct Chronic Subclinical Scurvy requires at least 10 grams of ascorbate a day depending upon the incident stresses (Stone, 1977). Under heavy stresses the daily ascorbate requirement may be 200 grams or 300 grams to keep ahead of the CSS Syndrome.
3. The long term biochemical results of Chronic Subclinical Scurvy set the stage for the development of the serious medical problems of later life; the heart attacks, the cancer, the collagen diseases and many more. Preliminary clinical tests indicate that mega levels of ascorbate are useful in the prevention and treatment of cancer (Stone, 1974, 1976), heart disease, and many others (Stone 1972). In the case of viral diseases (Pauling, 1978, Stone, 1972), research of the past 30 years indicates that no one should succumb to a viral infection any more. Ascorbate is a non-specific, non-toxic virucide and when used at the proper daily dosage (up to 300 grams intravenously and/or orally) any viral infection can be relieved within 96 hours (Klenner, 1974, Cathcart, 1978, Pauling, 1976). The Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) or Crib Death, has been shown by the Australian workers, A. Kalokerinos and G. Dettman, to be a manifestation of infantile scurvy, due to the fact that all infants, born of mothers who depended solely on their diet as their only source of ascorbate, are born with the CSS Syndrome after nine months of intrauterine scurvy (Stone. 1978). SIDS can be prevented by increasing the infant’s intake of ascorbate (Cook, 1978). This has been known and published since 1974 (Kalokerinos, 1974). Yet 8000 to 10,000 babies die of SIDS a year because the doctors and others involved with the management of these babies permit this annual slaughter to take place because they have become so complacent with scurvy that they refuse to even try this harmless treatment.
4. Ascorbate is one of the least toxic substances known. Therapeutic doses up to 300 grams can be administered without unfavorable side reactions. The daily doses that we recommend for humans are based on amounts normally synthesized by the mammals and should not be regarded as “high” or “abnormal” amounts. We are using the “normal” mammalian levels. It is the “micro” daily amounts recommended under the “Vitamin C-Dietary Deficiency Disease” theory that are the inadequate abnormally low levels.

source: www.seanet.com...

There you have it. A simple cure for heart disease, cancer, SIDS. Where have you ever heard that a deficiency in Vitamin C causes SIDS?? Not from the medical industry, because it appears they are in denial that this problem even exists.

Or, is this part of the global plan to depopulate the planet?

[edit on 31-12-2005 by Excitable_Boy]

[edit on 31-12-2005 by Excitable_Boy]

Ascorbate isn't the only compound that's missing in humans, the most prominent i know of so far (other than ascorbic acid) is Lysine, an essential amino acid, so, if you're trying to use ascorbate to actually cure something (as opposed to preventive use) you will need to find out about the co-factors required in your special case !.

Think of it as a multiplicative process, where the result is by and large determined by the least abundant component (and if one component is zero, the result is zero, too...), since you cannot increase saturation levels above a certain point, especially with ascorbate, which is quickly lost through the kidneys.

That means that you have to do all the investigative work or you'll be walking the maze with blinders on, don't count on established doctors to help you, this way to look at diseases is anti-orthodox, aka. heretic.


general overview

this guy is a bit into politcs as you can see, but the rest is a good overview

here's another. already posted at

www.abovetopsecret.com...

scroll down to pt. 1.1. you will find a list containing f. ex:

excerpt from point 1.1.3

..
The primary cause of heart failure is lack of cellular biocatalysts, certain vitamins, minerals, carnitine, coenzyme Q10 and other bioenergy carriers in millions of heart muscle cells. This results in impaired heart pumping function and accumulation of water in the body.
..

of course, next question is how to restore it, i'll leave that to you and an internet search engine


-------


Explicit infomation on how to treat cardiovascular disease (!) can be found here


Disclaimer: use at your own risk don't take it as the gospel, i haven't tried it, so i am in no way an expert. From what i see, all of the specified trace elements, amino acids and all are pretty harmless, so i cannot see a reason no to at least try it.

my personal feeling wrt this defieciency, as i like to call it, is that no supplementation in the world will ever be more than a bandaid, that's like saying you can 'cure' diabetes by using insuln treatment, it's not going to happen and there's no way to tell how many other of these deficiencies there are hidden within us...

____________

in remembrance of XanaX, who orignally posted the CVD link, only to see his thread propmtly deleted and his account banned.


Excitable_Boy

let's hope we won't need to find a new forum tomorrow !

[edit on 31-12-2005 by Long Lance]

Excellent stuff. I do take Lysene and many other amino acids...carnatine, proline, arginine and many others....run everyday...TRY to eat right and do most of the time.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I already know that Scurvy is actually the cause of most heart disease.

This is actually an urban legend.

Before heart damage occurs due to scurvy, the lack of vitamin C causes a host of OTHER symptoms. Heart damage is one of the LAST symptoms of scurvy.

Early symptoms:
- bleeding gums (they are swollen, spongy, and PURPLE from the blood within. This is a very early symptom and one that's hard to miss.)
- easy bruising
- bleeding fingertips
- bleeding from old scars
- fatigue
- rheumatism-like aches
- bone problems
www.wrongdiagnosis.com...

You can see symptoms of some of the critical diagnostic elements here:
www.monzy.com...

It's VERY hard to miss.

I can assure you (from having heart disease myself and having relatives and friends with heart disease) that there's no commonality between the symptoms of heart disease and scurvy. (and there are a LOT of causes of heart disease, from defective heart valves (like my spouse) to plaque (like a cousin) to aneurysms (father-in-law) to high blood pressure (many relatives) to heart arrythmias (my mom and me) ... etc, etc, etc.)

1. scurvy is a rare disease in this country;
2. that if you take 45 mg of ascorbate a day scurvy is “cured” and there is nothing further to worry about;
3. the only disease that ascorbate (or “vitamin C”) can treat is scurvy;
4. doses of 150 mg of ascorbate a day for a human adult are not only unnecessarily high, but may be toxic and are “wasteful”.

All of those are true, based on long medical observation (starting with the experiences of the British navy) -- and if you don't believe the medical studies, then simply read up on some history of the British navy. All that was needed to cure scurvy... permanently... was adding one lime to the diet.

Now, if scurvy was cured only by 2,000 mg of ascorbate, then each British tar would have had to drink the juice of 15 to 20 limes each and every day of the voyage. www.infoplease.com...

Captain Cook first discovered this, and there's lots of documents and his logs are available. The amounts of fruit added to the diet are there as well, along with the documentation of the symptoms of scurvy going away.

The clinical research of the past decade has shown these impressions to be sheer nonsense.

Actually, the research of centuries (and the past decade) has supported the evidence you declamed as "sheer nonsense."

Stone and Pauling were advocates of the theory, and doctors and biochemists ran many experiments because they believed that Stone and Pauling had found a "magic bullet" and that Stone and Pauling were right and it could usher in an era of better health.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

It interferes with glucose transfer:
intl.ajcn.org...

It causes crystals to form in the urine (irritating the bladder, etc) among other things:
arjournals.annualreviews.org...;jsessionid=nH5SjD7SS6L4oIfrjI?cookieSet=1&journalCode=nutr

...those are just the highlights.

Now, it won't hurt you if you're young and healty, but I sure wouldn't advise anyone like my spouse (or me) to ditch our heart meds and take vitamin C instead.

That strategy would kill us both -- heart arrythmias are not cured by vitamin C and narrowing arteries and heart valve problems are not influenced by megadoses of vitamin C. And the heart certainly isn't improved by overdoses of vitamin C.

Good stuff allaround.
I can testify to LongLance's expertise.

Vitamin C is crucial.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I already know that Scurvy is actually the cause of most heart disease.

This is actually an urban legend.
..

Doesn't matter what you call it, the sore fact is that a mammal the size and weight of a human being normally produces in excess of 10 grams of ascorbate a day, while we're naturally ingesting in the range of milligrams.

Achieving an equivalent dietary intake without supplements is impossible, period (200 kiwis at 50mg ascorbate each? for 10 grams, still not the same, go figure)

take this information any way you wish

see Excitable_Boy' link above
..This liver metabolite, ascorbate, is produced in an unstressed goat for instance, at the rate of about 13,000 mg per day per 150 pounds body weight

do you think such deficiency is irrelevant, that our bodies are spceial and don't need the stuff and that being short on ascorbate by a factor of 1000 will not have side effects?

..
It's VERY hard to miss.
..

let's see the reverse... poisoning. (assuming thimerosal causes autism, which is compelling but unproven) Acute mercury poisoning is very obvious, but continued low level exposure will result in various more or less unplatable impairments. (which would probably be misdiagnosed, btw..)

INow, it won't hurt you if you're young and healty, but I sure wouldn't advise anyone like my spouse (or me) to ditch our heart meds and take vitamin C instead.

Who said you should ditch your meds? unless supplementation with amino acids, trace elements and vitamins is known to interfere with your medication, i see no reason not to use supplements additionally.

That strategy would kill us both -- heart arrythmias are not cured by vitamin C and narrowing arteries and heart valve problems are not influenced by megadoses of vitamin C. And the heart certainly isn't improved by overdoses of vitamin C.

these are completely different animals altogether, all the ascorbate/lysine combo (for other helpful ingredients, see links above) does is to provide the body with components for the formation of Collagen, which will improve the arterial walls, not more not less.

Of course, if you don't like it don't use it.

PS: arrythmic heartbeat could be caused by a) lack of electrolytes (no spark so to speak) or b) lack of blood supply (byproduct of CVD) (or c) something i failed to list, d'uh) of course, i'm not a MD and if i were i couldn't do squat over the web, so, it'd be your turn to investigate the underlying causes.

Hello

I actually hadn't heard of the vitamin c and scurvy claim - I had heard of other claims made for it wrt the common cold and cancer. This is all Pauling's fault, eh?

www.quackwatch.org...

Cheers

TD

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
Hello

I actually hadn't heard of the vitamin c and scurvy claim - I had heard of other claims made for it wrt the common cold and cancer. This is all Pauling's fault, eh?

www.quackwatch.org...

Cheers

TD

Duly noted. i'm not a Pauling worshipper anyway and although i think that ascorbate is health-enhancing, it's certainly not a wonder drug. edit wrt link: the recommendation of excessive dosages of Vitamin A is negligent, it's fat-soluble and cannot be excreted, therefore overdosable and potentailly lethal that's why no-one should take any of this as the gospel !!! know the ingredients, what they do and if they might help you.

that said, can you refute that most mammal species are synthesizing ascorbate at a rate that would correlate to 10 grams or more a day?

if not then i'd say, ascorbate may certainly have a value at 'natural' doses, don't you think? Sure, all by itself it's just an anti-oxidant, combined with other nutrients, well, you get my drift, don't you?

[edit on 2-1-2006 by Long Lance]

I don't think that vitamin C megadoses will cause *that* much trouble, but then again I'm not an expert. I know that Byrd posted a few links regarding possible adverse effects, not really found anything from my own searches on this - this is probably *my* fault for not doing it properly! If I ever get the time will have a look on PubMed and see what I can see!

This thread is ringing a few bells wrt vitamin supplements, but I'm not sure where....


Cheers TD

There you go, that's what I was thinking about:

www.quackwatch.org...

- evil Swiss multinationals making a fortune out of multivitamin sales. Slightly off topic, I know.

And on the same basis, here's something interesting about your friendly neighbourhood drugstore.

www.quackwatch.org...

There's a very good link to Cochrane here - quite a few links to various studies (and their recommendations) on various vitamin supplements. And just about everything else, for that matter.

www.cochrane.org...

Once again though, I'm not finding anything on vitamin c and 'chronic scurvy', in either the regular medical sites or the 'quackwatch'-style sites. Is this a theory that isn't widely propogated even in 'alternative' circles?

Cheers

TD

Originally posted by Long Lance
Doesn't matter what you call it, the sore fact is that a mammal the size and weight of a human being normally produces in excess of 10 grams of ascorbate a day, while we're naturally ingesting in the range of milligrams.

That figure, if I'm not mistaken, is derived from a very general "this animal needs this much and that animal needs that much, so an XXX-lb human needs THIS much." (source: www.americanfreepress.net... )

The problem is, each animal has different biochemistry and the fact that it's being excreted in urine means that you're getting too much.

see Excitable_Boy' link above
..This liver metabolite, ascorbate, is produced in an unstressed goat for instance, at the rate of about 13,000 mg per day per 150 pounds body weight

Problem is, we're not goats. At least, I'm reasonably sure that I'm not. And if you fed me a goat's diet, I'd drop dead because I don't have a stomach that can process cellulose.

let's see the reverse... poisoning. (assuming thimerosal causes autism, which is compelling but unproven) Acute mercury poisoning is very obvious, but continued low level exposure will result in various more or less unplatable impairments. (which would probably be misdiagnosed, btw..)

The scurvy symptoms I listed begin with the mild ones... including bleeding of the gums. Low level scurvy (as you can find out from reading about Cook and other ocean voyagers) manifests with brusing and bleeding.

Heart problems don't.

Who said you should ditch your meds? unless supplementation with amino acids, trace elements and vitamins is known to interfere with your medication, i see no reason not to use supplements additionally.

Agreed, but within reason. Megadoses of some vitamins (such as vitamin A) are harmful to the body (people have been poisoned by eating polar bear liver, which has huge quantities of the stuff.)

PS: arrythmic heartbeat could be caused by a) lack of electrolytes (no spark so to speak) or b) lack of blood supply (byproduct of CVD) (or c) something i failed to list, d'uh) of course, i'm not a MD and if i were i couldn't do squat over the web, so, it'd be your turn to investigate the underlying causes.

Yes, temporary arrythmias can be caused by electrolyte imbalance or blood supply problems (bulemics frequently develop heart problems from electrolyte imbalance.)

My points in listing arrythmias and other coronary disease were this:
* there's no one single cause for "heart disease."
* announcing that a total cure for heart disease can be effected by taking one substance is not good science.
* announcing that there is one source for heart disease (of all kinds) is bad science (you can have heart disease from viruses, for example.)
* one type of heart disease is caused by scurvy and can be addressed by doses of ascorbic acid -- BUT it always shows up after the other symptoms appear.

I didn't go with hammer and tongs at the original post -- that might seem a bit rude. But the "scurvy" theory isn't even accepted by alternative medicine proponents, as others have pointed out.

There's a lot of published information on safe upper limits:
www.iom.edu...

Now... you might not like the answers here, but they've been determined by treating people who come into hospitals and emergency rooms, suffering from overdoses of common vitamins and so forth. In addition, the military has done a LOT of research on diet, to try and get every ounce of performance from their troops. www.iom.edu...

(the links above are to books you have to pay for, but the info should be available elsewhere.)

If there was such a thing as "low level scurvy", the troops would be force-fed preventive measures each and every day (as the British sailors were in the 1800's.)

And, having said all that, vitamin C is necessary for everyone, but there's no evidence that megadoses of it are utilized by the body. Here's a nice site that reviews some of the positive research:
www.therubins.com...

Notice that it does say that doses of vitamin C seem to promote heart health in older men. However, it also says that megadoses aren't effective, can sometimes interfere with meds, and says nothing about scurvy. I suspect that the original "scurvy" urban legend came about when someone saw this report and concluded that everyone suffers from Chronic Low Level Scurvy.

Whatever anyone has to say, Vitamin C is extremely important and practically every human being on the planet has a Vitamin C deficiency which causes all sorts of medical problems. The USRDA for Vitmain C is a joke as it is for just about everything.

Next up Potassium. Another crucial part of the human diet that practically every human being is deficient in. I eat bananas, figs, dates, dried apricots, drink V8 juice etc....every day to get enough Potassium. A daily multi-vitamin or even a potassium only supplement only has 3% of the supposed daily requirement for Potassium.

Bottom line, the mysteries of many medical problems lie in our diets.

Originally posted by TaupeDragon
I don't think that vitamin C megadoses will cause *that* much trouble, but then again I'm not an expert.

i said Vitamin A, not C, to the end of the article you linked, the author said Pauling also recommended an absurd dose of Vitamin A which is dangerous and unnecessary, since the body can synthetisize it from beta-carotene, which is harmless.

And, having said all that, vitamin C is necessary for everyone, but there's no evidence that megadoses of it are utilized by the body.

I wouldn't call 2000 mg a day a mega-dose. I would call the USRDA which I think is 45 mg a day to be an absurd joke!....and practically gives the appearance that the US government WANTS everyone to walk around with scurvy!

Hello Long Lance

I wasn't disagreeing with you about vitamin A. Sorry if it read like that. Was trying to make the point that if large doses of vitamin C don't cause too many problems (see a few of Byrd's links), then even if it doesn't do any good I can't get worried about people taking it in large doses for a perceived health benefit.

Cheers

TD

Originally posted by Byrd

....
That figure, if I'm not mistaken, is derived from a very general "this animal needs this much and that animal needs that much, so an XXX-lb human needs THIS much." (source: www.americanfreepress.net... )

The problem is, each animal has different biochemistry and the fact that it's being excreted in urine means that you're getting too much.

ok, partially guilty, it is a deducion by analogy, but that's not illogical when you think of it, because every single mammal (with the ability, ie pretty much all except guinea pigs and primates) produces a whole lot more than a few milligrams, so doesn't that ring a bell ? we are not that different from other mammallian species, are we?

see www.cforyourself.com... for comparison between species

please note that all ascorbate producers partially excrete it, it's an undesired side effect. (scroll down to 'expensive urine?')

www.vitamincfoundation.org...

As for 'too much', there are looneys (um, sorry, bold individuals) who administer sodium ascorbate intravenously in egregious doses, and it's no big deal, apparently.

www.mall-net.com...

note, that i'm not sure about the miracle effects he's describing...

Problem is, we're not goats. At least, I'm reasonably sure that I'm not. And if you fed me a goat's diet, I'd drop dead because I don't have a stomach that can process cellulose.

any mammal will do for comparison, including omnivorous ones...

The scurvy symptoms I listed begin with the mild ones... including bleeding of the gums. Low level scurvy (as you can find out from reading about Cook and other ocean voyagers) manifests with brusing and bleeding.

Heart problems don't.

You're comparing acute with chronic deficiency. on top of that, heart diseases have different causes, unless they originate from clogged blood vessels.

Agreed, but within reason. Megadoses of some vitamins (such as vitamin A) are harmful to the body (people have been poisoned by eating polar bear liver, which has huge quantities of the stuff.)

Know what you use, fat soluble vitamins are potentially dangerous, as said before. same for salts, btw.

My points in listing arrythmias and other coronary disease were this:
* there's no one single cause for "heart disease."
* announcing that a total cure for heart disease can be effected by taking one substance is not good science.
* announcing that there is one source for heart disease (of all kinds) is bad science (you can have heart disease from viruses, for example.)
* one type of heart disease is caused by scurvy and can be addressed by doses of ascorbic acid -- BUT it always shows up after the other symptoms appear.

True, i for one was strictly talking about cardiovascular disease i'm quite certain that there's no room for misunderstanding (blood vessels clogged by plaque). i can see the reason of such confusion, though, CVD's most dreaded complications are stroke and heart attack, hence 'heart disease', even though that's factually incorrect.

The theory behind the ascorbate/lysine treatment is that plaque allocation is a safeguard against internal bleeding caused by porous arteries which cannot sustain the pressure spikes during the heartstroke. this view is reinforced by small ruptures which are also a common symptom of cvd. what causes degraded arteries? lack of connective tissue, ie. collagen, which requires Ascorbate AND Lysine to form among other substances... both are not being synthesized by the human body, hence the need to supplement... blodd pressure reducing medication will still help to a degree, but it will not repair the damage, just reduce the incidence of new damage.


wrt your final point: many times, damage done to tissue (be it by radiation, chemicals and so on, deficiency...) varies with intensity and time of expostion, doesn't it? so if acute scurvy (d'uh i hate using that word) causes heart problems quickly, doesn't that indicate at least a potential to cause similar problems on the long run?

In addition, the military has done a LOT of research on diet, to try and get every ounce of performance from their troops. ...

If there was such a thing as "low level scurvy", the troops would be force-fed preventive measures each and every day (as the British sailors were in the 1800's.)

If you substituted 'soldiers' with 'athletes' you would argue against your case, wouldn't you? the problem i have with the military that it seems to assume that the absence of immediate problems means all is well.

Navies of the sailship era HAD to find a cure for scurvy, it was life-threatening, i doubt something that doesn't constantly show up on the radar screen would draw much attention. besides, if you looked up the history of the V-22 you wouldn't exhibit as much faith in military planners' judgement, i dare to wager.

Notice that it does say that doses of vitamin C seem to promote heart health in older men. However, it also says that megadoses aren't effective, can sometimes interfere with meds, and says nothing about scurvy. I suspect that the original "scurvy" urban legend came about when someone saw this report and concluded that everyone suffers from Chronic Low Level Scurvy.

so what, people once believed the earth was flat, that nothing heavier than air can fly and so on.

Unless somebody can show me a few good reasons why our mammalian physique needs much much less ascorbate than any other, i'll continue to believe that most of us are 'vitamin C' deficient.


----------additional sites i ran across:---------

www.nutrition4health.org...

description of potential side effects

www.cforyourself.com...

ok i hope you'll be able to see past the scurvy==ridiculous, so the entire thread is ridicoulous logic. i think the 'scurvy' moniker should be reserved to acute, life-threatening ascorbate deficiency.

While researching another topic, two articles i stumbled upon immediately cought my attention: their main focus is dental health, although reference to skeletal deformation can readily be found.

disclaimer - both articles are based on the work of Dr. Weston Price, so best use them in a complementary fashion.

from www.consumerhealth.org...

..
SWISS ALPS He first went to an isolated village in the Swiss Alps. You could only get to it by a foot path which was not large enough for a wheeled cart. The only foods in the village were grown there. Their diet consisted mainly of very rich dairy foods, rye which they grew themselves, a few vegetables, and a small amount of meat. He examined children in this village, and was absolutely amazed to find that most children had no tooth decay; they all had absolutely straight teeth and no dental occlusions. They were all very handsome with very broad faces, wide nostrils and sturdy bodies.
..

now, obviously, this wasn't the result of superior hygiene, but more adequate nutrition... let's see an even more extreme example - The Innu aka. Eskimos

same source as above

..
ESKIMOS Next he went to visit the Eskimos. Eskimos are known to be sturdy and strong on their native diet. Eskimos ate a lot of sea food, much of which they fermented. They used whale and seal oil. These are not marine oils; they are animal fats. He found no tooth decay and their teeth were uniformly straight and without cavities. When the Eskimos were exposed to the so-called civilized foods in towns where ships came and set up stores, they immediately began to experience rampant tooth decay and the onset of infectious and chronic disease. But the most striking thing he found was that children born to parents who had adopted this diet had what he called altered germ plasm. In other words, they did not reach their full genetic potential. Their faces were not as broad as those of their ancestors, their nostrils were narrower and their teeth were crowded.
..

It's obvious that Innu traditional diet is most certainly extremely unbalanced (no vegetables in the arctic regions), yet apparently healthier than 'industrial' diets.

The list goes on and on, it's important to stress that native populations did not practice any sort of dental hygiene:

mercola.com...

..
Dr. Price and his wife went just about everywhere in their journeys. They traveled to isolated villages in the Swiss alps, to cold and blustery islands off the coast of Scotland, to the Andes mountains in Peru, to several locations in Africa, to the Polynesian islands, to Australia and New Zealand, to the forests of northern Canada, and even to the Arctic Circle. In all, Price visited with fourteen groups of native peoples.


After gaining the trust of the village elders in the various places, Price did what came naturally: he counted cavities and physically examined them. Imagine his surprise to find, on average, less than 1% of tooth decay in all the peoples he visited!

He also found that these people's teeth were perfectly straight and white, with high dental arches and well-formed facial features. And there was something more astonishing: none of the peoples Price examined practiced any sort of dental hygiene; not one of his subjects had ever used a toothbrush!
..

and that there's one common denominator:

..
The Dinkas of the Sudan, whom Price claimed were the healthiest of all the African tribes he studied, ate a combination of fermented whole grains with fish, along with smaller amounts of red meat, vegetables, and fruit. The Bantu, on the other hand, the least hardy of the African tribes studied, were primarily agriculturists. Their diet consisted mostly of beans, squash, corn, millet, vegetables, and fruits, with small amounts of milk and meat. Price never found a totally vegetarian culture. Modern anthropological data support this: all cultures and peoples show a preference for animal foods and animal fat.
..

,,, which obviously contradicts our entire dietary belief system...

more native preferences:

..
Price noted that all peoples, except the Innu, consumed insects and their larvae. Obviously in more tropical areas, insects formed a more integral part of the diet. Price noted that: The natives of Africa know that certain insects are very rich in special food values at certain seasons, also that their eggs are valuable foods. A fly that hatches in enormous quantities in Lake Victoria is gathered and used fresh and dried for storage. They also use ant eggs and ants. Bees, wasps, dragonflies, beetles, crickets, cicadas, moths, and termites were consumed with zest also, particularly in Africa.


Price also noted that all cultures consumed fermented foods each day. Foods such as cheese, cultured butter, yogurt, or fermented grain drinks like kaffir beer (made from millet) in Africa, or fermented fish as with the Innu were an important part of native diets.


Curiously, all native peoples studied made great efforts to obtain seafood, especially fish roe which was consumed so that we will have healthy children. Even mountain dwelling peoples would make semiannual trips to the sea to bring back seaweeds, fish eggs, and dried fish. Shrimp, rich in both cholesterol and vitamin D, was a standard food in many places, from Africa to the Orient.
..

The last major feature of native diets that Price found was that they were rich in fat, especially animal fat

..

does it get any better? or worse? yes, of course, at least one doomsday prophecy per day is required, right? so there:


from www.consumerhealth.org... again

...

PHYSICAL DEGENERATION IN CIVILIZED SOCIETIES Francis Pottenger, a researcher and archivist at the Price Pottenger Foundation found that diets that cause this kind of alteration in the facial structure, whether it be of humans or animals, eventually leads to extinction. If we continue through generations eating foods that produce these kinds of bodies, we will eventually experience general sterility among the population.
..

at this point i'd like to point out that this observation squares well with the current low-sperm-count craze.

On to potential Counter-Strategies

..
CHARACTERISTICS OF TRADITIONAL DIETS The diets of these isolated communities differed in many particulars. Some had seafood in them, some had dairy products, some had meat, some had more plant foods, some had hardly any plant foods, but the underlying characteristics of these diets can be used so that you can apply them to the foods you prefer and the foods which suit you. Dr. Price was a scientist, and he was able to analyze the foods of these people, and he found that they were ten times richer in fat soluble vitamins, and four times richer in minerals and water soluble vitamins than the American diet of his day, and that was in the 1930's
..

Ok, so now you know it, unless you're willing and capable of living far away from civilisation you're screwed - welcome to the club, d'uh. Seafood is mercury poisoned, cattle raised on antibiotics, ground animals and artificial hormones is a hazard, not a meal and crops are fertilised to maximise weight and volume, instead of nutritional value (fertilised replaces a few elements,less well known varieties inevitably deplete, but you don't necessarily noticeas long as you ferilise the heck out of your crops...)

catch-22 for all supplementers - take this as an example, dependencies are everywhere, mind you

..
VITAMIN A In order to convert carotenes into vitamin A, you need fats in your diet, so if you are on a low fat diet, eating a lot of plant foods, you are not going to convert those carotenes into the vital vitamin A that you need for so many things like thyroid hormone, certain enzymes and vitamin E. Vitamin A is needed for proper growth, prevention of birth defects, proper functioning glands, and for the endocrine system and immune system. It's needed for the eyes, skin and bones. There is more emphasis on carotenes today than vitamin A, but carotenes are not a good source of vitamin A.

Babies and children do not convert any of the pro-vitamin A found in plants into vitamin A. They must get this all important nutrient from animal fats or breast milk. What happens when we put babies on low fat diets? We get failure to thrive, stunting of growth, learning disabilities, and problems with the immune system.

..unless of course you eat carotenes in good amounts along with enough fa..and ...are old enough.

=========


General Disclaimer: do not toss out all dietary advices given to you in the past, re-evaluate them if you feel the need, and evaluate the information i posted, search search and again search, and please understand that

today's foods are the product of industrialised agriculture, complete with fertilisers for crops and hormones and antibiotics for cattle

so don't even think of comparing this stuff to naturally grown and bred foods.



Personal comments: from what i see, our recommended dosages are a far cry of what constitutes a healthy dietary intake, wether our list of vitamins is complete, or lacking a few vital substances (as the native preference for seafoods suggests) remains an open yet important question.


feedback welcome, but please if you're going to trash my sources, make it quick, i'll believe when i'm a dork after 2 lines or so, k ?

[edit on 18-1-2006 by Long Lance]

Vitamin C deficiency leading to scurvy can be identified with some early symptoms...

* The gums become soft, tender and spongy.
* Consequently, the person affected by scurvy often lose teeth. In the long run, the oral cavity completely loses strength and there is a high possibility of losing all teeth.
* There is bleeding from the mucus membranes.
* Spots are found in various parts of the body– these spots are more in abundance in the thighs and legs.
* In general, a person affected by scurvy looks very pale and depressed and weak.
* There is no formation of new bones.
* Exhaustion, diarrhea, fainting, kidney or lung disease follow suit.
* The person may be extremely irritable and also suffer from severe joint or muscle pain.

source: www.scurvysymptoms.net...