Who is behind the plain Biblical deceptions?

It seems to me, the more I read the Bible and study things and search my mind heart and soul the more I realize how small minded Christianity and the judeo-christian world is to NOT see what wealth of knowledge is in their beloved holy scriptures...they seemed decieved and confused even when provided with the Biblical quotes and facts.

Is it a conspiracy that the truth of these documents has been clouded, or is it just a product of our own pride and ignorance...which to me are more root words to prejudice than to pre-judge are...

I can't get past the first 4 books of Genesis without seeing a far larger picture than most of the Judeo-Christian/Jewish world at large seems to understand. I don't discount the Bible as other religeons might, I believe it! I just seem to see things more clearly than some others...this is not really a matter of semantics or interpretation either...much of it is right there in black and white...but is glossed over and discarded as "irrelevant for our understanding" huh?

The more I study it, the more I am inclined to believe the Almighty God of the Bible, is indeed God of this world, Earth, and this universe as we know it...but He is not alone...and I don't mean winged angels...and that opens up vast possibilites for understanding the existential nature of mankind-and yet...we don't...

Everyone from Catholic priests to Baptist ministers tell me I am in error... and that I don't understand what I read...or I misinterpret what I read...but I wonder How is that? I have no bias...I haven't attended theological seminary schools to be fed a biased form of belief to teach...as say.... hmmmm....they have.

I am reading the Word Of God as I know it and they claim it, and I acknowledge it as such, and through faith see MUCH more to it than what appears to the naked eye...I think I must be reading it with my third eye wide open?

and what I read, and believe are not contrary to Jewish or Christian beliefs...it isn't discounting them or minimizing them, so why is it considered so wrong to question/expound upon accepted perceptions/interpretations?

Who is behind this conspircay of perception that interprets the Bible beyond contestation?

And I am not even talking about KJV vs other versions etc...so don't bother going there, though it is a valid issue I understand, but this is above and beyond that

God may be the Alpha and Omega of our world...but He is not alone in His...nor does He claim to be alone...where in the Bible does it claim he is alone? Without family, equals or peers? WHERE?

as a matter of fact, He many times eludes to the fact He is NOT alone.

It is perceptual indeed, but a broader perception is called for when understanding something as great as "God" and His word

Clearly He is of a race, of which we are descendants of. Clearly there are others like Him-he refers to them. And what of "Thou Shalt have no other Gods before me" why is that commandment so pigeonholed to assume it means that there are no other gods, that all other gods are FALSE Gods in the sense they aren't Gods at all?

Perhaps they are indeed gods...they just aren't meant to be OUR gods...they did not create us...they did not create our world...they are not then worthy of our worship or devotion...they are not meant to be OUR gods...but perhaps they are indeed gods...

The wrath of God...nothing angers Him more than idols of /worship of ...other gods, right? But is that wrath based in that His people would worship "false" "dead" Gods of wooden statues etc...or that other God's had the ability to steal the devotion from HIS creations that angers Him most...with us...and with them...the other Gods...

...his brothers? His sisters? His cousins? His opponents in immortal life?

Know what got me thinking about discussing this? ATS points. (but NO, not in the way that you think...not to gain any-read on)

I've never cared/thought about them much-admittedly I'm not very competitive nor do I look for outside affirmations for validation usually and I didn't really understand their value/the system here...but then I see talk of them, and notice people abusing things in small ways just trying to cop a few cheap ones here and there...interesting to me.

...and I wondered more about benefits of them... and I start noticing I have begun to look at someone's points now when reading their posts...and find I am inclined to put much more "faith" in the logic of those with many points than those with few...and rightly so, as usually more points belong to the more coherent and articulate with something of value to say...and their followers reply...and add to their points...

the ATS board Gods... you know who they are...

So I was thinking...if in the race of God...gods...the real ones...is there a value system based on the devotion of the creations they create?

Are we their point system? Do we make them stronger? If we worship other Gods...does it strengthen the other Gods...or weaken our Almighty God?

Each religeon has bits of truth in it...and devoted followers...is that really because religeon controls the masses?

...or are the masses really controlling the balance of the point system of the Gods?

Perhaps religeons have such devoted followers because the God of each is a real god...and the religion is thus true...and rings true in the mind and soul of the follower....the believer. The only error is in the fact it breaks one of the greatest laws given us by our creator, that we are NOT to have any other God before Him-the Almighty God of our universe.

So...do they, the other gods, then get extra, say 3X the points for stealing the devotion of another's creation?

...and thus our devotion is fought for...and I'll bet...through creation of a world and species, a generation (meaning life on earth from begining to end, not one of our family "generations" on Earth as mortals) much power is gained.

To create a species worthy of souls and a world for them to live in practicing devotion, and rule that they shall have no other God....if each soul's devotion equals power to that God...then wow...that is quite a power plant the creation becomes...if faithful.

Maybe as a god, you have to have a certain amount of points before you can even create a world of your own...and populate it with souls in your image, or in any physical image...perhaps only the best souls receive bodies in the image of their God...the rest...well...maybe they look a little grey...

...and so then...what of the other species...of our God...or of other Gods? Can they cross over into other god's realms, universes, planes?

Can they command the devotion of many for awhile before God maybe...I don't know...floods the Earth and starts over with souls who will worship-and strengthen- only Him again?

Genesis ch 4 talks of the sons of God coming to Earth and mating with the beautiful and fair mortal women as one of the main reasons He destroyed mankind through the flood...

Genesis Ch 4:1-4

"1": And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

"2": That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

"3": And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

"4": There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

the sons of God...why don't we talk much of them? Where are they now? What are they up to? Those silly boys...who's women are they mating with these days?

Or have they gone on to have worlds of their own?

Clearly the Bible supports the idea we are not alone even from the beginng...not even was God alone...

Genesis 1:26-27

26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This strikes me because in vs 26 it specifies "our" image...and then in 27 so he made man in his own image male and female...and in the second chapter it goes on to tell of how Adam was created and how Eve was created from Adam and then it says in vs 24 of ch 2...

24: Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

and this is so overused as everyone takes this to be an exhortation almost and thus it's been incorporated into marriage ceremonies etc...but he isn't speaking to us, he was speaking of Adam here.

He is speaking specifically of Adam-the first man...mankind...leaving his father and mother...aka God(s)...his heavenly father and mother who perthaps are "one" as God...to becoming one in the flesh with his wife now...iright? Is He not?

Does anyone really think He's just trying to say in general that all men will leave their earthly families and become "one" with their wife without stating it was a prescendent based on Adam leaving his parents? Was he just setting that up as trite part of a silly marriage ceremony? I don't think so-He implies from where Adam-mankind- comes...from parents...from a family

in the 3rd chapter after Eve was beguiled and ate of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and bade Adam to partake as well, God again speaks...to whom?...and about what?...and again he says "us" in ch 22...

22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

he was sent out of the garden of eden...so as not to partake of the tree of life and live forever...thus being an immortal...like unto the Gods...his heavenly parents...or the Gods...a race...because where did God the father's mate come from? Who is the mother referred to when God says a man shall leave his father and mother...when he gives Adam and eve to one another?

...and who is he referring to in general if you must, when he says "our" and "us" in these scriptures?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM???????????????????????????? Can someone clarify this... or dispute any of it that it does not lean more towards the possibility of God not being alone, than it does to imply he must be alone... or that we are in the universe.... or in the world beyond it?

What is being hid, by whom, and why? These things are written plainly in the Bible and yet go unseen and unnoticed...or unappreciated. The Bible is plain about these things....why are leaders so vague about them? I don't have the answers, but I firmly believe the questions are valid.


[edit on 31-12-2005 by think2much]

Hi Brother think2much ,

Yea, verily! Yea, verily! Here's a worst-case scenario that really bugs me! There are Bible commentators that take self-interpreting passages and give their own interpretations anyway!! If they would just keep reading another five or ten verses or do a little cross-referencing they would find that the Bible does indeed interpret itself on very many occasions.
Also, while I do greatly appreciate the variety of expression that the modern translations exhibit, e-sword.net has Clarke's and Gill's free online commentaries that compare the ancient versions (that the modern translations came from) in a way that allows comparison without having to have knowledge of all these various languages.

Blessings, LawrenceRaymond

Here we go again; another Judeo-Christian basher who is using a thinly veiled usage of the word "conspiracy" to hide his contempt.

I assure you, your lack of understanding of what you try and read is not a conspiracy.

By the way, this shallow line of reasoning is nothing new. Obviously, you had a bandwagon-joiner, and I am sure there are many more that haven't read any more or better than you, so, what can I say? Enjoy! What I do want you to know, though, is that I am fully aware that this is not a sincere attempt at conspiracy, but an obvious and typical attack on the Judeo-Christian belief system.

Well there you go then. Don't ever ask that question again think2much, you Judeo-Christian basher you.

I'll take my lesson from it also, and never question all the biblical references to the sons of God and their earthly exploits. I'm sure I wouldn't be able to understand the answers anyway.

Originally posted by think2much
It - valid.
[edit on 31-12-2005 by think2much]

From the first word to the last, you are in error. Line upon line and precept upon precept, by two or more witnesses (scriptures) truth will be known. The bible does indeed interpret itself and contrary to the "evilbible.com" guy coming and backing up your theories as he undoubtably will when he sees this thread, you really need to read it all before you make any public opinions, just a bit of advice as it will show your ignorance of the rest of scripture (no offense). Ignorance is not knowing, stupidity is knowing and doing/saying error anyway.

edit: typos (i hate laptop keyboards!!)

[edit on 31/12/05 by OneGodJesus]

[edit on 31/12/05 by OneGodJesus]

Actually, I think think2much has some valid points. The Bible is full of references to multiple gods and if you claim to believe the Bible is the Word of G-d and infallible, then you have to believe that this particular G-d has peers.

Now, I don't happen to believe that G-d has peers and this is not a problem for me because I don't put much stock in any literal reading of any version of the Bible. Having read the Bible and studied both the text and the context as well as the history of how we came to have this collection of stories, I think it's just a nice collection of stories from a whole bunch of people over a very long period of time so, it's just natural that parts of it wouldn't agree perfectly with other parts. No big deal.

The problem is for those who want to have a holy war over their views that this Bible is the absolute and infallible Word of G-d and should be interpreted literally. It's an unwinnable battle that will go on for a very long time because one side is arguing from a spiritual, emotional, theological perspective and the other side is using history, linguistics, science, etc. without the personal emotional involvement. The "missles" fired from each side are flying far over their heads falling harmlessly well on the other side.

Here we go again; another Judeo-Christian basher who is using a thinly veiled usage of the word "conspiracy" to hide his contempt.

I assure you Thomas Crowne, that first of all I am not a Judeo Christian basher. I know that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of the Almighty God and our savior. I know this not just because I was taught it by my father as I am a PK (Preacher's Kid, for those unfamiliar with the term) but because I have a personal relationship with my savior and a testimony of the truthfulness both of Him, and of the Bible-one confirmed to my by the His spirit-by the Holy Ghost.

However, to follow Him, must I adopt all the points of view of the masses of His followers without questioning things, and coming to conclusions myself? Why am I the subject of your derision when you don't know me and nothing I said in my post was intended to be anti-Christian. I've not posted much here at ATS, but I guarantee you I've never done anything remotely Anti-Christian or Christian bashing.

I do get so sick of most traditional Judeo-Christians continually bashing ME whenever I think outside the religious box....or the lame answers that we are just "not supposed to have all the answers." as my father conintually discouraged my intellectual-spiritual inquisitiveness even as a child and insisted I just memorize scripture and believe what was told to me...

...and not to worry my pretty little head about the more existential things that were too lofty for me...or for mortals in general.

I understand there are people that attempt to discredit Christianity through such inspection and discussion of the Bible-but in reading my post, is that truly what you thought I was doing? I am sure I do come right out and say I think many believers don't even know what is in the Bible, or take time to read the Bible and ponder the possibilities of what is revealed in it...is that what you base my "Judeo-Christian bashing" status on? This is just a fact I too often find to be true of many Christians-to their shame.

Or is it the fact I openly discuss the literal words of the Bible and question our understanding of then and our perceptions of God? I do question the widely accepted Judeo-Christian beliefs when I read the Bible and come across such subjects that there are no answers for, or in my personal journey I take pause to ponder the possiblilities...but to do so is apparently blasphemous and invites contempt from my fellow Christians-and people like you-why is that?!

Maybe you've just seen alot of Christian bashing done in this fashion-or in these forumns, OK, then I can understand, but I can guarantee you wholeheartedly it was not my intention.

I wanted to make my thoughts known as I was reading the book of Genesis-getting a jump start on reading the Bible from front to back for 2006...and my mind pondered those concepts in the first 4 books of Genesis....

and as I discussed, as I logged on to browse ATS last night... I was thinking of the points system here...and seeing how people do silly things that are in MHO just to try to gain points..and my thoughts merged...admittedly it was late in NY when I wrote that-and I thought it funny where my thoguths took me...but still off the top of my head I thought my thought process was worth exploring if there were other like-minded people...who think outside the religious box, and ponder that there is just more to know and understand about God.

I knew I'd encounter resistance to the idea by those like most of my family and society I encounter, but I honestly thought in such a forumn I'd really find those of great minds who could help me question these things more coherently-or perhaps for once, even answer some of them to my satisfaction....

or I might even show an example, by the replies I got... of what I consider the inadvertant conspiracy of keeping such thoguhts at bay...keeping desires for more knowledge at bay...in the form of being rediculed for my thoughts/bashed for my expressing them openly and honestly-as such is not acceptable

I never once bashed Christians for believing in Christ-God, our Heavenly Father, or the Bible...nor would I-I am one and will stand up and say so anytime and any place. So why is questioning the Bible, or our understanding of who God is, or could be, or other possibilities deserved of your derision? Or anyone's?

Just thinking about vast possibilites that are not contradictory to anything in the Bible-expcept for our perceptions of what the Bible says, what we've been taught it says or to believe...and showing from where my thoughts are rooted in scripture, and asking if in scripture there is anything known to contradict what I say...because I know of none contradicting these thoughts! I find that exciting-because it means there is more to think about!

But again, I am bashed for my thinking outside of the mainstream Judeo-Christian acceptable religious box

This is the conspiracy I speak of. I was once part of it. Thinking that to speak of the possibilites of God sbeyond what we know or have been taught by men, somehow undermines His divinity and authority-it does not and I am not trying to do that. But I was taught anyone who speaks openly about Biblical possiblities is an athiest at best, and a satantist at worst! That to speak contrary to what is acceptable, means you are trying to discdredit what is true-oh balogna! This I see as error now, does no one else?

... why to merely ponder the possibilities...even interpret passages of the Bible ourselves it is blasphemous, satanic, evil or Christian bashing?...or to question anything in the Bible is the same?

I believe the Bible, I just believe as the apostles complanied in the New Testament that they had much to teach the people-beyond the ordinences and basics of salvation over and over again repeatedly-but that the people were not ready, willing or able to understand/comprehend...they (apostles)complained that the people were still like babes wanting for milk...instead of being fully mature and wanting for meat...the meat being the more they had to teach.

But Christ even warned them not to cast their pearls before swine...

I want the meat...I want the pearls-this is where my head and heart is when I read the Bible in my life today...because I already know the basics of salvation and have partaken them, I will not "weary the apostles" so to speak-by reading the Bible in the same ways looking for nothing and recieiving nothing more than I already have...nor will I ask for or depend on milk when I am ready and hunger for more-I will search to satisfy the hunger of my heart and my mind and feast on the scriptures while doing so-no greater source...

but in so doing...I will stop and ponder what they mean...and the possibilities...if I am wrong, then when that is confirmed to me, will it not strengthn me as much as when I am correct? Will it not? If I am not stopped in my tracks by those who say do not question, do not suppose...do not explore the possibilities of your understanding or the implications in the scriptures

why can't I be a good Christian, and accept there are more possibilites than we understand? No one has answers for me, and no one likes to say that there are any possibilities...why does it threaten us as Christians to believe there is more than we have been taught by men? I know I am saved by Grace and needn't know anything else or do anything else for salvation...but does that mean my growth and understanding should be stunted at this point forever?

Sorry to go off on a rant, and If I offend/irritated anyone-I am sorry. Not my intention. I attacked nor bashed no one except those who conitunually don't read the Bible and ponder things for themselves to come up with answers or thoughts that haven't just been handed to them, but who preach to me what is and is not acceptable to think and believe or bash me for thinking differently than mainstream Judeo-Christianity.

If I seem defensive-I am -I obviously feel misunderstood, my intentions miscontrued and bashed just for speaking my mind and pre-judged just by the fact others have had thinly veiled contempt for Christianity and exploited it through such a means as questioning the belief even through the Bible....but does it mean everyone who ponders scriptures oopenly does the same?

FTR I am not saying I believe everything I even proposed! I am just thinking about these things, taking those thoughts for a walk...but feel condemned for doing so. I feel like I could very well reply...

Here we go again; another person who bashes me for questioning my own beliefs and my own understanding of the Bible as I try to make my way in this world and in this life....searching for truth and sound reason and finding instead not even thinly veiled derision instead.

TC-did you really find my tone contemptuous towards Christianity? It is merely a tad tinged with contempt for those who always deride me for asking questions and pointing these things out and *playing* "Devil's Advocate" as it were at times even. Why is it wrong to read the Bible and point these scriptures and things out for thought and conversation?

I assure you, your lack of understanding of what you try and read is not a conspiracy.

No the conspiracy is an unintentional one that has told me since I was 4 years old not to question what I am taught or told, or what doesn't 'need to be known'

No, indeed my lack of understanding is not a conspiracy, but the covering up of the fact we do not know everything, and that to question the things we do not know, or suppose upon possibilities of the unknown is evil...seems conspiatorial to me. Though most involved in such conspiracy participate unwittingly

...and who is the author of this conspiracy...who better than the opposition of Christ, to keep people in the dark, would propose that to question what we know...to want to grow in knowlege, wisdom and understanding...to want to read the Bible and scour it's words for truth beyond what has been presented...is evil.

The opposition controls our knowledge in this way it seems by our fear that to question what we've been taught...to ponder possibilites outside the box is just pure evil...to speak openly of it is Christian bashing...and so many Christians jump on the bandwagon and thus keeps people like me in my place...wondering/pondering alone and afraid to speak out and question and grow

it started when I was about 4 and asked my Daddy "Why did Lucifer fall? Why did he turn bad? What tempted him and pulled him away from God" and my father laughed at me...saying...Well, thats just what happened...don't worry about the "why?"

Later as I grew older and more articualte (I'm not so articulate since GW1/ GWI but I once had a sharper mind)I asked more precisely of the origins of evil...was Satan part of the plan, did God create evil, or is there an existant opposition to all, thus evil is as old from the begining like God?

"..aw...you just think too much...don't think too much and you wont worry about thse things..." I was told even then

By the way, this shallow line of reasoning is nothing new. Obviously, you had a bandwagon-joiner, and I am sure there are many more that haven't read any more or better than you, so, what can I say? Enjoy! What I do want you to know, though, is that I am fully aware that this is not a sincere attempt at conspiracy, but an obvious and typical attack on the Judeo-Christian belief system.

What I want you to know, and I hope you are humble enough to try to see that perhaps you are mistaken, and that you are wrong.

I am fully aware of what you thought I was trying to do now, but I assure you, I am sincere, and I am a Christian, and I do not thinking questioning the Bible, or thinking of possibilities, even fun and far-fetched ones or bashing a bit those that bash me for it... is Christian bashing as a whole.

It is ignorant and shallow to me to think I cannot be a Christian who loves the Lord with my might mind body and strength and still question what I've been taught, told, or read in the Bible, or ponder in my head or heart the possibilities-even if far-fetched-what is the harm? What is the offense? What is the risk? What is the benefit...I might learn and grow...

As in life, when I propose such, no one discusses the scriptures I speak of or the possibilites I propose...instead it turns into how I shouldn't be thinking or speaking like this, how it is Anti-God, anti-Christian...or here Christian Bashing...

Or indeed by those who don't believe to say "Aha! See the Bible is wrong and all you've been taught is wrong! Come to the dark side..."

...whatever happens to the actual subjects at hand...the actual scriptures...what they mean...what they could mean...or the possibilies explored...what would that mean and does it contradict or co-exist with Christian beliefs...and why...why does the subject at hand get completely lost or twisted

*sigh*

bit of advice as it will show your ignorance of the rest of scripture (no offense). Ignorance is not knowing, stupidity is knowing and doing/saying error anyway.

OneGodJesus-So show me where I error...where is my ignorance apparent-please astound me with your vast Biblical knowledge. I am very open minded and look forward to your reply. This is what I sought from the begining!

I am not being sarcastic-I know tone is hard to interpret-but if you think me ignorant Biblically, please expound. As for evilbibleguy.com or whatever I have no idea of what you are talking about-you lost me there.

Guys, it is clear that the Christian God is a creation of the human imagination, just like all other Gods prior to that one. The variety of available Gods prove it.

But the universe could still be a creation of one or more entities outside of it...

ok here we go.......
theres atman which is the creator of all things big and small..locally and universally......

the atmam created the brahmin ...the brahmin is the physical creator and basically physically works for the atman......with out the atman the brahmin could not exist.......

then brahmin created many dieties to watch and rule over different things big and small ...local and universal......these dieties or gods cannot exist without brahmin , and the brahmin is were they draw there strength......

the hebrew god in the bible is a dietie ..that is why he says theyre not to whorship other gods......most people when they read the bible think god is talking to the universe or at least everyone on earth.....but hes not he is speaking to the hebrews ...he is there god and therefore wants them to whorship him alone.......if were anything other than a dietie ..like say if he was atman or brahmin he would not tell the hebrews to destroy other nations and there gods because he would realise these gods are part of him, and that by whorshiping them they whorship the brahmin/atman...

Originally posted by think2much
because I have a personal relationship with my savior and a testimony of the truthfulness both of Him, and of the Bible-one confirmed to my by the His spirit-by the Holy Ghost.

Have you spoken in tongues? If not you do not have the Holy Ghost. Sorry there is ample scripture to back this up. If you like you can U2U me and see why.

Originally posted by think2much However, to follow Him, must I adopt all the points of view of the masses of His followers without questioning things, and coming to conclusions myself?

Abosolutly not, you must read and pray. The Word says the Holy Ghost will lead you and guide you into all truth.

Originally posted by think2muchWhy am I the subject of your derision when you don't know me and nothing I said in my post was intended to be anti-Christian. I've not posted much here at ATS, but I guarantee you I've never done anything remotely Anti-Christian or Christian bashing.

Because you are staing something that is contrary to the word in a public forum, you must expect that others will challenge your points of view. Just have the scripture from more that a single book to back your theories. That is what I meant by the scriptures backing up themselves.

Originally posted by think2muchI do get so sick of most traditional Judeo-Christians continually bashing ME whenever I think outside the religious box....or the lame answers that we are just "not supposed to have all the answers." as my father conintually discouraged my intellectual-spiritual inquisitiveness even as a child and insisted I just memorize scripture and believe what was told to me
...and not to worry my pretty little head about the more existential things that were too lofty for me...or for mortals in general.

There is also scripture that says that some will wrestle with it to thier own destruction.

Originally posted by think2muchI understand there are people that attempt to discredit Christianity through such inspection and discussion of the Bible-but in reading my post, is that truly what you thought I was doing? I am sure I do come right out and say I think many believers don't even know what is in the Bible, or take time to read the Bible and ponder the possibilities of what is revealed in it

You have stumbled upon a truism (sp?) and it may be pointed out that if you do not study with the Holy Ghost to guide you, you are just reading a book as some in this forum have already stated (albeit that was not thier intent by saying it was just a book, I say it was because they lack the wisdom imparted by the Holy Ghost)

Originally posted by think2muchOr is it the fact I openly discuss the literal words of the Bible and question our understanding of then and our perceptions of God? I do question the widely accepted Judeo-Christian beliefs when I read the Bible and come across such subjects that there are no answers for, or in my personal journey I take pause to ponder the possiblilities...but to do so is apparently blasphemous and invites contempt from my fellow Christians-and people like you-why is that?!

Because you lack a foundation of reading the WHOLE WORD and that even without the benefit of divine guidance.

Originally posted by think2much So why is questioning the Bible, or our understanding of who God is, or could be, or other possibilities deserved of your derision? Or anyone's?

You can question all you want but as stated above, question with the Word and guidance, not in a public forum. It is a personal relationship with Him that matters anyway, not what people think of your version of who God is.

Originally posted by think2much
OneGodJesus-So show me where I error...where is my ignorance apparent-please astound me with your vast Biblical knowledge. I am very open minded and look forward to your reply. This is what I sought from the begining!

I am not being sarcastic-I know tone is hard to interpret-but if you think me ignorant Biblically, please expound. As for evilbibleguy.com or whatever I have no idea of what you are talking about-you lost me there.

Ok, here we go:

Foundation of why I said you were in error.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Timothy 3:16)

For the atheists out there, they boldly proclaim "There is no God; therefore any record of Him, His sayings, and His dealings with man are equally untrue" and the funnier thing is that the agnostic stands his ground by saying God's exiastance can neither be proved nor disproved. He holds a similar opinion as the atheist concerning the book of truth, but the Bible declares God and reveals His interaction with man and His plan for the ages.

As for the common Christian, while accepting and expounding a rather vague and lifeless concept of God, has serious doubts relating to the perfection and validity of the Bible. This is especially true regarding creation, the Flood, miracles, the virgin birth, the secind coming of the Lord and a literal interpretation of Heaven and Hell as it it related to judgement and eternal retribution (although it was reserved for angels man got suckered by Satan and now is a partaker in it too).

The claims of the Bible has remained persistant to be the written Word of God. It is inseparable from God himself, as you look at John 1:1 you see that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

Peter knew what was going on and he wasn't a learned man by any stretch. He was just a simple fisherman. He writes in 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in the old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost", see that Holy Ghost thing again.

Until you understand the Word it will never reveal itself to you. You may get bits and pieces here and there but not all of it, because it is not PART of you. What do I mean by that statrement, you mean like duct taping it to me? Nope, I mean by getting the Holy Ghost. As an example from scripture, James 1:21 says it is "grafted into us" (paraphrase) and in Jeremiah 31:33 we read "After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts".

I will give you this bit of advice concerning the scriptures and any self taught interpretation of the Word without the benefit of divine guidance it comes from Romans 1:23 it says in part "the glory of the uncorruptable God into an image made like to corruptable man, and into birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things", this is talking about man creating of him what we will. His Word is real plain about who He is. Just do this with a sincere heart:

Jesus, I don't know who you are really. I have some concepts, but not all truth. Please forgive me my sins and fill me with your Holy Spirit (don't make any bargains with Him here just ask forgiveness plain and simple). Start thanking Him for the forgiveness and don't stop until He gives you His Spirit (if you meant what you said He will asit is a promise that He made if you Repent). Now after that find a local Apostolic Church that teaches Oneness and Jesus NAME baptism and get that filth of sin washed away. Go back to the Word and NOW read it. It will come alive to you and take on a whole new meaning. It really is a living document and cannot be changed as He said "it is finished". The only part that is continuing is the book of acts and that is only because He has not come back, but nothing more can be added to the scripture itself, just in whom is added to the body daily.

Do this and I guarantee your eyes WILL be opened. 2 Corinthians 7:10
"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death". The only thing you have to lose is a false perception of what you think you know and if you have any preconceived notions of whatever your denomination thinks is right. Look what you have to gain if I am right though, Ephesians 1:13" And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,", no one will hound you from the Apostolic church if you drop out. Be warned though, it ain't some kind of social club like some of the mega churches, so don't expect great numbers of people in the church when you go. Remember that old saying in the Word "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it", go find it now before it is too late.

Philippians 2:12
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling"


Consider this too, there will be a resurrection of all the dead, both just and unjust. The Word says:
"Marvel not this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God . . . and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" (Revelation 20:12-13) also read Daniel 12:2; I Corinthians 15:13-23
On my statement thingy for my signature I say I'd rather be wrong and make it anyway because"
"It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (II Corinthians 5:10).

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. . . .Then shall he also say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:32-34, 41, 46).

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Have you spoken in tongues? If not you do not have the Holy Ghost. Sorry there is ample scripture to back this up. If you like you can U2U me and see why.

Why can't we all see why?

The Word says the Holy Ghost will lead you and guide you into all truth.

However, there is one ultimate qualifying 'proof' of the Holy Spirit at work: love of one another.

And then the ability to discern truth from false in every situation.

However, speaking in 'tongues' is not a sure sign--if truly a sign at all. It is religion and is an external show of some sort if not done for the sole purpose of communication of God's grace--according to the circumstances listed by Paul in Corinthians.

Because you are staing something that is contrary to the word in a public forum, you must expect that others will challenge your points of view. Just have the scripture from more that a single book to back your theories. That is what I meant by the scriptures backing up themselves.

Personally, I nothing to fault in think2much's points--that were given for consideration--totally undeserving of such scathing scorn and unrighteous criticism.

There is also scripture that says that some will wrestle with it to thier own destruction.

Exactly!!!

You have stumbled upon a truism (sp?) and it may be pointed out that if you do not study with the Holy Ghost to guide you, you are just reading a book as some in this forum have already stated (albeit that was not thier intent by saying it was just a book, I say it was because they lack the wisdom imparted by the Holy Ghost)

Then it follows that your ability to discern would be flawless and substantiated, right? As well as being able to consistently identify others who also are led by the same Spirit of truth in their heart? This means that unity of spirit would be evidence of mutual manifestation--do you have any examples?

Because you lack a foundation of reading the WHOLE WORD and that even without the benefit of divine guidance.

Pardon me if I missed something in this thread--but what brings you to say such a thing? It is an assumption or an uninformed judgment?

I personally can't speak for anyone else, but I have the foundation you speak of, and then some--as well as the benefit you mention, as well. And I see no reason for your response--or justification for your attitude--if you truly are imbued with what you claim. I also don't see any reason for not stating my case outright--in defense of another's right to use their brain and heart to seek the truth of our Creator... God doesn't object to questions which are made in an honest effort to understand. Judgments, however, are ill-advised.

You can question all you want but as stated above, question with the Word and guidance, not in a public forum. It is a personal relationship with Him that matters anyway, not what people think of your version of who God is.

Where did that come from? What is the purpose of a public discussion board if not to discuss--and the topic is appropriate to this particular forum.

Also--isn't the fifth amendment still in effect?

If it offends you that someone would dare to freely discuss with an open mind and inoffensive attitude--then maybe you should think about what you are doing and where you are doing it at--ATS. Not abiding by the rules seems to be the only prohibition, and I don't see that taking place.

What's the problem, truly?

I can't say much about the content or interpretation of scriptures from the bible as I am sure everyone else could run rings around me quoting chapter and verse, what I would like to say is that there are often discrepancies or differences of opinion in the bible because of its historical development. Monotheism seems to be a relatively new development as historically most cultures in the area worshipped multiple gods. These old beliefs and presences could make the development of a monotheistic belief difficult for the people who have worshipped multiple gods and the teachers may be trying to explain the concepts in a way that the new converts could understand.

The bible also grew over a great many years from oral traditions that may originally have included tales from an earlier non-monotheistic culture and references from many to one god may not have been successful until much later in the evolution of the religion. This is one way that multiple deities would make an appearance in the texts yet not be explained by our current understanding of religion that has been primarily monotheistic for 2000 years or more.

In one aspect I prefer to view the bible as an evolutional documentation of a development of monotheism. This aspect does not really touch or degrade anyone's personal beliefs in the content, it is just a notation of how the books became gathered and united into the Bible we have today.

I don't want to offend anyone's beliefs, this is just an analysis of the area and time of where the texts developed.

Religion is like anything that man put his hands, thoughts and Ideas into, it fits only the ones that are link together in the same believes.

As you know like everybody else in these boards that are of religious faith, the bible is the written testament of man with the inspiration that they thought was given to them by their God.

Because it was carried on by so many through centuries it took the shape of many men inspirations and understanding of that God.

Occurs given the hardships on ancient times and their limited knowledge of their surroundings that is how the inspired word of God took form.

And that is why in this day and time a lot of people of faith can not get together and have the same understanding and interpretation of the bible without fighting each other.

That is why we have so many Christian and also so many Christian denominations.

The bible even when is the same all over people can not read it with the same understanding.

Sometimes I wonder if that was the whole idea of the bible after all or just that some of the carriers of the word of god were more intelligent when others were not at all.

I guess that is why it was so hard when the redactors got together and compiled, so I imagine that they took upon themselves to fix it here and there.

Still the bible has become an icon for the Christian believer all over the word and occurs in their faith the only true written word of God even if a thousand men dip in to help write it.

make you wonder right? why we need so many self appointed men of good to help understand it.

[edit on 31-12-2005 by marg6043]

Originally posted by think2much

bit of advice as it will show your ignorance of the rest of scripture (no offense). Ignorance is not knowing, stupidity is knowing and doing/saying error anyway.

OneGodJesus-So show me where I error...where is my ignorance apparent-please astound me with your vast Biblical knowledge. I am very open minded and look forward to your reply. This is what I sought from the begining!

I am not being sarcastic-I know tone is hard to interpret-but if you think me ignorant Biblically, please expound. As for evilbibleguy.com or whatever I have no idea of what you are talking about-you lost me there.

i think he's referring to me as evilbible.com guy, but i'm actually "skepticsannotatedbible.com" guy.

but as queen said, why can't we all see this ample biblical evidence for speaking in tongues? all i can think of is pentecost...

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

_______________

I think this says it all. God claims sovereingty. Since this thread isn't actually about a "conspiracy" it probably won't be around long, but what I can get out of Think2much post is maybe confusion? If you read the Bible, just read it and that's all. God will tell you what you need to know to reveal what it means in truth. If you believe in Christ as Lord and redeemer and trust in Him, you will be fine. If you get hung up on religions and other peoples wrongs you may lose the way. This is why God has to be front and center.

As for tongues. It is a gift of God for the believer given since Pentecost. But what is more important is the source of all things which is God. Seek God and trust in His Son Jesus and you'll do fine.

Fromabove

I think this says it all. God claims sovereingty. Since this thread isn't actually about a "conspiracy" it probably won't be around long, but what I can get out of Think2much post is maybe confusion?

I am confused-indeed-but ONLY that I seem anti-Christian for questioning the Bible and it's scriptures and different perceptions of it, and am even more confused why when I speak about these things, not just here, but anywhere, I am seem to be a heretic!

I am seen to be needing/seeking to be saved by some...

...and by others as if I am discounting the validity of the Bible! By both those who would be for this or against it-and I am NOT!

All because I dare to point out scriptures that go unnoticed at best...certainly unexplained....and at worst completely covered up!

And this continual ignorance of the existance of these scriptures, or the disregarding of specific scriptures by most mainstream Judeo-Christians certainly seems to be a covering up of sorts of unexplained scriptures!

...and the thoughts that could logically progress from them...none of which dispute the validity of the Bible, nor the sovereignty of God, but are still seen as heretical because they threaten the security of believers by proposing there is possibly more to know and understand-why is that so scary or perceived as evil?

I will have to rethink how I should represent the conspiracy I see and am faced with....admittedly I made this thread off the top of my head and no one seems to have gotten the real point...lost in my Biblical speculations of the races of gods and jokes about ATS etc....

I am not confused about God, nor the Bible, nor the Holy Spirit, discernment, or how to be saved.

I know who God is, I know who my savior is, and I know the Bible is the living word of God...

but just because He proclaims his sovereignty in the vs you quoted Fromabove, it still doesn't say for instance, that He doesn't have a wife, or there are no other gods in worlds we don't know of, etc...

Nor does it- or ANYTHING ANYONE posted here- answer any of my original questions about the "our" and "us" in Genesis-the KJV of Genesis no less- the proclaimed most acurrately english translated version no less.

... or the possibilities...of like the sons of God spoken of in the Bible...or my logical train of thought to follow those scriptures and talk of a man (Adam) leaving his father and mother to become one in the flesh with Eve...meaning more about us leaving our mother and father in heaven to become flesh...as well as meaning man and women becoming one when married

why are these things and scriptures not spoken of, not clarified, not understood, and what would be contradictory about those thoughts with Christianity as a whole so as to cover them up and not discuss them openly?!?!?!?! Without reprimands!

But instead in the answers that I am a Christian basher, or that I need to speak in tongues to prove I have the Holy Spirit to know if I am properly discerning the meaning of the scriptures....

.... or that because God claims sovereignty, so that somehow implies/proves he means to say there exist no other gods at all at any level anywhere...

....or in those who would say such scripture then lends to the belief of the Bible's fallacies...

I just continue to see an inadvertant cover-up of the truth-of the "more" in the Bible than meets the eye

...the MORE TRUTH AND KNOWLEDGE...the MORE that the eyes of the believers do NOT see... or ignore, or don't understand, so don't question....all so they do not grow

...and more that the eyes of the non-beleivers do not see- so they will not understand and convert-so they mistake it and misuse it to their folly.

and anyone else is....well just confused...or a heretic...or a Christian basher

I do conceed I have been inept at identifying the conspiracy I speak of-it is very plain and obvious to me, but it was not my intent to be so inept of course in trying to speak of it! And I certainly wasn't trying to Christian bash, or debate the Bible either!

Even though the conspiracy I believe in is even more clearly evidenced to me by the very posts in reply-Most all of them- I am unable to clearly identify it to others, explain it or expose it, and I don't think anyone read my follow-up post trying to be clearer of my personal stand either so likely no one will bother reading this as well...

So, I and have obviously been inept in trying what I endeavored, or coming to any understanding myself, except to see the same problem, and conspiracy I always have

...so I appologize for my ineffective writing and expression

but I will try...another time...in another thread...

As nearly no one here speaks to answer my questions, or think of the ideas proposed...even if in jest at times for food for thought...no one can refute it Biblically though either, and no one could dare convince me it makes the Bible falliable in some way-it does not! It makes your understanding, as much as that of believers- fallible

and no one understands the conspiracy I was unable to articulate

I guess everyone is blinded by the truth



[edit on 2-1-2006 by think2much]

Feeling like the bible judges you?

"Judge not lest thee be judged"

It is the word?

Then apply the rules of the bible to the bible.

Maybe that is the real bible code.

"The meek shall inherit the Earth"

Then only use lower case letters.

"Blessed are the children of God"

Then spell out the words phonetically, not how they are spelled, but how they should be spelled.

"We are currently in Satan's Dominion"

Then everything here must be the opposite of how it really is, so everthing is backwards here, then how it is in Heaven.

LANGUAGE ......

Lan g wej

jew g nal

jew G nail

What does G stand for?

What do you think the most powerful word is that begins with G?

hmmmm

God perhaps?

Jew, God's nail.

language.

Do you have parts of your mind that do not communicate with other parts of your mind?

Stands to reason that if we think with more than one mind, everthing we create also has duality in it.

Who is behind the plain Biblical deceptions?

We are. I am. You are.

[edit on 2-1-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

Who is behind the plain Biblical deceptions? We are. I am. You are.

umm...did you take my title and cut and paste your whole reply from a religious point reference you've written. it was interesting.... but entirely in left field, espeically if you've read anything I written here...but I did like your closing sentitment as quoted


I give up! (no not really, just on this thread)



[edit on 2-1-2006 by think2much]