The Case for UFO's

Part I

I say again, there's no REASONABLE doubt that UFO's and the beings who fly them do exist. I havn't heard one shred of evidence that disputes the evidence for UFO's yet. You can see some pictures of UFO's here: ufoartwork.com...

You can read examples of UFO'S in ancient manuscripts here:
bibleufo.com...

You can see video's of UFO's here:
www.projectprove.com...

You can read some eyewitness testimony from Presidents to Astronauts here: bibleufo.com...

See, you can't say that UFO's do not exist because you don't want to accept the evidence. There's tons of evidence for the existence of UFO's and the beings who fly them and there's hardly any evidence against. You can't ask people to suspend REASON because you are blinded by a belief system. This is the only way that you can't see what's directly in front of your face. You start with a priori that UFO's can't exist or that Ufology is illogical. Instead if you would just look at all of the evidence without a bias, you will see that there's no REASONABLE argument that counters the evidence for UFO's. This is not a general statement, it's just the truth.

This is not like saying that flying pink monkey's exist. There's no evidence to back up that statement. There's plenty of evidence to back up the statement that UFO's and the beings who fly them do exist. You can't say, just because I don't want to see it because of my personal belief system, that these things don't exist. I have heard people on this board say things like,"it looks to real to be real". This is just suspending REASON in favor of your belief system. You can't say in this situation that I don't know what that's a picture of, but it's not a UFO. What you are saying with this statement is, I don't know what this is but it's not a UFO based on my personal belief and I'm not going to investigate these things further. Sorry, but REASON doesn't work this way. This is why skeptics can't debate ufology within reason, because reason asks for a verdict.

It's what's called circumstantial evidence and direct evidence and we send people to jail all the time based on circumstantial evidence. This is because human beings can reason to a conclusion of guilt or innocence after hearing the evidence. You can't hear evidence for UFO's and say that it's not this or it's not that without any REASONED explanation to counter the evidence with. Let me lay out some of the evidence.

First, I will lay out what circumstantial evidence means.

Circumstantial evidence is indirect evidence. Circumstantial evidence is the result of combining seemingly unrelated facts that, when considered together, can be used to infer a conclusion. Circumstantial evidence is usually a theory, supported by a significant quantity of corroborating evidence.

It goes on to say:

Circumstantial evidence is used in criminal courts to establish guilt or innocence through reasoning.....A popular misconception is that circumstantial evidence is less valid or less important than direct evidence. This is only partly true: direct evidence is generally considered more powerful, but successful criminal prosecutions often rely largely on circumstantial evidence, and civil charges are frequently based on circumstantial or indirect evidence. Much of the evidence against Timothy McVeigh was circumstantial, for example. Speaking about McVeigh's trial, University of Michigan law professor Robert Precht said, "Circumstantial evidence can be, and often is much more powerful than direct evidence."

en.wikipedia.org...

Direct Evidence:

Evidence that stands on its own to prove an alleged fact, such as testimony of a witness who says she saw a defendant pointing a gun at a victim during a robbery. Direct proof of a fact, such as testimony by a witness about what that witness personally saw or heard or did.

www.lectlaw.com...

In the case of Ufology you have circumstantial evidence and direct evidence.

Here's some direct evidence from eyewitness testimony. The way that you evaluate eyewitness testimony is you look at the credibility of the witness that's making the claim. Let's look at some of the witnesses.

President Jimmy Carter
"I am convinced that UFOs exist because I have seen one."
Former U.S. President, Nobel Peace Prize winner and nominee.

Dr. J. C. MacKenzie
"It seemed fantastic that there could be any such thing. At first, the temptation was to say it was all nonsense, a series of optical illusions. But there have been so many reports from RESPONSIBLE observers that they cannot be ignored. It seems hardly possible that all these reports could be due to optical illusions."
MacKenzie was Chairman of the Canadian Atomic Energy Control Board and former president of the National Research Council.

I use the quote from Dr. MacKenzi to magnify my point. The testimony is coming from extremeley credible witnesses. It's coming from Presidents, govt. officials, military personel. astronauats, police officers and other well respected people from various communities. This would be called SUPER evidence in court. If you want to see more quotes, go to the Bible UFO link above or just google it. Also check out: www.ufoevidence.org...

I have more evidence to layout and this post is pretty long already. Part II will cover cave paintings and ancient manuscripts. This is at least a 5 part series because the evidence is overwhelming.

THANK YOU, LORD JESUS!!
quantumtheologica.blogspot.com...

polomontana,

Nice thread so far.

You should also include Grant Cameron's site www.presidentialufo.com... .

Thanks Lost Shaman and that's a good site.

Part II

I will start with ancient manuscripts and then move on to cave drawings and UFO artwork.

First, a little background information is needed for this part. I'm a Christian and I actually realized that these things exist by reading the Bible. When I first realized that the Bible was full of descriptions of UFO's and contact with the beings that fly them, I was very troubled. I didn't want to believe it, but REASON wouldn't let me deny it. The Bible says, Come and Let us Reason together and a Christian should be able to Reason with his Father(God).

Now, here are some verses from the Bible and then I will add some text from other ancient manuscripts. Actually, after looking through some sites, it's so much evidence that this whole thread will be on UFO's in the Bible. Part III will cover other manuscripts, cave drawings and paintings.


First, here are some good reference points.
www.bibleufo.com...
ufo.whipnet.org...
www.endtimeprophecy.net...
You can also google Bible-UFO connection and you will find some good websites.

First Clouds in the Bible. I submit that the Clouds in the Bible are UFO's. You have a cloud that hovers, glows in the dark, it takes people up into the cloud and a voice comes out of the cloud.

Exodus 24:18 24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

Moses went inside of the Cloud and the cloud took him up to the mountains.

Exodus 34:5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.

The Lord descends in a Cloud.

Numbers 9: 22 Or whether it were two days, or a month, or a year, that the cloud tarried upon the tabernacle, remaining hereon, the children of Israel abode in their tents, and journeyed not: but when it was taken up, they journeyed.

The Cloud hovered over the tent of the congregation for up to a year at a time. The Journey was dependent on the flight of the spacecraft.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

The Lord rides in a Cloud.

Isaiah 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows

This speaks for itself.

Luke 9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

This is the Transfiguration on the Mount. They ENTER into the Cloud and a voice comes out of the Cloud.

11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The Two Witnesses are taken up to Heaven in a Cloud.

This actually might have to be two parts because it's pretty long already, but this is very important.

Psalm 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

Here it talks about the Chariots of God and remember Elijah was taken in a Chariot of Fire. Flying Chariots and Clouds so far and there's more.

Now, I want to talk about what Ezekial saw. First, we can say he saw something that could fly but it wasn't a creature. In those days there were only clouds and birds in the sky and Ezekial described the flying craft in the terms of those times. What gives it away is that Ezekiel talks about wheels. He knew what wheels looked like but he had never seen the flying craft before. There are no creatures with wheels. Josef Blumrich wanted to debunk the book, the Chariots of the gods and he set out as a skeptic. Well, he was a NASA engineer and when he read Ezekials account he it sounded like descriptions of things he had designed. Ezekiel actually knew that they were not creatures.

Ezekiel 1:4-5 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding F3 itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

See, Ezekiel said the LIKENESS of four living creatures. He used creatures to describe the flying crafts because birds and clouds were the only thing in the sky at the time. He goes on to say that these creatures(spaceships) didn't turn where they went. So they could fly from side to side without turning in the direction that they were flying like a helicopter can do. He then talks about each ship having four wings that are joined to one another like a helicopter and then he says:

Ezekiel 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

Anyone who has taken a ride in a Helicopter knows this sound and if you havn't just watch a video of a helicopter and crank up the volume. I think that these were either helicopters or a ship with helicopter like qualities.

When the ship stood it was on it's wheels and Ezekiel said the spirit of the creatures was in the wheels and that's because the ship seemed like it was being guided by the wheels when it landed. You can read the first chapter of Ezekiel here.

studylight.org...§ion=1&translation=kjv&oq=&sr=1

This will be Part IIa and I will add Part IIb shortly.

I think that some people can't see these things because there belief system blinds them to the truth. Many atheist, secularist and some skeptics start with the priori that UFO's and the beings who fly them can't exist. This is to protect the belief system because if you allow for these things to exist, you then have to ask do they have anything to do with why we are here or do what about life after death? You can't let your personal belief system block you from the truth and I can say based on the evidence that I don't have any REASONABLE doubt that these beings have been visiting us and man has recorded them every step of the way through cave drawings, paintings, ancient manuscripts, pictures and video.

Remember the standards. I don't have a shadow of a doubt that God exists because of my Faith in His Son Jesus Christ. I don't have any Reasonable doubt that these things exists based on the evidence.

THANK YOU, LORD JESUS!!
quantumtheologica.blogspot.com...

[edit on 31-12-2005 by polomontana]

Well i am not completly convience that the things that fly the Ufo's are aliens...You dont got any proof for suporting that there is a alien in a Ufo.

For the ufo's

There maybe other explanations than a extraterrestrial spaceship do you got any prove that it came from other galaxie or planet....The answer NO.

So it could be man made and so it could be and ET space ship.For now there isnt enough proof..

Because a president could see a test plane to or a man made fliying saucer.

I have seen 2 Ufo's my self and still dont think that they are ET space ships.
Of course they exist but not evry video out there is a Ufosome are hoax.

You have to have in mind that there plenty of technology avalible that we dont know about....So if i got to see a video of an ET that is given to the public by the Gov there i would belief but for now i will remain in the midle.

Stketcher, what alternative explanations? I mean what's your alternative explanation to cave drawings, paintings, ancient manuscripts, pictures and video plus eyewitness testimony from Presidents, military, govt. officials, astronauts, police officers and more? I have seen some that are outside the realm of reason like blimps or everyones just imagining what they saw, these things don't fly as explanations when REASON is applied, these are explanations to protect a belief system(atheism included). See, the way that you avoid the truth is by starting with the priori that UFO's aren't a reasonable explanation for these things. This way you can be comfortable with any reductio ad absurdum(reduction to the absurd).

Part III will be cave drawings and ancient manuscripts.

UFO's will be an ongoing interest for many years, but there has been a drought in ground breaking UFO events for a couple of years now. It is OK to believe, it is OK to have faith, it's fine to have conviction, but NONE of these hold weight or are grounds for pushing anecdotal stories as proof. Solid Incontrivertable proof is always missing. Qualified Evidence to make an absoulute case simply does not exist. May never exist.

UFOs and Alien Connection
There has not been one shred of physical evidence to suggest Aliens are piloting Unidentified Flying Objects. Stories, lore, and accounts are not proof.

Who said you have to make an ABSOLUTE case? Only Sith's speak in absolutes( I just couldn't pass the Star Wars moment up).

I said there isn't any REASONABLE doubt. Most jurors after a case cannot say without a shadow of a doubt that a person is guilty or innocent, because alot of times they don't have alot of direct evidence like you have in Ufology. This is how much the judicial system trusts reason. They know that humans can look at circumstantial evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion. Look at Scott Peterson's case vs. Colin Ferguson. In the case against Ferguson, the crazed subway gunmen you had direct evidence from eyewitnesses, in the Peterson case there were no eyewitness accounts. Reason can look at the available evidence and reach a conclusion, so much so that people can get sent to Death Row based on the reason of 12 jurors.

So, the skeptic says we can't look at the evidence available today for UFO's and then come to a conclusion based on reason because there's no ABSOLUTE proof. How do those who study ufology let these skeptics get away with such nonsense? I havn't heard a skeptic yet give me any reasonable explanation for these things. They tend to think that the absence of evidence means that you can't draw a REASONABLE conclusion based on the evidence available. With this standard I can show that half of America do not love their parents. I can go into a court of law and I could find evidence in someones past, who claims that they love their parents, that makes it look like they don't. If absolute proof was the standard and not reasonable doubt, I would win every case.

This is why the skeptic can make any unreasonable argument. They say, since there could be other explantions, you can't draw a reasonable conclusion based on the available evidence. That's like saying that you couldn't convict Scott Peterson based on the available evidence because there might be a satanic cult out there that did it. It doesn't work this way. With the skeptics line of reasoning I could then argue that there's really purple rain and that there's a Starbuck's on Mars. See, since to them UFO's are an unreasonable conclusion to begin with, they can then make any unreasonable argument. This is their belief system at work.

There's more evidence for UFO's than there is for black holes. Look at this article from 2001 about black holes:
www.space.com...

The first direct evidence? Ufo's have tons of direct evidence from eyewitness accounts. How many people have seen a black hole? Here's a question from ask an astrophysicist.

The Question
(Submitted March 18, 1997)

We are deeply indebted to you if you can help us in obtaining two representative images about: 1)the real image (picture) of a "black hole" (photographed) 2)the most distant part of the Universe ever photographed.

The Answer
1) There are no "real" pictures of a black hole.

imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Well aint that something? How many pictures are there of UFO's? The reason why people just take it on face value that black holes exist is because black holes do not threaten their personal belief system. UFO's threaten their belief system. Just imagine an atheist or secularist having to accept that beings with higher intelligence might exist. This will shatter there entire belief system. See you can infer that black holes exist, just like you can infer that UFO"s exist based on the evidence.

This is not intended to be offensive in nature but most likely you will take it that way.

First where do you get this skewed view that an athiest cannot beleive in UFO's? Personally i am considered an athiest by most and i have no problem believeing in other life forms outside of this planet existing , i dont beleive they made us though. In your posts im interpeting it as though you seem to think aliens are gods, which would explain your mentality that athiests would have a mind shattering overload if they beleived in aliens or UFO's which beleive me this is not the case.

As for all of the eviendence in which you claim is overwelming its all well below curcumstantial. Not one of the photos ive ever seen that have not been determined fakes are even close to what you could consider quality. A good percentage of them could litterally be anything for that matter they could even be an earth born life form which we have yet to discover or understand. Eye witness reports can also be just about anything from mental anquish to optical illuision to natural occuring phenomena. Personally i have seen what would be considered a UFO on numerous occasions all of which i had additional witnesses during said occurences. I have also seen ball lightining and see it menuever in such a manner it appeared to be controled by some higher power , im familiar with naturaly occuring ball lighting and how it behaves so i didnt just chaulk it up to alien space craft , also it makes one wonder what other naturally occuring lights in the sky might still be undiscovered or scientifically documented.

The biblical refferences to lights,clouds, spinning wheels and what nots can be taken in different ways. They could be taken in a litteral sense or in such as the case with moses the mountain could have been an exteremely tall mountain that appeared to go into the clouds and perhaps there was a lighting storm. We are talking about a book that was hand scribed for 100's of years and as we all know legends get bigger and bigger with each generation of the tale.Again not to offend you but the bible could just be a book full of fairy tales much like esops fables.

Cave art and painting throught time that depict flying craft or odd beings in no way confirm the existence of aliens. They could be nothing more then fantasy art, for example did the egyptians really beleive in lion people at the time the shpinx was built? When my daughter was around 4 or 5 she would draw all sorts of things in the sky with her crayons yet she was unfamiliar with the term UFO or alien. If not art then releigios beleifs would also explain a great deal of flying crafts in art through out time. Most religions have a beleif that thier final spirit resting place is in the sky so it only makes sense that some form of transportation would be needed to get there.