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posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 01:02 PM
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How does 'original sin' = 'selective salvation?'

By 'selective' I mean non-universal--only applicable to christians or whatever the flavor of the day might be.




posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 01:19 PM
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Well, the basic answer would be that, with original sin, we need forgiveness from God. Seeing that God made this forgiveness available through Christ Jesus, that if we but believe in Him we are saved, that would be the way we would gain forgiveness.

I don't know if you've noticed (very tongue in cheek
), but mankind is arrogant. God set out some rules. He told us to believe in His son, and He would grant us eternal life. However, as one member here put it, many are trying to monopolize God by following His rules, and "we aren't going to allow that."

God set up rules. He told us to follow them. Now, today, as they did yesterday, many people believe that, if they say it, they can force God to conform to the current culture's rules of what's acceptable and not. That's their call; if you want to take on God head to head with a big ol' army of people who want to live life the way they want to instead of the way God intended and decreed, that is their perogative.

I, however, will put my money on God in that fight.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 01:37 PM
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But doesn't 'rules' = 'law?'



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
How does 'original sin' = 'selective salvation?'

By 'selective' I mean non-universal--only applicable to christians or whatever the flavor of the day might be.


We do not bare origional sin; We are however under the curse of it.

*fixed wording

[edit on 27-12-2005 by GameSetMatch]



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
But doesn't 'rules' = 'law?'


Sure, you could look at it that way. Christ came to fulfill the law. He didn't abolish it, He fulfilled it (Matthew 5:17). Therefore, Christ is the new law, the new promise, also known as the New Testament. Originally, God said, "do this, and you will be with Me," giving the Torah to the Jews to follow. Then Christ came and said, "do this instead, and you will be with Me."

Now man says, "do whatever you want, and you'll get to be with God."



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 03:12 PM
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my question is this...... god spoke directly to the jews in the old test....he laid out rules/laws to follow....now fast foward along comes jesus and we are to believe now that this "man" is to tell us the new law....why did god not come and say behold here is my son jesus he is the new way to me...he did it for the jews once why would he not do it again????
..yes jesus said to uphold the old law which from what i can see most christians do not do....

not everyone thinks you can do what you want and get away with it, but i think alot of people are waking up and seeing how weve been railroaded with this notion that jesus was god and he is the only way to heaven......
everything isnt as simple as believe in jesus and you go to heaven.....



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 03:24 PM
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Ahh, but God did not speak to everyone and tell them the rules. He spoke to Moses, who came down from the mountain to deliver the law to Israel. Then there were other spokesmen for God, also known as Prophets, to whom God spoke and they delivered the message. A large part of the message many of them brought was prophesy of the messiah (absolutely positively no mention of the Archangel Michael anywhere in scripture). Many titles were given the coming messiah, along with conditions that must be met to prove that it is He. They were in Christ, and Christ claimed a deity status. To assume He did not have a God complex (the only person in the history of Earth to be justified in such) is to ignore the books of the prophets and Christ's own words. If, however, you pick and choose verses to follow and verses to ignore, you can believe Christ wasn't God. If you pick and choose, though, is it your religion creating you, or are you creating your religion?



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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doesn't original sin=fable from the old testament?

we've already scientificly disproven the book of genesis, thereby destroying the doctrine of original sin.

also jesus taught that the sins of a parent do not translate to the child. so why do evangelicals believe something contrary to the teachings of their savior?



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
doesn't original sin=fable from the old testament?

we've already scientificly disproven the book of genesis, thereby destroying the doctrine of original sin.

also jesus taught that the sins of a parent do not translate to the child. so why do evangelicals believe something contrary to the teachings of their savior?


We did? Where did we do this? Why isn't it all over the news! Why am I only just now hearing about this! My gosh, I've been so wrong! We've proven the Bible false! We've...Oh, wait...

Where, pray tell, has the book of Genesis been scientifically disproven? Did we do it here on ATS? If we did, whoever did it was an idiot, because they should have published the book themselves instead of giving ATS intellectual rights to such an amazing proof.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 02:53 AM
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Queen Annie posted:

Answer me this:



How does 'original sin' = 'selective salvation?'


By 'selective' I mean non-universal--only applicable to christians or whatever the flavor of the day might be.

.....But doesn't 'rules' = 'law?'


Queen Annie,
Let me ask you a few questions, and these are based on the 10 Commandments, (ie- “the law”)
1. Have you ever told a lie?
2. 2. Have you EVER stol en anything regardless of the value of the item. (A pen from the bank, a paperclip from the office?)
3. Have you ever used God’s name in vain? (ie, said “Oh my God! Or Jesus’ name in a derogatory way?)
4. Jesus said in Matthew 5:28 “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Have you ever looked with lust?

If you have answered yes to any of these questions then you have sinned against God. Even if you have only done one of them, it is the same as breaking all of them.
James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”
My point is that every person has sinned and God cannot let sin go unpunished. In other words, you broke the law, so you must pay the price.

Now, imagine that you are standing in a courtroom guilty of a crime. The bail has been set at $100,000. dollars, or life in prison. You don’t have a penny to your name, so it’s off to prison you go.

All of a sudden, someone you don’t even know comes in and pays your fine and you are free to go.

That is essentially what Jesus did for you on the cross 2000 years ago. By allowing Himself to take the punishment we deserved, He stepped into the spiritual courtroom and paid our fine. When we trust in Him for the payment, we are set free.




Posted by Plague:



my question is this...... god spoke directly to the jews in the old test....he laid out rules/laws to follow....now fast foward along comes jesus and we are to believe now that this "man" is to tell us the new law....why did god not come and say behold here is my son jesus he is the new way to me...he did it for the jews once why would he not do it again????



On several occasions, Jesus told people not to tell anyone what He had done and what they had seen. If He had told everyone who He was, and all the ‘Pharisees’ and ‘Teachers of the Law’ had believed Him, then they would not have crucified Him. If He had not been crucified, there would have been no other way for us to be Saved.




..yes jesus said to uphold the old law which from what i can see most christians do not do....


Many people think that just because they go to church they wrongly believe they are Christians. If one is a TRUE Christian, and not falsely converted, they would uphold the law.
For more information on this, go to www.livingwaters.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.livingwaters.com...




not everyone thinks you can do what you want and get away with it, but i think alot of people are waking up and seeing how weve been railroaded with this notion that jesus was god and he is the only way to heaven......


He IS GOD, John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”


and He IS the ONLY way to Heaven:



John 14:6 “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”






…everything isnt as simple as believe in jesus and you go to heaven.....


You are correct there. Simply to believe, is like believing that a parachute will save you if you fall out of an airplane at 20,000 feet. It will, but only if you put it on. In the same way, you must repent (turn) from your sins and confess them to Him as you trust in His sacrifice for your sins for Salvation.


madnessinmysoul posted:



we've already scientificly disproven the book of genesis, thereby destroying the doctrine of original sin.


Please go to this website: www.answersingenesis.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.answersingenesis.org...



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by just me 2
Queen Annie,
Let me ask you a few questions, and these are based on the 10 Commandments, (ie- “the law”)
1. Have you ever told a lie?
2. 2. Have you EVER stol en anything regardless of the value of the item. (A pen from the bank, a paperclip from the office?)
3. Have you ever used God’s name in vain? (ie, said “Oh my God! Or Jesus’ name in a derogatory way?)
4. Jesus said in Matthew 5:28 “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Have you ever looked with lust?


I've broken every one of them, except the first two, in either deed or thought. However, I was baptized at the age of 8 and although I am sure I broke these laws before then, baptism cleared the record, and then through baptism my conscience was purified so that my mind could serve God. Not that I am not a 'sinner.' I live in a fleshly body--and that makes me a sinner until the day I shed my mortal raiment.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
~Romans 7:25

Also, refer to: 1 Peter 1:19-22


My point is that every person has sinned and God cannot let sin go unpunished. In other words, you broke the law, so you must pay the price.

Now, imagine that you are standing in a courtroom guilty of a crime. When we trust in Him for the payment, we are set free.


Yes, I'm quite familiar with that metaphor. It is flawed, though--because 'price' is not synonymous with 'punishment,' although both are 'consequences.'

If you are sitting in jail, and there is a bond set for your release, and someone comes along and pays that bond, you are set free. No one is going to come to your cell and ask if you are permitting that your bond be paid--you have not the opportunity to refuse. They only come to your cell to let you out once the bond has been paid. Even if you try to refuse when they come to let you out--they cannot lawfully keep you since they have already accepted payment for your release.

This is the literal truth--ask anyone who has any experience in it--a jailer, a bondsman, someone who has been in jail and was bonded out.

And the price of the bond does one of two things:
* It pays the fines which the charges incurred against you warrant--and so the charges are cleared and no longer in effect.
OR
* It acts as security for your later appearance at the bench--for judgment--so that penalties can be determined in answer for that which you have done against the law. If you do not show, the amount paid in bond is forfeited. If you do show, any fines can be paid by that deposit, but incarceration must be served, if ordered, regardless of any type of payment made on your behalf.

The consequences are of 2 types: incarceration('punishment'), and fines ('price') Both cost the person something--meaning they are both penalties--but punishment is not something one can buy their way out of.


..yes jesus said to uphold the old law which from what i can see most christians do not do....

'The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul.'

Jesus said not to break the commandments, not uphold the law.
A 'commandment' is something 'from the mouth,' an injunction such as a writ--which applies individually and is a direct order, so to speak.
But 'the law' is something that is written: a regulation or an ordinance; and is 'parceled out' through the idea of prescriptive usage.

The ten commandments are not 'the law.' The law of Moses is the 'law.' Commandments do not include instructions for penalties and restitution. But the law does.

We cannot uphold the law, but the law was fulfilled and we establish the law.

Establish means:
1 to make stable; make firm; settle; 'to establish a habit'
2 to order, ordain, or enact (a law, statute, etc.) permanently
3 to cause to be or happen; bring about 'efforts to establish a friendship'
4 to settle in an office or position, or set up as in business or a profession
5 to make an institution of
6 to set up permanently; cause to be accepted or recognized
7 to prove; demonstrate 'to establish one's cause at law'

Uphold means:
1 to hold up; raise
2 to keep from falling; support
3 to give moral or spiritual support or encouragement to
4 to decide in favor of; agree with and support against opposition; sustain

Fulfil means:
1 to carry out (something promised, desired, expected, predicted, etc.)
2 to cause to be or happen
4 to do (something required); obey
5 to fill the requirements of; satisfy (a condition) or answer (a purpose)
6 to bring to an end; complete:

Christ fulfilled the law, and He also upholds the law, by establishing those who are His, who then establish the law--yet they are not 'under the law,' which means subject to its prescribed corrections.




not everyone thinks you can do what you want and get away with it, but i think alot of people are waking up and seeing how weve been railroaded with this notion that jesus was god and he is the only way to heaven......


He IS GOD, John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[a] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”


The 'one who came from the Father.' The 'Word' become flesh. God is pure spirit--Jesus was of both flesh and the Spirit.

Jesus is the Son, not the Father. Jesus did not claim equality with the Father--only unity. Jesus is not God, he is the LORD over all that He was given (the world), and He is the Christ: the intersection where God and man meet up and reunite.


You are correct there. Simply to believe, is like believing that a parachute will save you if you fall out of an airplane at 20,000 feet. It will, but only if you put it on. In the same way, you must repent (turn) from your sins and confess them to Him as you trust in His sacrifice for your sins for Salvation.

The belief is regarding the resurrection, not the sacrifice. In the OT, the priests continually made sacrifices on behalf of the people, both en masse and as individuals--for sins not confessed and also those they were ignorant/unaware of. The sacrifice was still effectual, even if the person never knew it was made.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 03:30 PM
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just me 2...
you still did not answer the question.......why did god not speak ever??? before or after???? i mean if i was as gracious as god was to give my only son i would atleast do a follow up on it to make shure he didnt die in vain...
i mean to sacrifice your only son so that he can forgive us of our sins would mean that he would want everyone to come to him ..not a select few which is why he would be smart enough to see his flaw in sending jesus to die for our sins with out using some kinda ...IM GOD YOU NEED TO LISTEN....to verifie what they were veiwing.....

i also see a flaw in that you said jesus's death was the only way we could be forgiven of our sins.....im shure there could have been another way....
besides he died because he pissed off the romans and because he was claiming to be something he was not.....

now with all that said i love god more than onyone ive met and i have been closer to god more than anyone ive met....but i do not buy into the jesus thing ...sorry it sounds like a farce to me......almost all of the old religions had a figure who could fit christs description....what makes him anydifferent...... im not trying to be a jerk but ive studied alot of religions and christianity seems to just be a rehash of old religions put in a everything but christianity is pagan wrapping...



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by plague
..why did god not come and say behold here is my son jesus he is the new way to me...

everything isnt as simple as believe in jesus and you go to heaven.....


He did say it Matthew 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

and

Matthew 17:5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

I agree, alot of people don't mean it. [edit on 28-12-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 28-12-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 04:02 PM
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jj, do i need to list ALL of the inconsitencies is genesis? or just a few? or how about the flaws in progression of creation? what about the baffling scientific innaccuracies?

what should i list?

i'll start with one thing. the bible has 2 SEPERATE accounts of creation, one right after the other. i've talked this over with several highly respected theologians, and they say its truth, but not fact. the truth is that god created all, creation is good, and humans are very good. the not fact is the progression. it's a fable, it has a message of truth told through fiction.

you may proceed to label these theologians heretics and decievers or even false christians, but that just belittles the discussion.



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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salvation is selective ???

I thought Salavtion is something you hearn and than work out with ... like Paul said ..."work out your salvation"... where does "selectivism" comes in ?



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
We did? Where did we do this? Why isn't it all over the news! Why am I only just now hearing about this! My gosh, I've been so wrong! We've proven the Bible false! We've...Oh, wait...

Where, pray tell, has the book of Genesis been scientifically disproven? Did we do it here on ATS? If we did, whoever did it was an idiot, because they should have published the book themselves instead of giving ATS intellectual rights to such an amazing proof.


Alright JJ so your telling everyone that what is written in Genesis is the complete and utter unrefutable, no point in arguing truth? How do you explain the glaring errors?
Also there is no proof Moses existed and the probability is that Ezra the priest collated the first 5 books (Torah). The further back into Biblical history we go the less likely that it is true.


G



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by BaastetNoir
salvation is selective ???

Of course not.


I thought Salavtion is something you hearn and than work out with ...

Not earned, though--given!



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