Government spying bigger than what is being admitted

Well somewhere there is probably someone scanning all our info, Orwell is probably rolling over in his graveright now. Here is a report from Capital Hill Blue that tell the bigger picture. I've read a ton of posts here on this website questioning whether we the ordinary joes of the world are being surveilled,well the answer is yes.
In case you are wondering who Capital Hill Blue is and how valid their info is, here is an article that points out all the info they have given out only to see it reported 2 yrs later by the mainstream media.
www.capitolhillblue.com...


Here is where the whole article is,I've only posted excerpts
www.capitolhillblue.com...

The National Security Agency (NSA) has conducted much broader surveillance of e-mails and phone calls -- all without court orders -- than the Bush administration admits and intelligence experts say the spying goes far beyond just monitoring phone and email communications.

The volume of information harvested from telecommunications data and voice networks, without court-approved warrants, is much larger than the White House admits.

“We have a police state far beyond anything George Orwell imagined in his book 1984,” says privacy expert Susan Morrissey. “The everyday lives of virtually every American are under scrutiny 24-hours-a-day by the government.”

Goose, thank you for posting this. All the telephone companies, and Internet providers are drowning in taps and its killing them.
This isnt just "international" calls- this is domestic. I have been to several switching companies over the years for my work and it is a very complex work there. I also know many from different companies , and they tell me its EVERYONE.

Unfortunately, nobody seems to care. Its much easier not to care, i guess.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Unfortunately, nobody seems to care. Its much easier not to care, i guess.

Everything you tend to say I agree with, except the above...I'm not so sure it's a matter of not caring, so much as what can you do?
Big brother is watching, AND big brother is BIGGER...what can you do? Elect another corrupt official who purports that his or her intentions are genuine?
Or perhaps let political red-tape channels handle the situation at a time when its too late for a reversal? If not, whats left? Even the ability to change it would be thwarted by any attempted communications within those of like mind BECAUSE its being monitored. So, what can you do?
As I write this response, were I to use the wrong phrasing or wording, I could immediately become suspect, couldnt I? Then expose myself and family to unnecessary harassment.
No, I wouldnt go so far as to say that nobody cares, but for those who do, have a stark reality of their hands being tied...UNLESS...... well, the unless would have to be unspoken wouldnt it? A man who gives up a little liberty for a little security deserves neither and will lose both...truer words were never spoken...the writing was on the wall and no one listened when it could have been changed. So, now what can you do?

I try and live by this:
"Doing the right thing isnt hard, its easy. Knowing what the right thing is and NOT doing it, thats hard."

But, the world plays out something like this:
"In nature, there is no right or wrong, only consequences."

Some of us DO, in fact, care Tempe...but apart from armed conflict and revolution (a division of our own lands), what are truly the alternatives?
If you, who does care as well, have an answer, I would love to hear it.


AB1

Originally posted by dgtempe

Unfortunately, nobody seems to care. Its much easier not to care, i guess.

You are very welcome, glad you liked it. Capital Hill Blue rocks when it comes to getting out the info no one else will touch, people read it and swear its not for real becuse the mainstream media is not reporting it. But then two years later mainstream media reports its, I sometimes wonder why they mainstream media wait so long.I guess they got to wait for permission from the puppet controllers.

Well you are right very few people seem to care judging from the amount of replies here . I even got responses at another board like I'm not doing anything so I don't care whether they bug my phone or read my email and watch my every move. Now that is clearly a sheeple.

There have been projects such as echelon going on for years and years, all before all this NSA spying stuff came out. Everything was monitored through the internet ages ago, fortunately, people are starting to learn about it, but its being presented in a way which is more acceptable than rejected so as not to cause any form of chaos of some sort.

I agree, we should all care, but what can we do about it. They can trace anyone on the planet anytime they want. I remember reagan saying something about 'we now have satellites all over the world, to allow communication anywhere at anytime'. He should have added, 'and to monitor your every move, you can't get away, bwahha'.

All the best
Merger

I am referring to lack of interst here at ATS. Have you looked at the Pro- spying threads? It brakes my heart to see so many behind the spying and if you jump in and make comments, they will have your head on a platter.

Its ok with many to have this in place in the name of protection from terrorism. I know we are definatedly all entitled to think what we want (so far) but you would think that deep inside it would bother some, wouldnt you? Just because you are all for your political party, doesnt mean that you are so blind you cant see that somethings are wrong and uncalled for.

I was royally peeved off when Clinton pulled his sexual escapades
and i lean towards Democratic presidents. I was able to see he made a mistake, for Petes sakes...Why cant others not see that our liberties are being taken away? Oh yes they are- I am so sick of questions posed to me like: DG, what liberty has been taken from you? There you see the narrowmindness of these people.
Collectively and generally, we are all being stripped of all our rights. For those who cant see that, you live in a bubble where life is beautiful all the time *hums tune* And they're coming to take you away, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.......

Its so depressing. If we let it happen, ITS OUR FAULT.

Is there much we can do as individuals? surley one person cant change the world.

yes, martin luther king and such like people have changed the world but by the time you can rally up enough people for a protest march what have you, surly the problem will be out of our hands.

Most of the people of the world are also so stuck up in their own lifes and dont ever look at the bigger picture, and even if substantial evidence points away from the excuses given by the heads of state, they still WANT to believe to "real" story because it doesn't require them to think.

So really what is there for us to do as individuals?

what can you do? Elect another corrupt official who purports that his or her intentions are genuine?

It will just be a continuous loop, no matter how genuine they are at the start, the power and control will infect their minds.

[edit on 27/12/05 by Jay505]

I wonder when will the "Bush Fans" Barge in here and start Denying everything and saying "Nay! Nay! Bush is Not Guilty!". I just love them - and I just can't wait to see their Reaction, when the Truth about their Favourite and "Innocent" president WILL Come out. The Fragments are coming, but this is Clearly not the Entire Picture. Quite Scary if you ask me - Bush administration has proven, that they have Corruption in almost every place and every part that they are apart of.

Come on - let's wait and see their Reaction!

Originally posted by Jay505
Is there much we can do as individuals? surley one person cant change the world.

yes, martin luther king and such like people have changed the world but by the time you can rally up enough people for a protest march what have you, surly the problem will be out of our hands.

Most of the people of the world are also so stuck up in their own lifes and dont ever look at the bigger picture, and even if substantial evidence points away from the excuses given by the heads of state, they still WANT to believe to "real" story because it doesn't require them to think.

So really what is there for us to do as individuals?

what can you do? Elect another corrupt official who purports that his or her intentions are genuine?

It will just be a continuous loop, no matter how genuine they are at the start, the power and control will infect their minds.

[edit on 27/12/05 by Jay505]

Perhaps all is not lost....Yet.

As I suggested on another, related thread, it seems to me that there may be legal recourse available; at least for those of use residing in California, and possibly other states with strong Privacy and Disclosure statutes.

Based on my initial reading, the Administration along with the various California-based telecommunications companies which provided the data in question, may be guilty of Conspiracy to violate California Public Utility Code 2891.1.

California PUC 2891.1 provides that, amoung other things, "No information regarding calling patterns, vredit or financial information, subscriber services, or demographic data shall be disclosed by any telephone company without first obtaining the residential subscriber's consent".

I suggest that any of you so inclined check your state's Privacy laws to see if a case for violation could similarly be made.

Consider the effect a national class action law suit might have.

Originally posted by Bhadhidar
Code 2891.1.

California PUC 2891.1 provides that, amoung other things, "No information regarding calling patterns, vredit or financial information, subscriber services, or demographic data shall be disclosed by any telephone company without first obtaining the residential subscriber's consent".

I suggest that any of you so inclined check your state's Privacy laws to see if a case for violation could similarly be made.

Consider the effect a national class action law suit might have.

In as much as I would like to think that this would matter, do you REALLY believe that a municipality or state regulation such as the above would take precedence over the Fed. Patriot Act?


I'm quite certain that it wouldnt, moreover, an argument would be (and a valid one given those conditions) that the last thing the Fed's or Black Baggers are going to get caught up in, is the red tape of a residents consent if national security is at risk. I mean, picture it - IF the person in question WERE truly a national security risk AND a federal warrant were obtained FIRST to monitor activity at that residence, then and ONLY then and ONLY for a given period until which time it can be clearly ascertained that the resident either is or is not a security risk, would it all be acceptable...given THAT, I think it would be OK not to obtain the permission of the potential risk ("Excuse me, we believe youre a national threat, mind if we monitor you to see if thats true?").


However, it doesnt seem as though there is any control WHATSOEVER on who is being monitored, no audit trail to find out who it WAS when it was, no accountability as to why it was initiated, and MOST disturbing seemingly no end to how many are being monitored nor for how long nor for what period of time said sessions are archived.
As it stands now, the NSA and the Administration has free reign on who they intrude on and for what length of time. As much as im sure EVERYONE who is a US citizen here would like to believe that all of their elected officials having anything nefarious in mind would be totally out of the question, are you willing to bet your liberty on that? Youre constitutional freedom on that? Are you willing to bet your BUSINESSES on that, when some greedy @#$%er in the NSA or the Administration see's a way to make a ton of money by listening to the right business at the right time and having that greedy @#$%er get in touch with your competition and potentially beating your business to market with a product you designed? And maybe getting it patented so that you lose out completely?


Of course the above is an extreme example, but do you really find it out of the scope of possibility that this would happen? Be realistic folks, things have gotten WAY out of hand and have gone WAY too far...and we (the US citizens) CAN NOT let this continue. If each and every one of you have a MODICUM of patriotism, you have to KNOW that it doesnt lie in the patriot act nor in this abortion of democratic freedom being practiced by a black bag operation that OUR TAX DOLLARS PAY FOR! We pay these jokers to spy on us...doesnt that bother you (citizens) as much as it bothers me? I certainly hope so [/rant]



[edit on 27-12-2005 by alphabetaone]

[edit on 27-12-2005 by alphabetaone]

I guess one of the reason this very important stepping on the constitutional rights of every American in this country with Bush abuse of power, is over looked during this time, is because Americans during the Christmas season tend to be more happier and forgiving.

The time to bring this issue to the public could not have been better for Bush.

But the fact is still the same, our rights has been step over and is laws that protect those rights and even the president is not immune to the law.

No matter what the propaganda is out there to save face and make it look like he has the power to do what he wants in the name of national security the facts is that he is guilty as charge.

He will hide under the powers of the patriot act, and will bring the scaremongering of terror to his side, but none of the laws that protect the public from acts like this has been amended.

We will wait and see.

Fox has a nice littler number in which they are now turning the tables and telling that "Democrats are in war with Bush but not with terrorist"

That is a nice one for the ones that still cling to ideologies.

1985 ruling by the Supreme Court that the attorney general and other high-level executive officials could be sued for violating people's rights in the name of national security, with such actions as domestic wiretaps.

I was told by a member that I am talking rant, so yes is people still clinging to ideologies not matter if constitutional rights are violated.

Some people have not idea how big is all this realy is.


[edit on 27-12-2005 by marg6043]

Good thing we have a few people in our gov't that will say enough is enough. John Conyers, the senator from Detroit is going to lead the impeachment march, just wait. We can change things, it is just far to easy to sit on the couch and whine about it all. If you spent the time it took you to read 1984 to organize a resistence, and spread the word, we would be much better off. We are all responisible. None of us is free so long as one of us is in chains...

either this court was heavily anti-bush, or there was something wrong with the servelience he was asking for...

www.upi.com...

this must put bush on the top of the who's who in FISA rejections!!! probably all alone at that!

Thanks dawnstar for the link, I was just reading on that one, funny that the court has been very good when it comes to approving taps, but it seems that it was not enough for the president.

Also we need to understand that from all the surveillance not a single case was reported of arrest.

I wonder if from all the people that had been spied on any of them has been whisked away in the night for interrogation and we many never get to know about all this because they may be in foreign American interrogation camps.

Originally posted by goose
Well somewhere there is probably someone scanning all our info, Orwell is probably rolling over in his graveright now. Here is a report from Capital Hill Blue that tell the bigger picture. I've read a ton of posts here on this website questioning whether we the ordinary joes of the world are being surveilled,well the answer is yes.
In case you are wondering who Capital Hill Blue is and how valid their info is, here is an article that points out all the info they have given out only to see it reported 2 yrs later by the mainstream media.
www.capitolhillblue.com...


Here is where the whole article is,I've only posted excerpts
www.capitolhillblue.com...

The National Security Agency (NSA) has conducted much broader surveillance of e-mails and phone calls -- all without court orders -- than the Bush administration admits and intelligence experts say the spying goes far beyond just monitoring phone and email communications.

The volume of information harvested from telecommunications data and voice networks, without court-approved warrants, is much larger than the White House admits.

“We have a police state far beyond anything George Orwell imagined in his book 1984,” says privacy expert Susan Morrissey. “The everyday lives of virtually every American are under scrutiny 24-hours-a-day by the government.”

This is absolutely laughable, especially the last bit there. A police state, I dont see a police state. I see a group of people who are unhappy with the current administration and are going after them like a pack of wolves on a rabbit. They have disclosed the program you speak of, while I am aboslutely sure not every detail is made public yet and probably for good reason, this is pure assumption. The reason Capitol hill blue can report this first is because they dont have the reputation on the line that a major publication has. They dont have to worry about being shunned in the news community if they jump the gun on a story that isnt true. They may very well be a good source, but when they claim their source to be a former NSA employee who quit in disgust. Well is it not also possible that this man could have been an employee who was fired and is doing this out of bitterness. It certainly is, everything is a possiblility but when you stake the truth on an unsubstantiated political commentary such as this, I have no choice but to voice my skepticism. When an employee of an agency such as the NSA takes the oath to protect this nation, they pledge to defend it from both foreign and domestic enemies. And there is an enemy inside our borders. I'm not saying that they may not have gone overboard with their surveilance, but I am proposing the possiblilty that they have not. Besides, Capitol Hill Blue is just political commentary anyhow, meaning it contains opinions, much like the ones you and I express on this website.

Can somebody point out where are the results of the surveillance?

Where are the arrest and prosecution of the guilty?

I tell you what is going on In the US, we have Nixon back in the white house because he wanted to know who was plotting against him.

Terrorist my butt, Bush wants to know how many people are against him.

He is after protest groups and any other groups that are voicing disagreement with his war on terror and invasion in Iraq.

He is actually doing worst that Nixon did he has given himself dictatorship powers and with the patriot act he can go after any American and he has voiced that he will not stop and that means going against the congress that means he has not regards for the balance of power in our nation.

His lies to the American people has taken credibility of his actions, the only enemies he is after is the ones that he sees as political here in the US.

Wiretaps require court order in order to protect the Fourth Amendment of the constitutional rights of American citizens.

No matter how he wants to paint it he is violating our constitutional rights.

He is spying Americans.

You are either with us or againts us

If Bush didn't spy on the enemies of the United States of America, and it led to another terrorist attack. I would be the first to call for his impeachment.

It's called Battlefield intelligence. Did we choose the U.S. to be a battlefield? No... Al-Queda did.

Since when do we give constitutional rights to terrorist?

This type of surveillence cannot be used in court. That would be unconstitutional. But it can be used to stop terrorist plans.

What is so bad about easedropping on the enemy? We don't take the enemy to court....we kill them.

How quickly we forget about the FBI files that were possessed by the Clinton administration illegally.

Maybe you should realize that all these things you have found laughable in the past because they were voiced by so many (so called )disgruntled people have been proven true.

How many people came forth from the Bush administration and told the American people that Bush jumped the gun and wanted to go to Iraq regardless of the WMD'existance, they said the evidence was not strong enough and that it was questionable if any WMD's existed. Guess what they were right, even Bush is now admitting the intelligence was bad, he is using it as an excuse but then he always has some lame excuse doesn't he?

The Bush administration has sold themselves as always being attacked by the so called disgruntled worker so even if someone tried to tell the truth it did not matter, because so many were willing to believe that people were just out to get Bush. Wake up it did not profit these people in the least to come out and tell the truth, they suffered as a result to their reputations. but all the things they said has been proven true.

This just a few things capital Hill Blue has reported ahead of the mainstream media www.capitolhillblue.com...
On January 22, 2003, before President Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq, we ran a story, Role reversal: Bush wants war, Pentagon urges caution. Among the points in that story:

But conversations with sources within the Bush administration, the Pentagon, the FBI and the intelligence community indicate a deepening rift between the professionals who wage war for a living and the administration civilians to want to send them into battle.

Sources say the White House has ordered the FBI and CIA to “find and document” links between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, the mastermind of the 9-11 terrorist attacks.

“The implication is clear,” grumbles one longtime FBI agent. “Find a link, any link, no matter how vague or unproven, and then use that link to justify action against Iraq.”

We followed that story up the next day, January 23 with this one: Intel pros forced to fabricate Iraqi intelligence:

U.S. intelligence professionals, under pressure from the Bush administration to provide proof needed to justify war with Iraq, say they have been forced to fabricate evidence of Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction as well as the location of non-existent hidden chemical weapon warheads.

The fabricated documentation, shared for the first time with the White House on Thursday, provides the basis for material the administration requires to justify an attack on Iraq.

It was two years, repeat two years, before the same information appeared in mainstream media.

Last year, June 7, 2004, we reported on the U.S. government’s spying on American citizens with the story: Where big brother snoops on Americans 24/7:

Despite Congressional action cutting funding, and the resignation of the program’s controversial director, retired admiral John Poindexter, DARPA’s TIA program is alive and well and prying into the personal business of Americans 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

What people dont seem to realize is the NSA can drop in on much more than emails, phone calls and faxs.

Anything with a AC current can be a listening or a visual device, of course you will probably argue with me and say that is all a bunch of scifi nonsense and i should go back to watching my xfiles shows.

Think what you want

Originally posted by goose
It was two years, repeat two years, before the same information appeared in mainstream media.

Last year, June 7, 2004, we reported on the U.S. government’s spying on American citizens with the story: Where big brother snoops on Americans 24/7

Goose, who is "we"?
Goose, "we" is reporting nothing new here on the US government spying on Americans.
Apparently, the "we" that you keep referring to seemingly and blatantly forgot that Americans were being spied upon for quite sometime, and definately longer than what your "we" assert that they provided ahead of mainstream press.

Does CARNIVORE [ie: DCS-1000] and ECHELON ring a bell, all implemented and ongoing long before your "we" disclosed that the US government was spying on Americans. There is certainly nothing special about your "we". Thoughts?







seekerof

[edit on 27-12-2005 by Seekerof]