Don't get me wrong, I believe in God. But let me ask you a simple question. Which is greater example of God's true power, Creationism or Evolutionism? In Creationism God just says poof this is Earth these are the people and thats the way it is. In Evolutionism God would litterally have to create the Universe in such a manner that everything worked out from the big bang on to create life and human beings on Earth. I think that is a far more profound statement of God's true power. Creationism isn't giving God enough credit, IMO.

There is/are an/other thread/s (hundreds actually) here which address/es this/these old argument/s , it is regarding time and the dimensionality of the universe . IMO , these creationism-vs-evolutionism issues cannot be resolved with the information available to those who would want to know , or need to know , (not entirely accidental) because our species is not in the possession of the senses it requires to understand the reality of time , space , and everything.
The intelligent design theory makes the most sense to me , and this is pretty much what you are touching upon in your post.
Like if a woodpecker were to evolve from a bird which could not peck a hole in tree to find food , would his earlier ancestors, have survived to become woodpeckers later on , if they could not absorb the shock of banging their head against a tree , or starved to death because they couldn't find food begin with ? , besides that , where did they ever come up with the information that they could find food there , in that place , in that manner.
IMO , mankind is the helpless link in the chain of order , but mankind is arrogant.
Sometimes I almost think that mankind does not know these things because he does not deserve to.
I know , I usually wander , my perception of time is not the same as most other people , I'm uNBaLaNCeD.
FF026116SHW

Originally posted by XiNGYaNGFoo
There is/are an/other thread/s (hundreds actually) here which address/es this/these old argument/s , it is regarding time and the dimensionality of the universe . IMO , these creationism-vs-evolutionism issues cannot be resolved with the information available to those who would want to know , or need to know , (not entirely accidental) because our species is not in the possession of the senses it requires to understand the reality of time , space , and everything.

In what way does the theory of evolution conflict with the theory of relativity?

I'd also like to know why all the available data that supports evolution isn't sufficient enough to 'resolve' this issue given ID/creationism has no scientific data supporting it, and, how can you confidently say 'because our species is not in the possession of the senses it requires to understand the reality of time , space , and everything' when you are a member of it? Are your senses that much more atuned and objective that you can measure our collective naivity of the reality you are a part of? What 'senses' do we require to comprehend these things? This reality may be all there is.

[edit on 25-12-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
Don't get me wrong, I believe in God. But let me ask you a simple question. Which is greater example of God's true power, Creationism or Evolutionism? In Creationism God just says poof this is Earth these are the people and thats the way it is. In Evolutionism God would litterally have to create the Universe in such a manner that everything worked out from the big bang on to create life and human beings on Earth. I think that is a far more profound statement of God's true power. Creationism isn't giving God enough credit, IMO.

Ryan, your question is somewhat difficult to answer; evolution can include many definitions, and means different things to different people. But I'll make an effort to answer your questions. I think literal creationists have a problem with evolutionary theory because it doesn't fit in with what they believe to be a true history of creation, ie: Genesis. It's not so much a question of which is a better example of God's power, so much as it goes against the literal history of creation. Other difficulties could come from the idea that evolution has no goal, ie: human beings are an 'accident,' for lack of a better word, no more or less likely than any other organism. In the minds of many from Judeao-Christian cultures, this robs humanity of being 'created in the image of God.' Though certain former ID proponents, like Michael Denton actually subscribe to this kind of belief... ie: the universe was set in motion to result specifically in the extant life forms we observe today. I think that the literal creationist fear not accepting the bible as the literal word of God, which is an interesting phenomena to me, but a topic for another thread nonetheless.

And while you didn't ask, I'll give my personal perspective about IDT. I think IDT has arisen out of a frustration from within the scientific community to make any real forward progress in the elucidation of the origin of life. While the theory certainly has been hijacked for other purposes, the movement began out of an examination of the existing data and scientific evidence. Certain members of the scientific community, myself included, don't believe that the current hypotheses generated via abiogenesis and NDT will be adequate to answer the question of biological origins completely. Thus, a new basis for hypothesis formation is attempting to make some headway. Change is scary for some people, even the educated elite.

Ryan, We think alike...I think I need to find the IDT threads here I guess

I don't understand for the life of me how the scientifically inclined can discount creation nor how the spiritually inclined can think of God only as a magician of sorts...a sorcerer almost...instead of an amazing being...a GOD perhaps? lol ...who could create by great means including evolutionary means...even if to Him...it was a blink of the eye in time...and done in the palm of his hand...

It's not so much a question of which is a better example of God's power, so much as it goes against the literal history of creation.

I would agree here with mattison09221, but to me I think it is merely a perceptional problem with how the "history of creation" was/is perceived by "believers" from reading the Bible etc

Other difficulties could come from the idea that evolution has no goal, ie: human beings are an 'accident,' for lack of a better word, no more or less likely than any other organism.

I would agree here too...

IMO that this is what defines evolution-that it is some type of random form of progression that brings humans to be...and thus there is no hand of divinity in the progression and thus why it is rejected by Creationists...and why it is used to often attempt to discredit Creation

but again...to me it is merely a misunderstanding...progress...even evolutionary progress doesn't have to be as random or without directly designed purpose as evolutionsts would seem to believe, nor does it have to mean it wasn't divinely directed and conceived from...

but sooo many people enjoy/or must for their own preservation of belief limiting/limit what God can do to their understanding or willingness to accept what He can do




[edit on 26-12-2005 by think2much]

I too agree with your comments Ryan. I think the fundamental problem here lies in the fact that many people seem to think God, religion and the Bible are interchangeable. If people could accept that they are all independant of eachother, the theory of evolution would be a lot easier for them to accept.

I don't see why the two are mutually exclusive. An all-powerful being could easily take 6 days, make it so 6 billion years passed during that time and used Evolution as the tool to create life. So even if you believe in the 6 days theory of the origin it still would not mean that evolution wasn't the way it happened.

It has always been my belief that a Deity created life, using evolution as the tool to do so. While I am not a Christian, I see nothing that would cause the Creation Story to suddenly lose all credibility if Evolution were actually proven.

I would describe myself as a Buddhist Deist or a Gnostic, but I don't necessarily believe in all of the Gnostic beliefs.

but again...to me it is merely a misunderstanding...progress...even evolutionary progress doesn't have to be as random or without directly designed purpose as evolutionsts would seem to believe, nor does it have to mean it wasn't divinely directed and conceived from...

As much as I love evolution, this is true. Maybe we should be worshipping the god of chaos theory?

Don't forget ID is only a theory, evolution is fact. Some people want/need to believe in something (theory), some will only accept 'proven' fact.

It is so hard to accept for certain groups. Not everyone. It is hard for these groups to accept it because their leadership advises them not to with stiff penalties.....like going to hell.

It also involves logical reasoning. Something that is largely avoided when it comes to organized religion.

Don't forget ID is only a theory, evolution is fact. Some people want/need to believe in something (theory), some will only accept 'proven' fact.

Hmmm...evolution is indeed a scientific fact, however, I am not convinced evolution as the basis of human life is beyond contestation....well obviously it is not. LOL Therefor evolution of the human is not a fact....it is a theory too

There are alot of scientific facts indeed, including evolution of species of animals and non-human life, that lend validity to the belief of evolution as a progress of giving birth to human life as well.... but there is still no indisputable proof of that-just a theory and belief in it by those who discount creation from God, and adopt the fact of evolution of species to explain humanity as well.

The Lords of Chaos what an ill choice to run things! But what an interesting life! Still I believe in a just God, and do not limit what He may have done, thorugh evolution to create us

[edit on 30-12-2005 by think2much]

Originally posted by think2much
But what an interesting life! Still I believe in a just God, and do not limit what He may have done, thorugh evolution to create us

[edit on 30-12-2005 by think2much]

Could`nt agree more,someone with a belief in God and Christ imo need`nt get worked up defending how God has done anything simply its a belief in that He Is Can and Does what ever science says or proves,tho science can never prove He dos`nt exist.

If anything only prove how he did it,and i highly doubt they will.

Too true! I too, have an unshakeable belif in God, and nothing that can be said, done, discovered, uncovered or proven has a hope of changing that. However I believe that God created the everything through a process which does not violate any laws of physics or contracdict anything that Science has proven. It is when people try to link everything back to the Bible that conflict arises, included the world coming into being around 6 or 7 thousand years ago, no mention of dinosaurs or other planets and an a finite age limit of 120 years that no human can surpass despite many examples in the Bible itself!

Maybe evolution is not exactly the way iot all unfolded but it is certainly a plausible explanation which does NOT disprove God's involvement.