Why nobody likes America

Originally posted by die kafirs
None of the Islamic countries likes America.I wonder who US is gona attack next.I think they should turn thier saying from WAR on TERROR to WAR on ISLAM so that the world gets a better idea why muslim countries are getting attacked.

Hmm yeah, and then the UK would stop fighting the IRA and the UVF if they started up again then?
Colour has no place in CT.

Originally posted by Majic
Ignorance Defied

Originally posted by masterp
That's easy enough: Germany, France, Scotland, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Greece, Switcherland, Austria, Japan, Australia, for example. There are many more.

Don't be surprised by the presence of Germany, Italy and Japan. After WWII, they haven't done anything wrong.

Ignoring history is just a form of ignorance.

If you are willing to ignore their history, why not ours?

The answer is simple enough, and my point stands -- reinforced, in fact.

Next.

I am not ignoring no one's history - as I have said before, other countries are to blame, including France (for example) for their policies in North Africa. But France has learned its lesson and they have largely stopped the silly game of power & domination.

Originally posted by Majic

Lest my previous response seem unduly brief, let's go into greater detail.

But first, let's get something straight: as I clearly indicated above, I'm not saying America is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Neither do I about France.

I'm saying people complain about America because we don't do what they tell us to do.

This is where you are wrong: people are not complaining because USA does not do what they say, people are comparing because of all the wrong and immoral things USA has done in the last 50 years.

This manifests itself in all sorts of juvenile insults directed at my country, and now and then I respond to this swelling tide of shameless ignorance by challenging it, as I am doing here.

I personally have, in no way, insulted any Americans or called any names. I do not hate (or like) Americans. I am simply pointing out why America is hated around the globe. .

masterp threw out a list of countries which each have a long list of sins to their names, both greater and lesser than those of the U.S., but let's not cater to such hand-waving, because it's utterly meaningless.

masterp specifically offered up France as an example of virtue that the U.S. can't match -- then qualified this choice by specifying post-WWII France.

How convenient.

But most problems that exist NOW have been created in the last 50 years.

I rejected those terms -- both with regard to the myopic timeframe and specious, selective and rhetorically-charged criteria chosen -- but let's have some fun with this anyway.

You rejected those terms because they do not serve you well in this case.

Let's go with post-Vichy France and see how spotless its history has been since the U.S. and its allies liberated it from the Nazis -- and the Vichy French.

It wasn't USA only that helped in the victory of the Allies during WWII. USSR played an equally important role, as well as minor countries like Greece.

I invite my fellow members to consider masterp's offering of France as a bastion of virtue, and share whatever answers they may wish to proffer in response to the questions posed, because mine are hardly exhaustive.

I never said that 'France' is a bastion of virtue. I said that many countries have done much less immoral and bad things than USA in the last 50 years.

French Pacifism

Originally posted by masterp
Yes, let's do that. Let's take post-war France, for example:

When it was the last time the French army was engaged in a war?

Choose one. How about Algeria? How about Vietnam?

Long before the U.S. ever sent troops, the French were killing Vietnamese. Note, however, who their buddies were even back then: the U.S.

Dealing with the devil, were they? Tsk, tsk. :shk:

Well, yes, you are right. The French were engaged in war activities. But there is a difference:

1) these wars stopped around 1962.
2) these wars were not 'invasions'. The French were already there from the previous century/years.

Of course having conquested half of the world is immoral, but those conquested countries are free now.

More recently, French troops have seen combat in the Ivory Coast and Rwanda, but those could be dismissed as “peacekeeping missions” or “police actions” ala the U.S. war in Vietnam, I suppose.

You are trying to mislead people into thinking France's actions are on par with USAs. But here is an extract from the link about Ivory Coast:


he almost 2,500-strong French contingent are in the country to monitor a truce agreed with the main rebel group in Ivory Coast, the Ivory Coast Patriotic Movement (MPCI), which holds the largely Muslim north of the country.


So the French have sent 2500 troops to monitor a truce between rebels and a government. It is quite different from what USA has done both in Yugoslavia and in two Iraq wars, where thousands of troops, 100s of fighter planes and thousands of bombs have been used in order to root out a possibly evil goverment (which US president has admitted it was not that dangerous after all).

As for Rwanda, if the French have commited the crimes they are accused of, they should be held responsible in the international court of Justice.

But what you present so far is, in no way, up on par with what USA has done.

France also sent troops to Afghanistan, and from what I understand, they have represented their nation honorably.

Hey, they couldn't do otherwise.

Originally posted by masterp
When it was the last time France helped a dictator?

If we count colonial governors installed by France, there's a plethora to choose from.

Yes, but all this happened in the 17th, 18th and 19th century!!!

But that's not all, and they're still doing it today.

Again, what you present is misleading. Did you read the material you posted? African dictators were on private trips to France. It's different from what USA has done. USA has deployed its secret agencies to help dictators raise to power!!!

Originally posted by masterp
When it was the last time France stole the national identity of one country and assigned it to another?

See French colonial empires.

Again, your link shows nothing about what we are discussing. The link you posted talks about colonialism. I am talking about talking the identity of a country and assigning it to another country(as in case of Macedonia)!!!.

Originally posted by masterp
When it was the last time France refused to sign an international deal for the environment?

When was the last time France agreed to pay the lion's share for an international deal for the environment? How many of these “green” treaties are anything more than a trade treaty in disguise? It always boils down to money.

If France ever accepts the kind of “environmental” deals being offered to the U.S., buy stock in flying pigs.

Virtue has nothing to do with it.

I agree, but at least it is a step in the right direction. Unlike what USA intends to do (i.e. completely ignore the environment issues).

Originally posted by masterp
When it was the last time French secret services where involved in an international scandal?

This was hardly the last time, but it's famous: Rainbow Warrior. Sunk because it interfered with the detonation of nuclear weapons, no less.

What a bunch of boy scouts.

You may not hear about it, but French intelligence agencies are always into some bit of skulduggery or another not only all over the world but right here in the U.S. -- just like our guys, and everyone else's.

Here's what I mean, courtesy of Google: french secret service scandal.

I'm seeing about 1.8 million hits for that. There's a scandal or two in there somewhere.

Well, shame on them. But have these French spies illegally abducteed citizens? have French secret agencies flown the abductees into mini Guadanamos? have French secret agencies pour money into 'orange revolutions' in former eastern-block countries???

That doesn't mean squat. Everybody still spies on everyone else, and everyone has dirt on their hands.

Indeed, everyone has dirt on their hands, but USA has the biggest hands of them all, and therefore the most dirt.

But the most unforgivable sin France could possibly commit is this: France is a strong ally of the United States.

That's right, France is on our side, and despite our highly-publicized quarrels and squabbles, is still a close friend of the U.S.

For America-haters, this is the unkindest cut of all.

Look, pal, why should there have to be sides? we are all equal, we are all the same colour. Nobody hates you. Do I know you? no. Hey, we might even be remote friends in another site. Who knows.

But we have to be fair and recognize the bad stuff our country has done.

The bottom line is that no nation is a bastion of virtue, all nations do bad things, and all of them act in their own self-interests.

Nobody said there is a nation that is a bastion of virtue. But the biggest a country is, the biggest the consequences are.

If, tomorrow, there is a war in Iran, and Russia goes against USA in a global thermonuclear war, who is gonna die? me and you. Maybe you voted for your death (by voting the government that selected to go to war), but I certainly have not. I want me, and my children, to live in a world that they can enjoy their lifes just as their ancestors.

The point is that singling out one country for doing the same thing all countries do is bigotry, and founded in ignorance, not righteousness.

Every nation is a glass house, hence the inadvisability of throwing stones.

Look, I am not one of those mad muslim guys that shout 'death to the USA'. These muslims are even crazier, and fanatism is not my game. I believe in a Star Trek - type society, where logic plays the most important role.

Originally posted by masterp
Not admitting one's mistakes is a sign of immaturity. Responsible leaders are the ones that know when to say "my bad".

The topic is “Why nobody likes America”. That's what I'm addressing.

Although immaturity seems to invariably come part and parcel with this topic.

As for who admits mistakes or when, that's a whole different can of worms. If the insinuation is that the U.S. never admits mistakes, that's demonstrably false.

As for leadership, when you find a truly responsible leader of any country, be sure to let me know, because they aren't just scarce in my country.

Agreed, but that is hardly a reason not to understand why people say that they hate America.

I live in the Balkans. If tomorrow I am called to defend my country in a war that involves Albanians, Skopjians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Turks, it will be because your president thought it would be good for your country to take the identity of another country and assign it to another.

If you blindly support that move by your president, then you actually want me dead.

So do not be suprised if I have negative feelings about you (I personally do not have, it is just a figure of speech talking to 'you'.)

I'm arguing against nationalist bigotry which indiscriminately targets me, my family and many of my friends.

Why the opposition to that?

Just as you are freightened about your family and friends, so am I. Your country's tactics do not make this world safer; in fact, they make it more dangerous.

If you acknowledge that, then you may elect someone with a better plan. It is your responsibility, because I am not a US citizen.

As for those that say "US is the best place to live", I have to say that you haven't tasted the way I live, so you can not compare it to my way.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Soccer???
You use a foot and you use a ball= foot ball.
Damm yanks

Sometimes things just aren't that cut and dry.

Ohh you havnt seen our "militia" then in force have you lol.

No, but I'm sure they're very drunk and extremely unruly.

Originally posted by die kafirs
None of the Islamic countries likes America.I wonder who US is gona attack next.I think they should turn thier saying from WAR on TERROR to WAR on ISLAM so that the world gets a better idea why muslim countries are getting attacked.

Very surprising post coming from "die kafirs", so you're saying the U.S. is aggressive, but your name suggests that we infidels die. Why not be called "please don't attack us kafirs" you might garner more sympathy that way.

If you are at all serious about knowing why peple dont like the US, please listen to this lecture of the 2005 Nobelprize winner of Litterature.

nobelprize.org...

About 90% of this planet dont agree and/or dislike the US, not because of how it is to live inside the US, - because how the goverment has been acting on the international stage!

Originally posted by j2dayo2late
If you are at all serious about knowing why peple dont like the US, please listen to this lecture of the 2005 Nobelprize winner of Litterature.

nobelprize.org...

About 90% of this planet dont agree and/or dislike the US, not because of how it is to live inside the US, - because how the goverment has been acting on the international stage!

thats what i said

Mod Note: WOT Posting Conduct – Please Review Link.

[edit on 28/12/2005 by Mirthful Me]

I have no issues with the american government or its country men, I was only pointing out that the negitive imput from this countries government has caused a great many problems in todays world.

I do appoligise for stepping over the line.

Talon 565

some `MODS` are blinded by the flag and deafened by the pledge so they don`t like criticism of there country.

Alright-alright-ALRIGHT!!

When it comes to the world and what they think of us, let's get real. I have NO INTENTION of going "over there" to change its mind. And why...WHY...do we fret over what some guy in a rowboat off the coast of Crete thinks of us anyway??*sheesh!*

What is it with some people, that they CAN'T STAND the thought of someone, somewhere, at sometime, NOT loving them?



[edit on 28-12-2005 by Toelint]

Well, it's a Pretty Easy Question.

Why nobody likes America?



Could These Guys have Something to do with it?

Or maybe this Two Lover Birds?

Anyway, I am sure that the People of this World are Truly Happy and Excited that these Few Good Men are Running the Show and calling it Democracy.

I am sure, that the People of this World, are extremly Grateful for what they have done for World Peace.

Anyway, here is A to the Z Answers to Your Questions:

Souljah,

The link you provided are just too pictures of great Americans.

I don't see why you don't think America is a democracy. The majority of Americans voted for and enjoy President George W. Bush. If don't, then don't worry because, in a few years we will have a new President. No big deal.

So, just because the Presidnet of the United States met with important people in the ruling family of another important nation, they are "love birds"??

-- Boat

Seriously man, where do you get your pictures and stories? I’m sure you have hundreds of anti-US sites book-marked. You seriously need to get a hobby and do something else for a change. That's also a contributing factor to the reason of why the US is hated, it comes under more scrutiny then any other country in the world and because people spend all of their time shouting about every single thing we do.



[edit on 28-12-2005 by WestPoint23]

It cannot all be Bush's fought can it.....

This Brit love americans and america just cant stand Bush.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Seriously man, where do you get your pictures and stories? I’m sure you have hundreds of anti-US sites book-marked. You seriously need to get a hobby and do something else for a change. That's also a contributing factor to the reason of why the US is hated, it comes under more scrutiny then any other county in the world and because people spend all of their time shouting about every single thing we do.

or should do, 'save the whales, save the terrorists, save the iraqis, save the insurgents, save the poor, save africa, save this or that and take what you have sacrificed for and give to someone else'

Well not bloody likely mate!

There is an abundance of reasons as to why nobody likes America. As for all you who talk about how people are dying to get here, that's not true. The only reason why most Eoropeans come here is simply because of money. They don't care about the democratic government, the freedom, or any of that crap. They only came/come here because they are starving. I'd know, my grandparents had that problem. They fled their country because they had practically nothing. Now that they are here, they really, really want to come back after 30 years of the 'American' life. The only reason why they havn't yet is because they are used to being with the family members they have in the U.S. Besides the government, Europeans (and other people from different countries) have a problem with the fact that people have too much freedom, they seem to find it messed up that gays and such are getting their way and that the people are rather uncivilized. An example of that is building mountains of butter, swimming in pools of wine, and wasting food in other ways while people through out the world are starving. They also can't stand the fact that Americans often think that the U.S. is better then them. But of course, the lousy U.S. government have much to do with this. It alway's seems to be nosing into everyone else's business, thus the reason for the Iraqi war. Mmmmm, proving my point is proving to be difficult here.......uhhhhhh....... I can't seem to put my thoughts into words here so let's just leave it at what I have above.

I don't care what the rest of the world thinks about us. We are right, and they are wrong. Who cares what a bunch of communists or muslim extremists think, anyway. As people point out, why do they keep wanting to come here? When their countries are fixed and perfect, they might have something worthwhile to say. Actually, the whole premise that the rest of the world dislikes us is false, and the statement is generated by a person seething with self-loathing. Sad, really.

Opinion Pole

Originally posted by masterp
I am not ignoring no one's history - as I have said before, other countries are to blame, including France (for example) for their policies in North Africa. But France has learned its lesson and they have largely stopped the silly game of power & domination.

As much as these ever-growing cascades give me a warm feeling of nostalgia, they are also a great example of why I rarely bother to comment in threads like this one or cruise a forum that seems to have so little to do with its supposed topic.

The reason: there's no point in it. People will believe what they want to believe, and nothing we post to these sorts of threads will change that.

What this all boils down to is that you have your opinions and I have mine. Other people have their opinions.

What I do will depend on my opinions. What you do will depend on your opinions. What other people do will depend on their opinions.

Our opinions will depend on who we are, what we know and what we think about things. They will, consequently, necessarily differ.

You've presented your opinions and I've presented mine. In my opinion, what you're posting proves my point (when you look at the underlying arguments), but you will no doubt disagree.

I'm okay with that, and hope you are, too.

As for everyone else, I invite them to read what we and others have posted -- if they feel like it -- and form their own opinions.

For me to expect anything else would be unreasonable.

For us to go any farther in a point/counterpoint fashion would itself be pointless.

At least, that's my opinion.




Meta Commentary

Here are some “behind the scenes” comments on my contributions to this thread. A sort of “commentary on the commentary”, if you will.

Homina Homina

I recommend not taking anything I post personally, unless I explicitly name names (which I usually put in boldface as a courtesy to the member I name).

For example: if I speak generally of “America haters” and someone interprets that as referring to them, please bear in mind that I wasn't necessarily talking about them.

That's their interpretation (“if the shoe fits”), not mine. So when someone does that, they're telling the world that they think it applies to them. I never said it does.

For the record, I don't consider masterp to be an “America hater”. Rather, just a fellow member who has different opinions on some elements of this discussion, which is by no means any sort of sin. Quite the opposite!

Besides, I don't need to label anyone “America haters” anyway. They are usually quite proud to call themselves that.

Just sayin'.

Majic's “Most Virtuous Nation” Challenge: Unwinnable

My challenge was deliberately intended to be absurd.

The truth is that no nation on earth can withstand the kind of scrutiny the U.S. is exposed to and be considered virtuous. The reason is that the nature of such scrutiny itself is intrinsically flawed, which is my point.

There is no logical way to “win” my “unmatched virtue” challenge. That's because the criteria for “winning” are not only unspecified, but in practice are inherently arbitrary, subjective and -- more often than not -- self-contradictory.

Who decides what is virtuous? The answer to that question is the foundation of the fallacy.

Applying one's own moral standards to someone else as some sort of universal test and then complaining when they fail to pass that test is just another way of attempting to assert dominance over others.

As this thread so admirably shows, this sort of behavior is certainly not limited to Americans, but is in fact the basis for criticizing us. Such criticism, by definition, is hypocrisy.

The complaints resulting from failure to meet these arbitrary standards are really nothing more than indignation over a lack of compliance with the demands of others.

In other words, not doing what others want us to do. A failure to submit. Disobedience.

The folly of thinking “the challenge of virtue” can be won and that any nation can actually live up to the paradoxical demands made on the U.S. -- or any nation in its position, which is what the topic of this thread implies by its very nature -- is precisely what I wanted to illustrate.

Thus I consider my point to be successfully substantiated in this discussion, and I appreciate the assistance I have received in establishing it.

[Quote]For a country that noone likes we sure have our fair share of immigration, both legal and illegal...there's a reason for that. You won't see Americans by the boat load fleeing the states in hopes of starting a new life....you see everyone else comeing to America. [/Quote]

Yes..and just how much longer is that going to continue? It's not Europeans that are ramping up the population density - or destroying entire eco systems.

The only thing I hate about America is the fact that there isn't an effective border between that country and Mexico..and in the next couple of decades when the US population mushrooms taking with it yet more natural resource, just how many of those Europeans are actually going to live in such a place?