Tejas Slippage

According to this months aviation press ADA in India has revealed that the first deliveries of the Tejas to the IAF have now slipped from the promised 2008-09 timescale to 'beyond 2011'.

Does anyone see this as being critical for the programme and maybe see India pulling the plug on this plane, whos developement began at around the same time as the Rafale and Typhoon, or does India have so much invested in the programme that they will see it through to the bitter end?

After all, in Tejas, I think its about more than simply obtaining fighter aircraft. The way I see it is that developing an all new airframe and engine at the same time, plus a navalised version, of any modern fighter is a major undertaking for any nation and India will want to show the world that it can do this for the sake of future programmes if nothing else.

The effort required to develop this programme, in terms of what is required from the Indian industry, puts in on a par with the Rafale, Typhoon and F-22 programmes for their own Industries, in scope if not in end product.

Thoughts?

[edit on 24-12-2005 by waynos]

What's Tejas? It's LCA? If so than the delivery date will be too late. It will be already obsolete. They need to scrap it and start entirely new project.

Originally posted by longbow
What's Tejas? It's LCA?

'Tejas' is the name for the formerly known aircraft program named the LCA, which was to replace the MiG-21's series of multi-mission IAF aircraft.
I ran across an interesting article directly related to what waynos is asking, here:
Scroll down just a bit to: Tejas – Too Little Too Late






seekerof

[edit on 24-12-2005 by Seekerof]

It'll come, it'll come, maybe late, but it cannot be scrapped.
Any links reffering to the 'scrapping' of the LCA?Its replacing the MiG-21, so I don't understand where this concept of it being "obsolete'' arises.
It depends on where you sett he benchmark actually. What are your benchmarks?

I do believe that big projects ake time, sometimes they can keep up with the schedule, sometimes not. Building a plane must be a huge job. And I'am not surpried to see that it is late. They are most likely just preforming some last minute testing etc. etc. That's what I believe. I can't believe that they would close a program that they have spent a lot of moeny on, that juas doesn't sound logical.

But what was the thread about India wants F-35 isntead of Super Hornets... What planes would hey have replaced...??

[edit on 25-12-2005 by Figher Master FIN]

The trouble with this though FIN is that it is not just another slippage, being a lighht fighter it should take less time than its more complex peers, however you can allow for India's inexperience to a large extent.

However, whern this project first started it was supposed to enter service in 1988. It has gone through many changes since then so some of the delays are entirely justified and understandable but for it now to be delayed BEYOND 2011 might stretch the IAF's patience, and the overall credibility of the project, just that little bit too far.

Personally I think it has the makings of an excellent little fighter, but there is no guarantee that this latest delay will be the last and so the question I asked is, I feel, a valid one.

for the amount of money they`ve spent on it , they could have bought a good few Hawk (or even Hawk 200) for the money , and have them in service and equip them with Afterburning engines......

You mean like this?





[edit on 25-12-2005 by waynos]

Waynos, I like the customised lightning model in the background.....wishful thinking I take it!

Sv Out....!

A bit of reality mixed in with a large dose of wishful thinking.

Its a model of how the English Electric P.6 might have looked if it was in RAF service in 1970.

The P.6 was a complete redesign of the Lightning that was to be powered by a single Rolls Royce Thames engine (never actually built) and armed with 4 AAM's as shown. It was intended to have a faster climb than the Lightning and top out at M=2.5 to intercept the dreaded M-52 Bounder (that also never saw service)

Here's a better pic, if you compare it with a Lightning you will see how much shallower the circular section fuselage was by comparison.





[edit on 25-12-2005 by waynos]

Looks good! Iworked on the old "solder blobs" a fair few years ago and they were a treat to watch...especially doing a "rotate" at the end of the runway with full burners...at night!

I bet you though it still would have had the same old problem...lack of internal capacity for fuel!

Having strapped in a few of the fighter jocks to the beast they all said they had four chances of downing a intruder, missile's (2 of ), guns and finally raming the thing with the lightning!

Obviously they would have banged out before the collision occured but it did make you question their sanity....!

As for your original thread it does not matter how much time and money has been spent on a project if the political will has changed its a goner...i.e Nimrod AEW!

Sv Out....!

Great stuff, thanks! About fuel, yes, it only had one engine to feed, but it was going to be a bloody big and thirsty one!

But you are right, I should try to haul this thread back on topic (thats the Tejas delay, for anyone who has forgotten by now)

An other probles with this would be that the tecnincs and instruments that they were supposed to use in the 1980 have already gotten to the position that they are too old to be used in a modern fighter. In my opinion it depends very much how much money they have spent in this projcet. if they ahve used a lot of money, they wouldn't have closed it, but if it was a plane that has only been in a "protorype" stage, it is very possible that the program is closed...

Just ran across these below linked articles, waynos.
Shame, cause it is dated December 1st.
Successful maiden flight for combat aircraft Tejas
Here is a more considerably indepth article, also dated December 1st:
Fourth generation of India's combat aircraft joins test-phase

Not sure of the full validity of the source, but if accurate, then apparently, weapons and avionics package integrations should soon follow. Probably another reason that India asked for AESA from the US. Full serial production and numbers are apparently still unknown, but it does look like that the Tejas is better late than never.






seekerof

[edit on 27-12-2005 by Seekerof]

a few points :

> The Tejas's PV-2(production standard) just flew a few days back. All systems of the LCA have now been developed, tested and integrated on the Tejas. Overall testing now remains.
PV-2 flies; Tejas enters test phase now
Here are some pics of it :




> The indigenous Astra BVRAAM (>100km range) has also been test fired.

> Overall the Tejas has completed 480 test flights, and the weekly update on the project can be viewed on the official website.

> Weapons and radar integration are complete.

Weapons integration on the LCA (2004) details (large pic) >

> The first production Tejas will rollout in June 2006 - December 21 article

> 'Tejas Navy'- the naval variant is to enter service in conjuction with India's indigenous aircraft carrier ADS in 2011.

> Waynos - The IAF will start recieving the LSP's starting 2008. However these will have the GE F-404 IN20 engines instead of the indigenous Kaveri engine. However the 'real Teajs' - i.e the one with the Kaveri engine will only come out beyond 2011 as stated. (the Kaveri is to make the Tejas supercruise as stated by the father of the LCA prgramme - Kota Hanumanthiah).

The production Kaveri, with a reheat thrust of 20,200 lbs. (90kN), will be more powerful than the 17,000 lbs Snecma M88-2 now powering the twin-engined Rafale. It matches the output of the uprated M88-3. GTRE says the version of the Kaveri will have a turbine entry temperature of 1 ,8500 C and single-crystal turbine blades being developed by GTRE with the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory. Directionally solidified blades are now used. The new variant, which India says will be at the technology level of the M88-3, will have a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1. A new combustor will be shorter and lighter than the present unit.
The increased, dry thrust should allow the aircraft to supercruise (cruise supersonically without the use of reheat). Also under development is a thrust-vectoring nozzle, to enhance its agility, as well as a digital engine control system. The axisymmetric TV nozzle is planned to be flight tested on a later prototype. Plans are already under way for derivatives of the Kaveri; a non-afterburning version for an advanced jet trainer, a high bypass-ratio turbo fan based on the Kaveri core, as well as variants for other applications.

link

Also this news piece (dated Nov 26, 2005)seems to disagree with your press reports :

IAF to procure 126 LCAs by 2010

Panaji, Nov 26. (PTI): Indian Air Force is in the process of procuring 126 light combat aircraft (LCA) by 2010, Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi said here.

"The aircraft would be procured towards the end of this decade and no specific deadline is set for it," Tyagi told reporters during a ceremonial passing-out parade at INS Mandovi, Goa. full article >>

> The Kaveri engine is presently in deep trouble. From what i gather at sepped in the excess of 1.4 Mach, there is some serious vibration. Also, something called "flame stabilisation" at speeds beyond Mach 1.2 is another technical challenge that is being faced.

> To help out with the Kaveri on these flaws that arise at supersonic speeds, a new 1 billion $ tender is in place. The bidders include General Electric, Pratt & Whittney, NPO Saturn, SECMA and Rolls Royce.

> The programme is far from being cancelled this year the Government allocated more money to the LCA programme than ever before. The ADA has also announced its plans for the stealthy MCA, a development of the LCA and the Government has alredy made the initial funding for it.

> The total requirement for the Tejas is 200+ as stated by the IAF air chief marshal and the officals at ADA and HAL.

> The total money spent on the LCA programme till date is around 1.5 billion $.

> It should be stressed that the LCA programme was since the very beginning aimed not only at the design and manufacture of new state-of-the-art combat aircraft per se! but more broadly at the establishment of an integrated scientific/industrial capability to develop and put in production a complete airborne weapon system in all its elements: airframe engine, avionics fire control system based on multi-mode radar, electronic countermeasure suite, on-board systems and components, wind tunnels, testing rigs, engines and so on. In other words the true final goal is to leverage on the LCA programme for the creation of a new technology base in India covering the whole spectrum of disciplines related to the design and manufacturing of combat aircraft.

> It is quite clear that such a very ambitious effort necessarily implies accepting substantial risks, particularly as regards the development schedule. Such risks however must be evaluated and assessed in view of the long-term goal as mentioned above, and not simply in relation to the timeframe for the development and operational deployment of the LCA. This point is apparently lost to many(especially those in the Indian media) of those who criticise or even ridicule the LCA for being over 6 years behind schedule, and demand its cancellation at the hint of a delay!

> Since the real long-term goal of the LCA programme is to establish the required industrial capabilities to design and produce all the components of a latest generation combat aircraft. In this aspect, IMHO the LCA programme is a grand sucess. From almost scratch, India has built up the necessary technical and industrial expertise to make and build a 4+ generation aircraft.



Tejas in a nutshell for some members :

Span = 8.2 m
Length = 13.2 m
Height = 4.4 m
Empty Weight = 5500 kg
Max take off weight = 12,500+ kg

Type > Single-seat light weight all-weather multi-role air superiority Fighter

Aerodynamics > Tail-less Compound delta planform with relaxed static stability

Powerplant >One Kaveri turbofan engine of 81kN thrust with FADEC (TVC planned and in development)
Prototypes and LSP's use F-404's

Airframe > Materials include Aluminium - Lithium alloys , Titanium alloy and Carbon compositites. Composities for wing (skin , spars and ribs ) fuselage (doors and skins), elevons, fin, rudder, airbrakes and landing gear doors. More than 45% of the total materials used are composites (arguably the highest for any airplane till date)

Sensors > Multimode pulse Doppler with multitarget search, track-while-scan and ground mapping. Also included are Radar Warning Receiver, Laser Warning Receiver, Missile Approach Warner, new generation IRST, Lightening Laser Designation Pod, Friend/Foe identification system, Tarang HADF/SIVA pod.

Cockpit > Glass cockpit with two Multi Function Displays, Head-Up Display , Multi Function Keyboard and Get-You-Home Panel , Hands on Throttle and Stick (HOTAS)

Avionics > Configured around three MIL-STD-1553B digital data buses, 32 - bit mission computer with software written using ADA language, 32-bit Mission Computer (MC) (which performs mission oriented computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-tests). Accurate navigation and guidance is realised through RLG based Inertial Navigation System (INS) with provision for INS / Global Positioning System (GPS) integration, Jam resistant radio commumication system with advanced Electronic Warfare (EW) environment. In the EW suite, Electromagnetic and Electroptic receivers and jammers provide the necessary "soft-kill" capability, Integrated Digital Avionics Suite (characterised by its interface with all other aircraft systems such as Utility Systems Management System (USMS), Proplsion System, Electrical System and Flight control System) 8kb/second datalink, Full Glass cockpit

Flight Controls > Quadruplex Digital Fly-by-wire flight control system that provides carefree handling.
The digital FBW system of the LCA is built around a quadruplex redundant architecture to give it a fail op-fail op-fail safe capability. It employs a powerful Digital Flight Control Computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each powered by an independent power supply and all housed in a single line replaceable unit (LRU). The system is designed to meet a probability of loss of control of better than 1x10-7 per flight hour. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a safe subset of Ada language for the implementation of software. The DFCC receives signals from quad rate, acceleration sensors, pilot control stick, rudder pedal, triplex air data system, dual air flow angle sensors, etc. The DFCC channels excite and control the elevon, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like multifunction displays through MIL-STD-1553B avionics bus and RS 422 serial link.

External Stores > Seven stations for a wide range of air-to-air missiles,anti-ship missiles, unguided rockets, conventional / retarded bombs. Provision for Drop tanks , Recce Pods, EW and other sensor pods.

Stealth Features > More than 90% of the LCA's wings and an even greater percent of its tailplane, etc is made of composites which are inherently stealthier than metal. Y-shaped air inlet ducts hide the engine blades. Its very small size and simple tail-less delta winged configuration ensure a very low RCS. Further Radar absorbent maiertials will be coated on the exterior. Infact the DRDO has publically stated that its RCS (when not treated with RAM) less than 1/3rd that of Mirage-2000's.

Unit Cost > 21 million $

_____________

A few CAD images :















Posted with thanks to ADA

The tail section >>


_____

This is a MUST SEE >> Technical document on the High AoA testing of the LCA (946 kb pdf file - with illustrations)

_______

Pics of the LCA's sub systems - all indigenously made :

Environmental System components >>

LCA's Tarang Radar Warning Reciever System >>

More Tarang components >>

The HUD and the MFD's >>

Pilot Clothing >>

Laser Threat Warning System >>

Laser Target Designator >>

Mission Computers >>

Cockpit instrumentation >>

More Avionics components >>

Avionics components >>

More Avionics components (from HAL)

Night vision systems >>

The airborne interrogator >>

SIVA - externally carried phased interferometry ESM system HADF pod

The Multi Mode Radar >>

Laser Ring Gyro / INS >>

The GTRE Kaveri engine (19,000 lbs / 82 kN thrust)>>

The Kaveri engine starter - GSTU -10

GSTU-10 details >>

____
It is also noteworthy to add that the LCA's FCS systems are up to the standard of the Eurofighter, and is much more advanced than the Rafale, the Gripen the Mirage-2000-5 and the F-16 block 50.

The LCA and the Eurofighter have a fully digital quadruplex fly by wire systems that gives them care free handleing ... the Rafale, Gripen and the F-16 block 50 have 3 digital and 1 analog systems...while the Mirage 2000-5 has all its four FBW systems as analog.

More on the LCA's FCS > architecture, FBW actuators, etc .. (click on link below the thumbnails)


Click here for larger pic



Click here for larger pic


Click here for larger pic

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Here is a new pic of the PV-1 in the latest colour scheme :




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Here is a graph compiled in "Maku Timmah"'s website ... that shows the progress in the LCA's flight testing upto August 2005. ( the site has not been updated later). Presently the PV-2 has made its flights as well and the total flight count for the LCA is at 480.




Here is a very cool pic of the Tejas TD-1 : link

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Air Forces Monthly - Vayu had a 2 part article on the Tejas written by B.Harry. Its a great read and a comprehensive resource on the Tejas. Please take time to read it.


Page 1

Page 2

Page 3

Page 4

Page 5

Page 6

Page 7

Page 8

Page 9

Page 10

Page 11

Page 12

[edit on 28-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
The first production Tejas will rollout in June 2006...

But will not be introduced into the IAF till around 2009-2011.

Waynos - The IAF will start recieving the LCA's starting 2008.

Other reliable sourcing indicate that it will not be 2008, but more likely 2009-2011, as indicated above.

However these will have the GE F-404 IN20 engines instead of the indigenous Kaveri engine. However the 'real Teajs' - i.e the one with the Kaveri engine will only come out beyond 2011 as stated. (the Kaveri is to make the Tejas supercruise as stated by the father of the LCA prgramme - Kota Hanumanthiah).

Correct, based upon an average of all reliable sourcing on the LCA.
Also, the Kaveri engine is speculated to allow the LCA to supercruise, not that it has factly done so. It is mere educated speculation till proven otherwise.

Also this news piece (dated Nov 26, 2005)seems to disagree with your press reports :

IAF to procure 126 LCAs by 2010

Umm, no. Actually, it disagrees with your assertion that the LCA be introduced into the IAF by 2008, as quoted above.

The Kaveri engine is presently in deep trouble. From what i gather at sepped in the excess of 1.4 Mach, there is some serious vibration.

And yet, despite these serious problems, you boast as fact that the Kaveri will allow the LCA to supercruise?

The ADA has also announced its plans for the stealthy MCA, a development of the LCA and the Government has alredy made the initial funding for it.

And again, according to an average of sources covering the MCA, IF everything goes according to the timely plan, the MCA will not be introduced into the IAF till 2012-2015.

The total requirement for the Tejas is 200+ as stated by the IAF air chief marshal and the officals at ADA and HAL.

Cool.

The total money spent on the LCA programme till date is around 1.5 billion $.

Got a breakdown of this sourced? Are the numbers the R&D costs or design & testing costs or a combined total overall cost?

This point is apparently lost to many(especially those in the Indian media) of those who criticise or even ridicule the LCA for being over 6 years behind schedule, and demand its cancellation at the hint of a delay!

I find what you have said concerning the delay of the LCA to be humorous and ironic, being you were one of a few members that ridiculed the F-22 for its delay and costs.

From almost scratch, India has built up the necessary technical and industrial expertise to make and build a 4+ generation aircraft.

The LCA is a 4th generation aircraft. Here, as well, I find what you say conflicting with your past mentions concerning the LCA being 4th generation. Now, as of this post, you are boasting that the LCA is a "4+ generation aircraft".

It is also noteworthy to add that the LCA's FCS systems are up to the standard of the Eurofighter, and is much more advanced than the Rafale, the Gripen the Mirage-2000-5 and the F-16 block 50.

Highly debatable.
The most advanced 4th generation aircraft is the Gripen, followed by the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16C Block 70, among other mentions like the MiG-29/30, etc.
The most advanced 4+ generation aircraft is the EF-2000 and Rafale.
The LCA will not be competition for the likes of the EF-2000 and Rafale.

The LCA and the Eurofighter have a fully digital quadruplex fly by wire systems that gives them care free handleing ... the Rafale, Gripen and the F-16 block 50 have 3 digital and 1 analog systems...while the Mirage 2000-5 has all its four FBW systems as analog.

And? This does not imply that the LCA will be equal to the EF-2000. The LCA is and foremost a light-fighter, LCA=light combat aircraft, contrary to what the EF-2000 and Rafale are, among other aircraft you are comparing the LCA to.








seekerof

That was a part political broadcast on behalf of the Tejas Party.

Very comprehensive stealth spy, but I am asking for member opinions, not a deluge of facts.

By the way, all the facts contained in your post above that relate specifically to the PV-2 do not contradict what is in the report I was referrring to, it is all there, but it also points out that the PV-2 joined the test programme 9 months late and comments that ;

"production of the Tejas for the Indian Air Force is still planned to commence in 2008 with service entry in 2010 but it seems unlikely that this will be achieved".

However I agree with you (if you see my first post) that the real importance of the programme is where the Indian aerospace industry is at by the end of it more than the fighter itself. However this is a luxury that HAL and ADA need to make the most of because I can't see it happening again.

Originally posted by Seekerof
But will not be introduced into the IAF till around 2009-2011.

The 8 LSP's will officially belong to HAL. You dont expect HAL to opeate these airplanes do you? If they are used by the IAF ..then it wont be an official induction.

Correct, based upon an average of all reliable sourcing on the LCA.
Also, the Kaveri engine is speculated to allow the LCA to supercruise, not that it has factly done so. It is mere educated speculation till proven otherwise.

I agree. However the "speculation" comes from a very senior person.

you boast as fact that the Kaveri will allow the LCA to supercruise?

i only quoted a link.

And again, according to an average of sources covering the MCA, IF everything goes according to the timely plan, the MCA will not be introduced into the IAF till 2012-2015.

Yes that is correct.

Got a breakdown of this sourced? Are the numbers the R&D costs or design & testing costs or a combined total overall cost?

Its the total amount of money ever spent on the LCA programme in all. R&D, testing all included.

The most advanced 4th generation aircraft is the Gripen, followed by the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16C Block 70, among other mentions like the MiG-29/30, etc.

I think you got that wrong. The Gripen is not even close to the block 60 F-16. block 70 does not exist as yet. same goes for the Mig-35 and Super Hornet.

The LCA will not be competition for the likes of the EF-2000 and Rafale.

Yes i agree.

This does not imply that the LCA will be equal to the EF-2000. The LCA is and foremost a light-fighter, LCA=light combat aircraft, contrary to what the EF-2000 and Rafale are, among other aircraft you are comparing the LCA to.

Please. I am not doing a LCS v/s Rafale or LCA v/s Eurofighter as you think.
Clearly they represent different classes of airplanes.

I only highlighted on the the specific aspect of FCS .. where the LCA is as good as it can get. Ditto for the avionics and the sensor suite.



[edit on 28-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]

a picture of an aircraft that doesn`t exist.apparantly.


That is an F/A-18E SUPER HORNET as used IN SERVICE by the USN.


nice BIG picture here:

public.andrews.amc.af.mil...


the Gripen - JAS-39C IS a match for the block 60 F-16 , you`ve said so yourself (with the feature list of the JAS-39) when you wanted to show it was better than the EF2000

At the latest count, the Tejas has completed 503 test flights, with the PV1 & PV2 having done 112 & 2 respectively.

I seriously doubt that the programme will be scrapped. Its come too far for that to happen now. Plus i do not see any other aircraft on offer that can replace the huge numbers of Mig-21s that India has. Remeber cost is a factor here.

Finally the R&D funds that have been spent are worth it as they have created from scratch, as has been mentioned earlier, all the required infrastructure for the development of future aircraft