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Immaculate Conception

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posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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The most common theme found within the life story of the world’s Messiahs is that of an immaculate birth to a virgin mother. Below is a short biography of each Immaculate Conception:



The oldest recorded account (before 2000 BCE) of the Immaculate Conception is the birth of Gilgamesh:

Child of Lugal banda's wife and some great force,
Gilgamesh is a fate alive, the
finest babe of Ninsun, she who never
let a man touch her, indeed
so sure and heavenly, so without sin.


Perseus

The Greek hero, Perseus, was the immaculately born son of princess Danae. whose father, King Acrisius (king of Argos), locked her away from the world in an underground bronze chamber in chamber. Zeus penetrated into the bronze chamber of Danae through a hole in the ceiling (symbol of the pineal gland) and descended upon her as a golden shower. Thus Perseus was conceived.



Plato
Plato wrote about the universal archetype of a second God (the Christ) who impressed himself on the universe in the form of a cross, and his divine man (his incarnation) who would be scourged, tormented, fettered, and have his eyes burnt out; and lastly having suffered all manner of evils, would be crucified. According to the Greek philosopher Speusippus (4th cent. bce) "the divine" Plato was the "son of Apollo" and was himself the product of an immaculate conception.

Romulus and Remus

The tyrant King Amulius compelled the chaste Rhea Silvia to become a Vestal Virgin so that she would not bear a son and legitimate heir to the throne. Much to his dismay she bore two sons, the legendary forbears of the Roman civilization. Romulus and Remus were celebrated as the sons of the god Mars, whom favored Rhea Silvia as she drew water from his sacred spring.

Dionysus

The Greek Dionysus (Bacchus to Romans), titled “twice-born” by his followers, was born to the virgin Semele.

And the Kadmeid Semele bore an illustrious son, much-cheering Dionysus, after joining Zeus in love, mortal with immortal; now they both are gods.

Krishna

Krishna was lawfully born to his virgin mother Devaki. The newborn Krishna even addresses her in the “Bhagavad Purana” as “chaste lady” in accounts of his birth. It is written that Vishnu, “Lord of all things”, entered the Mind of Vasudeva (Krishna’s physical father) and in due time Devaki bore the manifestation of the infallible Lord…deposited in her womb by Vasudeva…by mental transmission.



Mithra

Referred to by the faithful as “the Light of the World,” Mithra is recorded over 2500 years ago as a Persian savior born of the virgin Anahita, "the Immaculate One."

Huitzilopochtli

Huitzilopochtli was immaculately born of his virgin mother Coatlicue, who was impregnated by a ball of down (from the Quetzal bird / Dove of the Holy Spirit) descended from heaven.



Quetzalcoatl

In the Codex Vaticanus the virgin Chimalman was visited by an ambassador of heaven who proclaimed God’s will that she should give birth to a divine son. As soon as he left her house Chimalman conceived a son, Quetzalcoatl. In some versions of his birth Quetzalcoatl was born (like Mithra and Qi) from a stone, a precious stone of either jade or emerald.

Hunahpu and Xbalanque

The virgin maiden Xquic (“Blood Moon”) conceived the Mayan hero-twins, Hunahpu and Xbalanque, when the sacrificed head of Hun Hunahpu spat in her extended hand and said, “It is just a sign I have given you, my saliva.” When asked by her father who was responsible for her pregnancy Xquic replied, “There is no man whose face I’ve known…What’s in my belly generated all by itself when I went to marvel at the head of Hun Hunahpu…”

Zarathustra

Zarathustra's virgin mother Dughdova was impregnated when the glory of Ahura Mazda (“the Supreme Lord of the Universe”) descended from heaven and entered her house. His soul was placed by Ahura Mazda in the sacred Haoma plant and he was conceived through the essence of Haoma in milk.

Chuchulainn

The hero Chuchulainn was born of the solar god Lugh (his physical father was the prophet Sualtimh, also said to be of virgin birth) and the maiden Dechtire. By the divine grace of Lugh (solar fire), Dechtire was impregnated in a dream while laying by the river Boyne (water).

Merlin

The renowned yet mysterious magician Merlin (from Welsh ‘Myrrdin’ = Hawk or British ‘Moridunon’= sea fortress) was recorded to be of an immaculate birth between a parent from the Otherworld and a virgin maiden of royal lineage.

Taliesin

The great sage and magician Taliesin was the immaculate progeny of the sorceress Ceridwyn. Ceridwyn prepared a potent brew that would reveal all the mysteries of the universe to the one who drank it. It was intended for her son Afaggdu (“Utter Darkness”). But three drops spat out of the bubbling brew onto the finger of a small boy named Gwion (“White, Shining”), who licked them off and immediately received the wisdom intended for Afaggdu. Ceridwyn pursued the boy. He turned into a hare and she became a hound, he turned into a Fish, and she became an otter…and so forth until he became a grain of wheat and she transformed into a hen and ate him. Ceridwyn soon found she was pregnant and in due course gave birth to the reborn Gwion. He was so beautiful that she couldn’t bring herself to kill him. Instead she trussed him up in a leather bag and threw him into the sea (ala Perseus, Karttikeya, Romulus and Remus, Moses, Maui, etc.). He was found and adopted by the nephew of the king of Dyfed, who named him Taliesin (“Shining Brow”).



Fohi

A nymph bathing in a river in China was touched by a lotus plant, and the divine Fohi (called ‘him who is one and three’), founder of the Chinese empire, was conceived. In another version Fohi’s virgin mother, Moyë, was walking along a river bank, when she became suddenly encircled by a rainbow and conceived a divine son.

Samonocodom

In Siam, a wandering sunbeam caressed a young virgin girl, referred to as “the Praying Lady”, and the great and wonderful deliverer, Samonocodom, was conceived.

Dung Ming

In the Korean tradition the heroic Dung Ming was conceived when a girl in the harem of the first king of Korai saw a cloud or ray of light enter her bosom. The pregnancy was suspect (implying her Chastity) and the king ordered that she be put to death. But upon hearing her story he let her give birth to the child. Dung Ming was born and despite several attempts on his life by the king, he grew up to be king of Fuyu and founder of the Korean race.

Alan-ko

Alan-ko of the early Mongols was said to have four immaculate conceptions (including the birth of Bodunchar, progenitor of Ghengis Khan) upon being visited by a 'golden glittering man' who would enter the domicile by way of the smoke hole (i.e. Zeus with Danae) and stroke her belly, his light penetrating into her womb.

Fu Xi

The Chinese God, Fu Xi, was immaculately conceived when his mother stepped into the footprint of the god of thunder, or the Great Man. Covered by a marvelous brilliance her belly felt suddenly warmed and she later discovered that she was pregnant. The Chinese hero Hou Chi is believed to have been born in the same way.

Heroic Grandsons

The heroic grandsons of the Japanese sun goddess, Hikohohodemi (“Prince-Fire-Shade”) and Hosuseri (“Prince-Fire-Shine”) were the immaculately born sons of Kono-Hana-Sakuya-Hime (“Blossoms-of-the-Trees-Blooming-Princess”). Because she miraculously conceived on the night of her wedding, her doubtful husband accused her of infidelity. Thus she built a muro, a small dwelling, and at the moment of birth set fire to it exclaiming, "If that which is in my womb is not the offspring of the Heavenly Grandchild, it will certainly be destroyed by fire, but if it is really the offspring of the Heavenly Grandchild, fire can not harm it." Needless to say, she and her fire-born sons (three by some accounts) emerged unharmed from the inferno.

Buddha Shakyamuni

An account of the Buddha Shakyamuni’s immaculate birth is found in the Buddhacarita:

These two (the mother and father of Shakyamuni) tasted of love's delights, and one day she conceived the fruit of her womb, but without any defilement, in the same way in which knowledge joined to trance bears fruit.



Padmasambhava

The astonishing Padmasambhava of Buddhist tradition was immaculately born without a mother or a father. According to the prevailing versions of his birth, and based on his own dictations, Padmasambhava was born from a lotus blossom (and that is the meaning of his name). A ray of red light (fire of the Holy Spirit) pierced the center of a lake of exceptionally pure qualities (due to transmutation) named Ocean of Milk or The Dazzling Immaculate Lake. A large, immaculate lotus blossom appeared “and from the heart of the Great Compassionate One, I, Padma, the Lotus Born Guru was emanated as the syllable “HRI” (the Verb).

Garab Dorje

Regarded as the originator of the Dzogchen school of Buddhism, Garab Dorje was miraculously born to a virgin and daughter of King Dharmasoka of India. He was placed in a burning pit for seven days. Remembering a dream foretelling his divine birth, the princess drew him from the pit unscathed and named him Rolang Dewa.

Karttikeya

The Indian Savior and Demon slayer Karttikeya was born from a seed of Shiva (Third Aspect of Hindu Trinity, Holy Spirit), via Agni (God of Fire), who dropped it into the Ganges (waters of life, Yesod). Hence he was sometimes called Agnibhuva (Agni’s son) and Ganga-putra (Son of Ganges), a boy bright as the sun and beautiful as the moon. Karttikeya was (as recommended by Jesus to Nicodemus) born of water and (the fire) of the Holy Spirit. In another version of Karttikeya’s birth it was written that he was born from fire that fell from the third eye of the god Siva (Holy Spirit) into a lake (waters of Yesod) near Madras.

Pandava Brothers

The Pandava brothers, the central heroes of the ancient Indian spiritual epic The Mahabharata, were each born of a virgin mother (despite several pregnancies) and God(s). It is even clarified for the reader when Surya, the Sun god, offers Kunti the boon “of a powerful child like myself” and she bashfully replies, “Please instruct me how it may be done without my losing my chastity”, the god reassures her, “How could I, who desires the welfare of all beings, cause anyone to commit a sinful act, which leads only to Suffering? Do not Fear. Even after uniting with me, you will remain a virgin.”



Dhyani Boddhisattva Vajrasattva

The Dhyani Boddhisattva Vajrasattva predicted of Padmasambhava from the arc of a rainbow (the Logoii) while accompanied by seventy-two thousand gods (72 = 7 + 2 = 9, the waters of Yesod)

Star Boy

Meanwhile, on the other side of the world the same stories of immaculately born Saviors were being told amidst the Native American tribes. One such story, widespread among the Plains tribes, was that of Star Boy. Star Boy, was immaculately born to a virgin whom fell in love with a star (the inner star of her Being). He was adopted and eventually grew up to be a monster-slayer. At the climax of his adventures he died when a snake (of the Kundalini) entered his body resulting in his resurrection to immortality as the Morning Star.



Posayamo of the Pueblo

The legendary Posayamo of the Pueblo was born to a virgin while she ate pine nuts. Changing Woman of the Navajo immaculately conceived the twins Nayenezgani (“Monster-Slayer”) and Tobadjishtchini (“Child-of-the-Water”) when she stepped dripping with water into the light of the sun. The twins went on a dangerous journey to reach the house of their father the sun god.

Thoth

In Egyptian Mythology, Toth, like Padmasambhava, was regarded in certain Egyptian texts as self-created or “who came forth from the god himself”, created from the heart of Ra (the Logos).

Osiris

Nut, the mother of the Egyptian Savior Osiris, was worshipped as the Great Mother, yet an Immaculate Virgin. This is an indirect reference to the immaculate birth of Osiris, whom eventually became identified as the Divine Father aspect of the Logos and as Brother, and Husband of Isis who was also born of the Immaculate Virgin Nut and her brother-husband Geb.

Horus

Isis is the Divine Mother of the Egyptian pantheon and the virgin mother of the Egyptian Second Logos, Horus. Isis conceived her divine child as she fluttered around the murdered body of Osiris in the form of a bird. In addition to being the son of Isis it is established in many accounts that Horus is also her brother, born of Nut. One account that attempts to clarify this relationship depicts his birth as the result of the love between Osiris and Isis while they were yet in the womb of Nut. Thus he is born from Nut as the brother and son of Isis. This apparent ‘jumble’ of interfamilial relationships is an important theme throughout all world traditions.

Amenhotep

Within the great temple of Luxor is illustrated the drama of the annunciation, conception and birth of Amenhotep (Amenophis in Greek) III the magnificent, a Pharaoh credited with bringing Egypt to its highest power in ancient times through great diplomatic and economic achievements. The first scene depicts the god Thoth in the act of hailing the virgin queen Mut-em-ua, announcing to her that she is to give birth to a son. In the second scene the god Kneph (assisted by Hathor, the Sacred Cow) mystically impregnates the queen by holding an Ankh cross to her mouth.



Jesus

Promised by the angel Gabriel that she would give birth to “the Son of the Highest”, the virgin (Mary), espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, replied “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” And the angel answered, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” And thus the Blessed Virgin Mary immaculately conceived Jesus. Mary was herself believed in early Christian times to have been born of a virgin. One source of Mary's immaculate conception was John of Damascus, who asserted that Mary's parents were filled and purified by the Holy Ghost, and freed from sexual concupiscence. Likewise, the Catholic Encyclopedia confirms (Immaculate Conception), that even the human element (of Mary's origin), the material of which she was formed, was pure and holy. In other words, the Roman Catholic doctrine dictates that the virgin birth of Jesus was unoriginal as, like Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived without sin.



For more indepth information on any of these Immaculate Conceptions please read The Immaculate Conception.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Conclusion

Quite obviously the drama of immaculate conception is not the exclusive domain of any one religion or world ideology. Is it coincidence that for 5000 years, virtually every religious and mythological belief structrure, some of which had never come into contact, has in one way or another incorporated the mysterious Immaculate Conception?

It becomes even more astounding when we realize that society, in the main, has been patriarchal and often chauvinistic throughout known human history. It wouldn't seem possible that the makers of religious myths/teachings, which we know must have surely been men, since men have always been the storytellers/shaman/chiefs/priests, would invent some sort of divine providence which excluded human male participation as its main course of operation. (Thanks queenannie
)

Thanks for reading, please feel free to add your comments, theories etc... I've tried to set this topic on a high and neutral podium for logical discussion from an inquiring perspective. I hope we can keep it that way.

I'll leave you with two questions:

What is it that made mankind start to ponder the idea of an Immaculate Conception?

What physical act is the Immaculate Conception alluding to?




Inverencial Peace,
Akashic


[edit on 24/12/2005 by AkashicWanderer]




posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 08:51 AM
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Wow! That's quite a compilation.


I believe the virgin birth sory is astrotheology. Considering how wide spread it is, it likely predates recorded history, passed down during the ages when seasons were tracked by watchng the stars.

The 'virgin' is virgo. The birth of the son/sun represents the coming spring. I suspect this story dates back to when the winter solstice accured in virgo. The last time this happened was about 12,000 BCE.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 10:29 AM
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Nice job AkashicWanderer, well put together.

In defense of the word of God and Bible believers; satan knew of the forth coming of Christ looong before any human. satan only knows how to mix and mirror. The immaculate birth's of other false gods is his way to bring people over to his camp and to create doubt in believers in Christ. satan has been deceiving since the beginning of time...

"See, the virgin birth is nothing new... It is just a rip off of insert Babylonian/pagan theology here. Come on in the water is warm just how you like it." -satan

Q:What is it that made mankind start to ponder the idea of an Immaculate Conception?

A: satan's influence in a world of sin. Separation from God.

Q:What physical act is the Immaculate Conception alluding to?

A: It is alluding to the deception of the truth.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch
In defense of the word of God and Bible believers; satan knew of the forth coming of Christ looong before any human. satan only knows how to mix and mirror. The immaculate birth's of other false gods is his way to bring people over to his camp and to create doubt in believers in Christ. satan has been deceiving since the beginning of time...



I have said this before also. All these false virgin births are a copy from God's plan not the other way around. And to the roman catholic church the immaculate conception refers to Mary not Jesus which is another mistake.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by GameSetMatch
In defense of the word of God and Bible believers; satan knew of the forth coming of Christ looong before any human. satan only knows how to mix and mirror. The immaculate birth's of other false gods is his way to bring people over to his camp and to create doubt in believers in Christ. satan has been deceiving since the beginning of time...



I have said this before also. All these false virgin births are a copy from God's plan not the other way around. And to the roman catholic church the immaculate conception refers to Mary not Jesus which is another mistake.


why are those "virgin births" false ?? why do you think jesus's birth was real??



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 02:57 PM
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so we are comapring the vigin conception of deities, giving birth to another god, while in an attempt to discredit the conception of a mortal women with original sin giving birth as a virigin to a sinless Man-god?

btw, Mary didn't stay a vigin



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch
satan knew of the forth coming of Christ looong before any human.


Many of these stories preceed the Bible. Either Satan knows the mind of god, or god told him what he was planning. But god is omniscient, right? So he would know in advance what Satan would do with that information.

The only possible conclusion is that god wants us to be deceived. If that's the case, then odds are you are in fact deceived along with the rest of us.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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Why would sex be considered a sin? Didn't God say "Go forth and multiply"?
I mean ... did he put us here to live one generation and then die off? I don't think so...... that would be stupid.
I think man(the church) considers sex a sin, that way they can controll the masses.


I believe organized religion made anything sexual in nature to be a sin and I also believe that they added the part about "Immaculate conception" to make that sexual act OK in the eyes of the followers.

To sum it all up, I believe that the "Immaculate Conception" never really happened. Yup, Mary and Joseph did the nasty and God influenced the soul of the resulting child. Isn't that a little easier to believe?



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 06:41 PM
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Nice stuff and good work. I have copied your post for further investigation. A messianic expectation is, as you point out, common in most early religious constructs. I imagine that every collection of 10 or 15 or more wanderers in Mesopotamia had their very own messianic expectation best described as a strong individual on a white horse who would ride in, take real estate away from its current claimants and give it directly to the tribe in question.
As to virgin births, they are possible but the offspring is always the same sex (gender) as the mother.
Finally, one of your segments (I found your post fascinating and will read every word) mentions the word sin. I may be mistaken but I think the word sin was added to the bible by the English, probably buring the KJV translation where little if any real scholarship was done as the revission was mostly plagiarized from the real scholarship of Wyecliffe and Tyndal.
Good stuff; I am really interested in - origins -.
Keep up the good work
skep



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by plague
why are those "virgin births" false ?? why do you think jesus's birth was real??

That is questions only you can find the answers to... I could give you all the information, historical events, tracks, and Bible verses in the world, but there comes a time when you have to step out in faith. You need to search for your self with all your heart; By Faith, alone is why I believe.



Originally posted by Jehosephat
...while in an attempt to discredit the conception of a mortal women with original sin giving birth as a virigin to a sinless Man-god?

In what context do you mean by "original sin" there is many different concepts on this term; which one and how do you mean?

Originally posted by Jehosephat
btw, Mary didn't stay a vigin

That is correct. After Jesus, mary had other children. Joseph honored Mary while she carried. Says a lot about the character of Joseph. --Think if your wife/GF was pregnant and it was not your baby...




Originally posted by spamandham
Many of these stories preceed the Bible.

That is absolutely correct.

Originally posted by spamandham
Either Satan knows the mind of god, or god told him what he was planning. But god is omniscient, right? So he would know in advance what Satan would do with that information.

satan was the number one angel (Lucifer) of God and satan did know Jesus long before anyone. God has no equal; satan is not an equal to God nor could he be. He still kneels before God, he still needs permission.

Originally posted by spamandham
The only possible conclusion is that god wants us to be deceived. If that's the case, then odds are you are in fact deceived along with the rest of us.

No, God wants us to obey him. We choose to be deceived when we transgress from Gods law that is our choice. If you think that I have became deceived that is your choice and nothing I say can change that.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch
In what context do you mean by "original sin" there is many different concepts on this term; which one and how do you mean?


Wow... you don't know very much do you? it is the basic precipt of all judeo-christian religions that we are born tainted, or unholy. Mainly dealing with the fall into sin oin the Garden of Eden by Adam and eve

The term original sin is the same.. there are differant ideas of what the actaul sin was, and how it is overcome.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by plague
why do you think jesus's birth was real??


2 Corinthians
4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews
10:19
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

10:20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Hebrews
11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 09:15 PM
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Thank you all for your contributions. I'll just reply to the answers that caught my attention.



Originally posted by GameSetMatch
Q:What physical act is the Immaculate Conception alluding to?

A: It is alluding to the deception of the truth.


To clairify, my second question is asking if you believe that the concept of an Immaculate Conception refers to a specific physical act.



Originally posted by dbrandt
And to the roman catholic church the immaculate conception refers to Mary not Jesus which is another mistake.


The Roman Catholic Church is in error in believing that its doctrine of "The Immaculate Conception" refers to the birth of Mary?

Note:

The subject of this thread is not a direct reference to the Catholic doctrine of "The Immaculate Conception", and instead deals with Immaculate Conceptions in general.


Originally posted by Jehosephat
so we are comapring the vigin conception of deities, giving birth to another god, while in an attempt to discredit the conception of a mortal women with original sin giving birth as a virigin to a sinless Man-god?


I can't speak for the community, but if that question was directed at me, then the answer is no.

I simply compiled a number of religious and mythological descriptions of Immaculate Conceptions in attempt to share and at the same time learn from the varying views of other ATS members.



Originally posted by Beer_Guy
I believe organized religion made anything sexual in nature to be a sin and I also believe that they added the part about "Immaculate conception" to make that sexual act OK in the eyes of the followers.


Does the same apply to the various mythological Immaculate Conceptions?

Were they too coincidentally "made up" in order to lessen the guilt during sex?


Originally posted by skep
As to virgin births, they are possible but the offspring is always the same sex (gender) as the mother.


I wasn't aware of this, could you please provide some links or explain in more detail what you are referring to?


Finally, one of your segments (I found your post fascinating and will read every word) mentions the word sin. I may be mistaken but I think the word sin was added to the bible by the English, probably buring the KJV translation where little if any real scholarship was done as the revission was mostly plagiarized from the real scholarship of Wyecliffe and Tyndal.

Good stuff; I am really interested in - origins -.
Keep up the good work


The following Greek words are translated as "sin" in the New Testament of the KJV:

hamartanō - Strong's G264

ἁμαρτάνω - Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.

hamartēma - Strong's G265

ἁμάρτημα - From G264; a sin (properly concrete): - sin.

hamartia - Strong's G266

ἁμαρτία - From G264; sin (properly abstract): - offence, sin (-ful).

I hope that answers your question (if it was a question
), if not just U2U me.

Glad I could help, and remember to come back here if you find out anything interesting during your investigation.

~~~~~

It seems we've sidetracked from the original subject of this thread. Unless we begin to objectively look at the subject, this thread will turn into a debate with each side identifying with their viewpoint and defending it through personal insults and the like, while the real topic at hand is given no attention. It's your choice.

Anyone else have any thoughts to share?

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by Jehosephat
Wow... you don't know very much do you? it is the basic precipt of all judeo-christian religions that we are born tainted, or unholy. Mainly dealing with the fall into sin oin the Garden of Eden by Adam and eve

The term original sin is the same.. there are differant ideas of what the actaul sin was, and how it is overcome.

Jehosephat.... lol, I know what it is. What I did not know is how you where using it. I come across a lot of different meanings for the term "original sin" Some use it differently and I did not want to assume you where using it one way when you could of been using it another. My answer would be different depending on your terminology and I did not want to confuse the matter.

It wont matter now anyway. We do not bare the sins of our fathers before us or original sin of Adam and Eve. We are however under the curse.

[edit on 26-12-2005 by GameSetMatch]



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch
No, God wants us to obey him.


If Satan knew the plan, it could only be because god let him know. You get to explain why if you don't like my answer.

There can be no choice without information. What kind of sadist do you take god to be that he would compell decisions with nothing of significance to base them on?



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
And to the roman catholic church the immaculate conception refers to Mary not Jesus which is another mistake.


I'm not sure what you mean with this, but the immaculate conception refers to the supernatural conception of Jesus in Roman Catholic mythology. You may be confusing that with their teaching that Mary was born without original sin?



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
The only possible conclusion is that god wants us to be deceived. If that's the case, then odds are you are in fact deceived along with the rest of us.


It would seem that was indeed the plan:


2 Thessalonians 2:7-12
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


And the way I figure (but of course, that's just me, so only personal understanding here) is that some were deceived into believing a lie--and many others were deceived into not believing the truth because it was confused with the lie that was believed.

I'm not speaking of the virgin birth, specifically--but of religion in general.

My thoughts on this topic I'll post when I get done reading what's already been posted.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by skep
As to virgin births, they are possible but the offspring is always the same sex (gender) as the mother.

That's very interesting, skep. Is it (and I'm guessing) because of the XY chromosome thing? What was the source of your understanding on this?


I may be mistaken but I think the word sin was added to the bible by the English, probably buring the KJV translation where little if any real scholarship was done as the revission was mostly plagiarized from the real scholarship of Wyecliffe and Tyndal.

Doesn't sound unrealistic to me, at all. Sin was the moon god in Mesopotamia, and the moon is historically believed to be involved with material composition and with gestation and births. I think 'sin' might be closer to 'skin' as it relates to 'original sin,' 'being born in sin,' and even 'the wages of sin are death.'



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by GameSetMatch

Originally posted by spamandham
The only possible conclusion is that god wants us to be deceived. If that's the case, then odds are you are in fact deceived along with the rest of us.

No, God wants us to obey him. We choose to be deceived when we transgress from Gods law that is our choice. If you think that I have became deceived that is your choice and nothing I say can change that.


What about what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2?



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 02:56 AM
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The Hebrew word(s):



are translated as 'sin' in the OT and mean all these things:

  • an offence: sin
  • its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation: sin offering, punishment of sin, purification for sin
  • an offender: sinner


There are only three verses in the whole KJV that include both 'sin' and 'born':


And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
John 9:2

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
John 9:34

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:9


Considering the meaning of 'virgin' in both the Hebrew and Greek:

In the OT,

is 'virgin' and it is:

Feminine passive participle of an unused root meaning to separate; a virgin (from her privacy); sometimes (by continuation) a bride; also (figuratively) a city or state.


Matthew 1:20-25
And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying,
`Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten is of the Holy Spirit, and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.'
And all this hath come to pass, that it may be fulfilled that was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying,
`Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,'
which is, being interpreted
`With us he is God.'
And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, and did not know her till she brought forth her son--the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.


Now, in the reference back to the OT prophecy:


Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


the 'virgin' mentioned is not the same one I posted above. It is another word:


which means:

a lass (as veiled or private): - damsel, maid.

And although they might seem, at first glance, to be basically the same thing, they are not. The Hebrew words are not similar in their composition, and the meanings differ in that the first one is rooted in the idea of 'separation' and the second one in 'hidden from sight.'

In the NT, the Greek word parthenos is translated 'virgin.' It is:

Of unknown origin; a maiden; by implication an unmarried daughter.

By implication, unmarried is 'virgin.' But is that really what we are to understand?

Even the OT prophecy mentioned uses a word more accurately defined as 'maiden'--and 'virgin' in the NT is more like 'maiden.'

In the passages about Joseph and Mary, it can only be understood, when going solely by the available texts and accurate exegesis, that Mary was an unmarried maiden, betrothed to Joseph, and they did not have 'marital relations' until after Jesus was born. In those days, though, for the Jewish people, 'betrothed' was so near the idea of being 'married' that to break a betrothal was basically to get a divorce. And we read that Joseph had this idea, although to do it quietly so as not to ruin Mary's life--by being labeled an 'adulteress.' It doesn't say that Joseph felt she had been an adulteress, but any 'maiden', once betrothed, then divorced before the wedding, who was with child, was going to automatically be assumed to have committed adultery. Just for the simple fact of being divorced. The only 'right' reason for divorce was adultery. But if he had divorced her, he would have had to say it was adultery, or else he, himself, would have been charged before the Sanhedrin in violation of the law given by Moses. At any rate, to do something like that 'quietly' in those days seems impossible.

It almost seems as if Joseph was totally befuddled and didn't know what to think. But about what?

The word translated 'bride' is numphē:

From a primary but obsolete verb nuptō (to veil as a bride; compare the Latin “nupto”, to marry); a young married woman (as veiled), including a betrothed girl; by implication, a son's wife: - bride, daughter in law.

It seems odd, maybe, that it wasn't the word applied to Mary in relation to Joseph.

I know that probably all seems like a bunch of muck, and not pertinent to the thread, but the reason I posted it all is this: is the idea of 'virgin' birth, according to how we perceive it in modern times (as in not ever having sexual relations yet becoming pregnant), really the same thing which was meant 2000 years ago? And before, in the case of these other handed-down stories of virgin births?

Maybe there is a spin on the idea which has evolved through the evolution of our linguistics, making the idea misunderstood?

Then, in just comparing concepts only given in the bible, Revelation comes along and throws another wrench in:


Revelation 14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


According to definition, it reads:

...which were not 'soiled' with 'wives;' for they are 'unmarried maidens.'



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