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Originally posted by defcon5
There is no reason to send this down to BTS despite
FlyerFans kicking and screaming to do so.
Originally posted by Mizar
Next time you go to church how much do you really understand? Ask a catholic in after mass one day to expalin the Nciene Creed part for part. I almost can garuentee you they cant. As a catholic I can attest that there is a major lacking of basic church fundementals in the knowldge of the congeration.
Originally posted by defcon5
Funny anytime anyone brings up anything about the Catholic Church and any conspiracies therein, you’re there to send it down or get it sent down, you have done it to too many threads I have been interested in for it to be a coincidence.
Originally posted by Mizar
Ask a catholic in after mass one day to expalin the Nciene
Creed part for part. I almost can garuentee you they cant.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
If you wish to discuss a possible Mary/Child worship with a
possible Isis/Horus worship connection, then THAT could be a
conspiracy.
What was posted as a book that every 'smart Catholic' should read
was nothing more than fundamentalist anti-Catholic propaganda.
It belongs in theological discussion - not conspiracy.
www.biblebelievers.com...
The Two Babylons
Alexander Hislop
Chapter II
Section II
The Mother and Child, and the Original of the Child
The Babylonians, in their popular religion, supremely worshipped a Goddess Mother and a Son, who was represented in pictures and in images as an infant or child in his mother's arms. From Babylon, this worship of the Mother and the Child spread to the ends of the earth. In Egypt, the Mother and the Child were worshipped under the names of Isis and Osiris. * In India, even to this day, as Isi and Iswara; ** in Asia, as Cybele and Deoius; in Pagan Rome, as Fortuna and Jupiter-puer, or Jupiter, the boy; in Greece, as Ceres, the Great Mother, with the babe at her breast, or as Irene, the goddess of Peace, with the boy Plutus in her arms; and even in Thibet, in China, and Japan, the Jesuit missionaries were astronished to find the counterpart of Madonna *** and her child as devoutly worshipped as in Papal Rome itself; Shing Moo, the Holy Mother in China, being represented with a child in her arms, and a glory around her, exactly as if a Roman Catholic artist had been employed to set her up. ****
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent II, Fourth Lateran Council)
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VII, the Bull Unam Sanctam)
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)
Originally posted by defcon5
Please tell me again how you do not go on the attack against every Protestant that starts any thread on the topic of the RCC?
You obviously never even looked at the above link before you made the decision to call in a mod to have this thread sent to BTS.
You just proved that you have an agenda
I am a Lutheran and a believer in Historicism
You seem to have an agenda that is Anti-Protestant
Originally posted by defcon5
I certainly have not see any Protestant religion teach that
no member of any competing Christian faith is allowed salvation,
have you?
Yet, we are the bigoted haters?
Nice group though really…
Originally posted by FlyersFan\
Good! You'll LOVE this history on Martin Luther and the bible. Since
YOU brought him up earlier and stated many untruths about him.
You erroneously stated that he wrote the first bible in German.
This is wrong. The German Vulgate had been around for many years
prior to Martin Luther and was accessble.
The Pre-Lutheran German Bible
According to the latest investigations, fourteen printed editions of the whole Bible in the Middle High German dialect, and three in the Low German, have been identified. Panzer already knew fourteen; see his Gesch. der nürnbergischen Ausgaben der Bibel, Nürnberg, 1778, p. 74.
The Vulgate
aided by the gross carelessness of scribes, made confusion worse confounded. Augustine complains of this "Latinorum interpretum infinita varietas."
2. Heresy. In addition to the inconvenience in preaching and the liturgical variations, a greater demand for an authoritative version arose from the continual watch of the early church against heretics. Confusion of text abetted heresy, and the absence of a standard text made it harder to refute it. Besides, the Jews, with one authoritative text, laughed at the confusion of the Christian Scriptures.
Jerome Emser
Emser was a vigorous controversialist But he was hardly a great scholar; the errors he detected in Luther's New Testament were for the most part legitimate variations from the Vulgate, and his own version is merely Luther's adapted to Vulgate requirements.
The German Rendering
The German language was divided into as many dialects as tribes and states, and none served as a bond of literary union. Saxons and Bavarians, Hanoverians and Swabians, could scarcely understand each other. Each author wrote in the dialect of his district, Zwingli (Note: One of your above named critics) in his Schwyzerdütsch. "I have so far read no book or letter," says Luther in the preface to his version of the Pentateuch (1523), in which the German language is properly handled. Nobody seems to care sufficiently for it; and every preacher thinks he has a right to change it at pleasure, and to invent new terms." Scholars preferred to write in Latin, and when they attempted to use the mother tongue, as Reuchlin and Melanchthon did occasionally, they fell far below in ease and beauty of expression.
Luther brought harmony out of this confusion, and made the modern High German the common book language. He chose as the basis the Saxon dialect, which was used at the Saxon court and in diplomatic intercourse between the emperor and the estates, but was bureaucratic, stiff, heavy, involved, dragging, and unwieldy. He popularized and adapted it to theology and religion. He enriched it with the vocabulary of the German mystics, chroniclers, and poets. He gave it wings, and made it intelligible to the common people of all parts of Germany.
Martin Luther
His contributions to Western civilization went beyond the life of the Christian Church. His translations of the Bible helped to develop a standard version of the German language and added several principles to the art of translation.
A Critical Estimate of Luther's Version
Luther's version of the Bible is a wonderful monument of genius, learning, and piety, and may be regarded in a secondary sense as inspired. It was, from beginning to end, a labor of love and enthusiasm. While publishers and printers made fortunes, Luther never received or asked a copper for this greatest work of his life.
A German translation from the original languages was a work of colossal magnitude if we consider the absence of good grammars, dictionaries, and concordances, the crude state of Greek and Hebrew scholarship, and of the German language, in the sixteenth century. He felt especially how difficult it was to make Job and the Hebrew prophets speak in barbarous German.
As regards the text, it was in an unsettled condition. The science of textual criticism was not yet born, and the materials for it were not yet collected from the manuscripts, ancient versions, and patristic quotations. Luther had to use the first printed editions. He had no access to manuscripts, the most important of which were not even discovered or made available before the middle of the nineteenth century. Biblical geography and archaeology were in their infancy, and many names and phrases could not be understood at the time.
In view of these difficulties we need not be surprised at the large number of mistakes, inaccuracies, and inconsistencies in Luther's version. They are most numerous in Job and the Prophets, who present, even to the advanced Hebrew scholars of our day, many unsolved problems of text and rendering. The English Version of 1611 had the great advantage of the labors of three generations of translators and revisers, and is therefore more accurate, and yet equally idiomatic.
Originally posted by FlyersFan\
Jerome Emser, Doctor of Leipsic, made a critical examination of Luther’s
translation when it first appeared and detected more than a thousand
errors and faults. Dr. Emser made corrected faithful version, and had it
published. Martin Bucer, a fellow ‘reformer’, says that “Luther’s
translation ‘failures in translating and explaining the scriptures were
manifest and not a few.” (Bucer, Dial, contra Melanchthon) Zwingli,
another leading ‘reformer’, pronounced Luthers translations as “a
corruption of the Word of God”. (Amicable Discussion, Trevern, 1, 129
-Note). Hallam in Historical Literature, I, pg 201 says of Luthers
translation - “… It is viewed as faulty and insufficient in many respects
… many Lutherans consistories called for its entire revision.”
Just a few example of Luther’s butchering of the Word of God in order to
make the bible better fit his new religion (quoted from ‘The Facts about
Luther’ – ISBN 0-89555-322-8 – author Patrick O’Hare)
Jerome Emser Jerome (or Hieronymus) Emser (March 20, 1477 - November 8, 1527), antagonist of Luther, was born of a good family at Ulm.
He studied Greek at Tübingen and jurisprudence at Basel, and after acting for three years as chaplain and secretary to Raymond Peraudi, cardinal of Gurk, he began lecturing on classics in 1504 at Erfurt, where Luther may have been among his audience. In the same year he became secretary to Duke George of Albertine Saxony, who, unlike his cousin Frederick the Wise, the elector of Ernestine Saxony, remained the stanchest defender of Roman Catholicism among the princes of northern Germany.
Emser was a vigorous controversialist, and next to Eck the most eminent of the German divines who stood by the old church. But he was hardly a great scholar; the errors he detected in Luther's New Testament were for the most part legitimate variations from the Vulgate, and his own version is merely Luther's adapted to Vulgate requirements.
What follows is the first part of an historical overview of key Roman Catholic authors and their approach to Luther.
The Roman Catholic Perspective of Martin Luther (Part One)
By James Swan, July 2003
I. Introduction
II. Johannes Cochlaeus
III. Heinrich Denifle
IV. Hartmann Grisar
V. Catholic Encyclopedia
VI. Patrick O'Hare: The Facts About Luther
VII. Other Catholic Anti-Luther Writers
VIII. Conclusion
Endnotes
VIII. Conclusion
By James Swan, July 2003
In order to prove the guilt of a person, a prosecutor may attempt to sway the jury by presenting a character examination of the alleged perpetrator. In some instances, this may simply be the prosecutor doing his job well (by giving a correct look into the defendant’s character). It may also be an example of the prosecutor taking his jury into something like a mirrored room in a carnival funhouse, where images are distorted by the makeup of the glass. The later is true of the above Roman Catholic evaluations of Luther.
Sadly, the influence of Cochlaeus, Denifle, Grisar, O’Hare, and Ganss still can be felt. Their popular vilifying caricatures of Luther are gaining new life with the rise of the World Wide Web. Perhaps zeal towards their church drives Catholics to use emotionally charged approaches to Luther. My suspicion is that ad hominem arguments are easier to understand and put forth, provoke intense discussions, and convince those not willing to dig deeply into the real theology of Luther. It’s much easier to use a rhetorical argument that appeals to emotion than it is to engage in a study of what Luther actually said, in his own context.
Amidst the hostility put forth by Patrick O’Hare in his Facts About Luther, he actually said something quite profound:
“Catholics naturally feel indignant at the vilification, abuse and misrepresentation to which their ancient and world-wide religion is constantly subjected, but they are charitable and lenient in their judgement toward all who wage war against them. They are considerate with their opponents and persecutors because they realize that these are victims of a long-standing and inherited prejudice, intensified by a lack of knowledge of what the Catholic Church really upholds and teaches.” [117]
These words equally apply to Catholics steeped in a tradition that vilifies Luther. O’Hare missed that he was also an “abuser” and “misrepresenter.” Nor was he “charitable and lenient” toward Luther. He does though point out an important “fact”: people do feel indignant when their beliefs are vilified, abused, and misrepresented. The Catholic authors cited above indeed are guilty of gross misrepresentation. Worse still, their work and ad hominem arguments still have impact today.
It is my hope that Protestants will realize that many of the hostile arguments against Luther have been around for hundreds of years. Many of these anti-Luther arguments will be very familiar to any who have engaged Catholics in discussions about Luther.
There truly is “nothing new under the sun.”
Huldrych Zwingli
Huldrych (or Ulrich) Zwingli (January 1, 1484 – October 11, 1531) was the leader of the Swiss Reformation, and founder of the Swiss Reformed Churches. Independent from Luther, who was doctor biblicus, Zwingli arrived at similar conclusions, by studying the Scriptures from the point of view of a humanist scholar.
Zwingli's renunciation of the Catholic priesthood came only a few years after that of Luther's, Zwingli may have been over-shadowed by Luther's and Calvin's contributions to the Reformation.
Another reason for Zwingli's less noticeable career may have been caused by his own theological differences with respect to that of Luther's.
Martin Bucer
Martin Bucer (or Butzer, Latin Martinus Buccer) (1491–1551) was a German Protestant reformer.
He was born in 1491 at Schlettstadt in Alsace (today Sélestat, in France). In 1506 he entered the Dominican order, and was sent to study at Heidelberg. There he became acquainted with the works of Erasmus and Luther, and was present at a disputation of the latter with some of the Romanist doctors. He became a convert to the reformed opinions, abandoned his order by papal dispensation in 1521, and soon afterwards married a nun, Elisabeth Silbereisen.
On the question of the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, Bucer's opinions were decidedly Zwinglian, but he was anxious to maintain church unity with the Lutheran party, and constantly endeavoured, especially after Zwingli's death, to formulate a statement of belief that would unite Lutheran, south German and Swiss reformers
Tyndale
The Church also objected to Wycliffe and Tyndale's translations because they included notes and commentaries promoting antagonism to the Catholic Church and heretical doctrines, particularly, in Tyndale's case, Lutheranism.
The final revision of the Tyndale translations was published in 1534, and that becomes the notable year of his life. In two years he was put to death by strangling in the Netherlands for the unrelated charges of teaching Lutheranism, and his body was burned
There appeared what is known as the Great Bible in 1539. It was made by Myles Coverdale, and much influenced by Tyndale. The Great Bible was issued to meet a decree that each church should make available in some convenient place the largest possible copy of the whole Bible, where all the parishioners could have access to it and read it at their will
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Luther's Translation of the Bible
Cochlaeus, the champion of Romanism, paid the translation the greatest compliment when he complained that "Luther's New Testament was so much multiplied and spread by printers that even tailors and shoemakers, yea, even women and ignorant persons who had accepted this new Lutheran gospel, and could read a little German, studied it with the greatest avidity as the fountain of all truth. Some committed it to memory, and carried it about in their bosom. In a few months such people deemed themselves so learned that they were not ashamed to dispute about faith and the gospel not only with Catholic laymen, but even with priests and monks and doctors of divinity."
The Romanists were forced in self-defense to issue rival translations. Such were made by Emser (1527), Dietenberger (1534), and Eck (1537), and accompanied with annotations.
Luther's Translation of the Bible
The richest fruit of Luther's leisure in the Wartburg, and the most important and useful work of his whole life, is the translation of the New Testament, by which he brought the teaching and example of Christ and the Apostles to the mind and heart of the Germans in life-like reproduction. It was a republication of the gospel. He made the Bible the people's book in church, school, and house. If he had done nothing else, he would be one of the greatest benefactors of the German-speaking race.
His version was followed by Protestant versions in other languages, especially the French, Dutch, and English. The Bible ceased to be a foreign book in a foreign tongue, and became naturalized, and hence far more clear and dear to the common people. Hereafter the Reformation depended no longer on the works of the Reformers, but on the book of God, which everybody could read for himself as his daily guide in spiritual life. This inestimable blessing of an open Bible for all, without the permission or intervention of pope and priest, marks an immense advance in church history, and can never be lost.
Luther was not the first, but by far the greatest translator of the German Bible, and is as inseparably connected with it as Jerome is with the Latin Vulgate. He threw the older translation into the shade and out of use, and has not been surpassed or even equaled by a successor. There are more accurate versions for scholars (as those of De Wette and Weizsäcker), but none that can rival Luther's for popular authority and use.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Don't get out much, do you? I lived in Alabama for 10 years. The deep
south is full of exactly what you profess the protestants don't have.
Tuesday night it was the Church of Christ
On Thursday we got the Baptists.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Yep. There are PLENTY in the Protestant groups that are.
Jack Chick gets a whole bunch of orders for his junk-tracts.
It's what keeps him going. Where do you think it comes from?
Not from the Catholics!
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Right back atchya'. The truth is ... just about every religion says that
they are 'THE' religion and 'THE' truth. That's how they keep people in
their church. Even the Amish do the same.
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
Q. A non-Lutheran Christian friend of mine recently stated that he believes that Catholics are not saved and should not be considered Christians. What is the Synod's belief regarding the salvation of Catholics who adhere to Roman dogma?
Of course, personal salvation is not merely a matter of external membership in or association with any church organization or denomination (including the LCMS), but comes through faith in Jesus Christ alone. All those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior are recognized as "Christians" by the Synod—only God can look into a person's heart and see whether that person really believes. It is possible to have true and sincere faith in Jesus Christ even while having wrong or incomplete beliefs about other doctrinal issues…
The great danger is that believing things contrary to God's Word can obscure and perhaps even completely destroy belief in Jesus Christ as one's Savior. We pray that this will not happen to those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior and yet belong to heterodox church bodies, including fellow Christians in the Roman Catholic Church.
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent II, Fourth Lateran Council)
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VII, the Bull Unam Sanctam)
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)
Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Defcon and Nakash, you remind me of the virulent Catholic and Protestant lunatics in Northern Ireland, or the some of the Shi'a and Sunni thugs in the Middle East whose theme seems to be "I love God more than you do, and to prive it I will kill you."
I don't know what faith you profess, but you seem to pretend to be followers of Jesus Christ, and neither of you are acting in a Christian way.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
Q. A non-Lutheran Christian friend of mine recently stated that he believes that Catholics are not saved and should not be considered Christians. What is the Synod's belief regarding the salvation of Catholics who adhere to Roman dogma?
Of course, personal salvation is not merely a matter of external membership in or association with any church organization or denomination (including the LCMS), but comes through faith in Jesus Christ alone. All those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior are recognized as "Christians" by the Synod—only God can look into a person's heart and see whether that person really believes. It is possible to have true and sincere faith in Jesus Christ even while having wrong or incomplete beliefs about other doctrinal issues…
The great danger is that believing things contrary to God's Word can obscure and perhaps even completely destroy belief in Jesus Christ as one's Savior. We pray that this will not happen to those who confess Jesus Christ as Savior and yet belong to heterodox church bodies, including fellow Christians in the Roman Catholic Church.
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod
Q. As a Methodist living in a new town, I have found a local LCMS church where I feel comfortable and fed. Seeking information, I have looked over your pages on the net and have developed some questions. The connection between the antichrist and pope are unclear to me. Do you believe the pope is the only enemy?
. The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist. The historic view of LCMS on the Antichrist is summarized as follows by the Synod's Theological Commission:
The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ's Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.
However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic "Anti-Christ" (Dan. 7:8,11,20-21,24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18). . .
Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions' identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person's heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.