Most Logical jesus theory

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posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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ok. so i was thinking about jesus. then i realized the most logical explination. jesus was the first great escape artist and magician. he turned a couple peices of bread and some fish into a meal that could feed hundreds (trap door) then he healed the sick (they were in on it) his last and greatest magic trick took place in his "last days" first he got exicuted on a cross. he was in plain sight, he even got stabbed. then he "died" (illusion). proceeding his death he was wrapped up in a white sheet (commonly used by magicians) and locked away in a tomb for 3 days. there was "no way of escape". on the third day people attacked the gaurds of his tomb to get in (diversion for jesus to make his escape) when they opened it up! OH MY GOSH! WHERES JESUS! he appeared in the sky, all illuminated n such. sounds like a magician to me!!!


anyone else realize this before?




posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 04:46 PM
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I am sure someone realized this before...or recognized this as a possibility...or wrote a theory about it.

I guess that's what faith is. The fact that people believe Jesus was a great prophet, seer, and guider, and not some smoke and mirror trickster.

I believe that some sort of intervention had to play a part, and that it wasn't necessarily divine intervention that helped Jesus, but any man that can rally up millions of followers that do good for this world, isn't all that bad.



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 04:59 PM
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true true, jesus was good at rallying people up. and they did do some good. but think about it...... jesus was a magician....or the son of god.... one seems a little more reasonable.
i just find it hard to beleive in christianity when they talk about unity and peace, but wage wars in the name of god all the time. i guess thats just humans, god could be cool. but unless god comes down and tells you to go to war. dont go to war in his name. thats alot of death on gods hands. plus they slaughtered and converted the pegans... and that was rude.....



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by iconoclaust
i just find it hard to beleive in christianity when they talk about unity and peace, but wage wars in the name of god all the time.


Waging wars in God's name has nothing to do with Jesus being a magician.


i guess thats just humans, god could be cool.


You answered your own question, then.



plus they slaughtered and converted the pegans... and that was rude.....


Uh, who did? No one can be converted unless they want to be.



[edit on 23-12-2005 by Rouschkateer]



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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The most logical Jesus theory is that he's a mythological character in an allegorical story. If there was a historical Jesus who actually performed the various "miracles" attributed to him in the Bible, then there are some that he could have faked through sleight of hand, sure, although that immaculate conception is a pretty amazing trick for a fetus to pull off, no mater how good he is. A historical Jesus was what you could call the leader of a Mystery Cult, of which there were hundreds during the time of his supposed life. Certainly some Mystery Cults enacted ceremonies and rituals that emulated miracles, including a symbolic resurrection as they pass from lesser to greater degree.



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 10:07 PM
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I think it's pretty clear Jesus existed as a historical person. However, this doesn't mean he was the Son of God. Julius Caesar existed, but he wasn't a God either... altough he claimed he was descended from Venus. Egyptian Pharoahs existed... were they gods? Most probably not.

IMO the most likely scenario for Jesus is that he was someone who gathered followers with a powerful message. That message (whether it was his own design or actually of divine origin) became bigger than him. Eventually he became a symbol for that message, a focal point for the belief in the message. Whether the miracles he was supposed to have done actually happened or whether they are just allegories and parables within an ancient religious text, well that's up to the reader to decide for himself. Either way, I don't think it takes away from the central message. Christianity is a message about peace, love, equality. It has been twisted and used for the personal goals of men, but all religions have and that's why the separation of Church and State is so important.



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 04:44 AM
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Originally posted by iconoclaust
ok. so i was thinking about jesus. then i realized the most logical explination. jesus was the first great escape artist and magician. he turned a couple peices of bread and some fish into a meal that could feed hundreds (trap door) then he healed the sick (they were in on it) his last and greatest magic trick took place in his "last days" first he got exicuted on a cross. he was in plain sight, he even got stabbed. then he "died" (illusion). proceeding his death he was wrapped up in a white sheet (commonly used by magicians) and locked away in a tomb for 3 days. there was "no way of escape". on the third day people attacked the gaurds of his tomb to get in (diversion for jesus to make his escape) when they opened it up! OH MY GOSH! WHERES JESUS! he appeared in the sky, all illuminated n such. sounds like a magician to me!!!


anyone else realize this before?


You probably aren't the first to claim that jesus was a clever trickster.
Though I have to say, you are the first wone to compare him to a stage magician.


AlthoughI dont' agree with you If I were a mod I'd give you points just for amusing me. Too bad for you I'm not.

So instead I will point out that neither Jesus nor the gospels nor his followers at the time considered the feeding of the multitudes a miracle.
The miracle wasn't him multiplying the food(because he didn't). Rather the true miracle was the spread of hospitality as people began taking out what they had and sharing it with each other.



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 05:47 AM
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You can make the earth shake, bring destruction and death on a grand scale, move mountains, blah, means nothing. People are very picky. There is magic and then there is magic. Monkeys and their vanity.


What is in store for Isis birthday this year? It would be hard to top the last two years.



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 10:54 AM
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Here's what I've read a little about, and if anyone wants me to expound on any specific point, I will try to, with sources, but now I'll (try! to) make a summary of what I think is the most logical Jesus theory:

Firstly, Jesus is not the Son of God. Jesus, as king/ruler/pharoah, is like all others of his kind, bestowed this position by inheritence - once someone takes the title of king/pharoah/ruler, they are said to be the conduit to God, the Son of God - all pharoahs were the Sons of God, Jesus is no different, it's just Jesus' status as 'son of God' has been taken literally, purposefully, to establish Christianity as another allegorical system of control.

Jesus is of the bloodline of the Biblical patriarchs (Abraham etc) - these patriachs were the Hyksos pharoahs of Lower (North) Egypt, and their teachings are two tiered - Allegorical - the allegory is taught to the masses as fact, the allegories true meaning is known only to innitiates.

This line are privy to the true teachings of these allegories, which are, in part it seems, concerned with Solar procession - the Sun's journey through the zodiac.

The Egyptians worshipped the Bull, the star-sign Taurus, and when the Sun progressed from rising in that sign to Aries, Moses and Ahkenaton (theories of which include being the same person, or brothers) - tried to establish a new monotheism in Egypt for this new era.

Jesus as the sacrifical lamb (Aries) of God is a figure of rebirth to signify the end of the age of Aries and the beginning of the age of Pisces - thus Christianity uses the symbol of a fish.

Jesus' lifestory as told in the Bible can be read as a solar allegory - link

This bloodline continues today - and this theory is related very well in The Holy Blood & The Holy Grail, which I'm currently plowing through myself at the moment. Most people will be aware that this book was an inspiration for the Da Vinci Code, which I have not read, as what I know of it, seems like a large red-herring. Allegorical paintings and such is all neither here nor there. Yes, they may be hinting at some arcane knowledge and supression of the information that Jesus had off-spring, and this line has continued, but that's only the story of the last 2000 years, going back BEFORE Jesus' lifetime completes the story, as it expounds on this bloodline as I've stated above.

When the sun ends it's rising in Pisces and begins it's rising in the Age of Aquarius (the beginning of which varies widely - from the next 10 years to 600 years time) - when this change takes place, I would fully expect a similar attempt by some persons at the destruction of the old allegories (the Abrahamic religions), and to introduce another allegory which signifies water, or the sign of Aquarius in some way. Maybe that's why something like the Da Vinci Code has been so embraced at this moment, with a big budget Hollywood movie coming out next year, this idea of Jesus' bloodline surviving will only cement itself further in popular culture.

The purpose of an allegory is to allow the transition of information to the initiated - so it makes no difference what the allegory is - whether it's Jesus, Osiris, Adonis, Mithras, or any of the plethora of birth-death-rebirth deities - as long as the allegory is successfully decoded by initiates, it serves them and their secrecy by allowing the general population, or followers of the religion to take the allegory as literal truth (because, knowledge is power).

The story of Jesus is not unique, Christianity cannot account for this, and the only defence it has given is that the Devil created these prior deities in order to discredit Christ. I find this immensely ridiculous (as in: worthy of ridicule). As far as the New Testament goes, I won't dispute that there is a lot of positive, humanitarian teachings contained within it's allegorical dogma, but that's no excuse to put up with shoddy mis-matched perversions of actual history intertwined with older myths, tales and symbology - one can find positive teachings in a plethora of other places and belief systems, I have nothing against Christianity or the idea of a divine figure specifically, I just find this purposeful use of lies and hidden knowledge abhorrent - people should have the ultimate right to chose what they believe in and take responsibility for their own actions and thoughts, so if people want to follow Christianity, it is no concern of mine - I just feel that ALL the Truth and Information about a particular belief system should be available to ALL, not just the initiated.

[edit on 24-12-2005 by VelvetSplash]



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 01:29 PM
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Jesus(pbuh) is not the son of god.He was a messenger from god



posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 01:38 PM
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The ATS Skunk Works Forum is a unique place for conspiracy related conjecture, sans judgment or debunking.

Mod Edit: Skunk Works Forum Guidelines – Please Review This Link.

So let's stay within the speculative realm here, and support and nurture a threads potential.

Thanks.



posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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Nice post, Velvet Splash. I suppose one could argue that as the sign of Aquarius relates heavily to the Greek myth of Zeus' cup-bearer Ganymede, that the grail, bloodline issues/controversy could be said to already be referring to the shift from Pisces to Aquarius.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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very intresting so far, to keep it short people must remeber the 30 years of jesus life often ignored. The key is that he was a carpenter. A master builder. This was before the establishment of the masonic order. In his 30 years rarely mentioned jesus travelled to africa, indian, egypt where he studied in the mysterie schools. He i would imagine he learned things such as medicine, healing, math, spirituality,etc. The title of Christ basically means and enlightened person. Its a title , same as Buddha, a person of conciousness..

With this knowledge and skill jesus could have done anything especially around the untrain eye or mind. I myself will not take anything away from jesus but Im just saying he had skills and knowledge the average person today isnt even aware exist becuase it was lost and/or destroyed

There are records of jesus in all these places with records such as statues, artwork,text etc

Myself I do beleave jesus was a son of god, the same as every man on earth



posted on Jan, 3 2006 @ 10:35 AM
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First off it would be called true Magic and the question should be did the people create Jesus or did Jesus create himself as far as being the son of God? Next do we as a people need Jesus is a midmarker for a more belief in God? Is it better not to believe in him or believe in him? As if you don't and require proof this would be the end of the world. The Antichrist before christ is an uncovering of God and the powers that be. in fact my message would be sin and warning correct? A contradiction like antichrist before christ and false prophet before real prophet but the next question would be why the contradiction? Maybe the contradiction is what we call babel and just part of God's plan? Or maybe I am ful of...


Originally posted by iconoclaust
ok. so i was thinking about jesus. then i realized the most logical explination. jesus was the first great escape artist and magician. he turned a couple peices of bread and some fish into a meal that could feed hundreds (trap door) then he healed the sick (they were in on it) his last and greatest magic trick took place in his "last days" first he got exicuted on a cross. he was in plain sight, he even got stabbed. then he "died" (illusion). proceeding his death he was wrapped up in a white sheet (commonly used by magicians) and locked away in a tomb for 3 days. there was "no way of escape". on the third day people attacked the gaurds of his tomb to get in (diversion for jesus to make his escape) when they opened it up! OH MY GOSH! WHERES JESUS! he appeared in the sky, all illuminated n such. sounds like a magician to me!!!


anyone else realize this before?



posted on Jan, 23 2006 @ 04:32 PM
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The Jesus as magician concept is a preexisting theory and one that makes a certain amount of logical and historical sense when one thinks about the life of a historical Jesus separate from the Jesus of Christian faith which is a personal, subjective experience.

The matter was given treatment by Professor Morton Smith in his 1978 book "Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God?" originally published by Harper & Row.
There is an exert of the text available on Amazon.com. Here are three paragraphs:


When this "critical" program was carried through, almost everything in the gospels turned out to belong to "the Christ of faith"; next to nothing was left of "the Jesus of history." This result was convenient for preachers (it minimized the historical obstacles to homiletic developments), but is indefensible as the outcome of a historical study of four ancient documents. Moreover, the fundamental antithesis, that between "the Christ of faith" as a mythological figure and "the Jesus of history" as a preacher free of mythological presuppositions, is anachronistic. Where in ancient Palestine would one find a man whose understanding of the world and of himself was not mythological?

The picture of the world common to Jesus and his Jewish Palestinian contemporaries is known to us from many surviving Jewish and Christian documents. It was wholly mythological. Above the earth were heavens inhabited by demons, angels, and gods of various sorts (the "many gods" whose existence Paul conceded in I Cor. 8.5, and among whom he counted "the god of this age," II Cor. 4.4). In the highest heaven was enthroned the supreme god, Yahweh, "God" par excellence, who long ago created the whole structure and was about to remodel, or destroy and replace it. Beneath the earth was an underworld, to which most of the dead descended. There, too, were demons. Through underworld, earth, and heavens was a constant coming and going of supernatural beings who interfered in many ways with human affairs. Sickness, especially insanity, plagues, famines, earthquakes, wars, and disasters of all sorts were commonly thought to be the work of demons. With these demons, as with evil men, particularly foreign oppressors, the peasants of Palestine lived in perpetual hostility and sporadic conflict, but the relations were complex. As the Roman government had its Jewish agents, some of whim, notably the Herods, were local rulers, so the demons had their human agents who could do miracles and deceive many. The lower gods were the rulers of this age, and men who knew how to call on them could get their help for all sorts of purposes. So could women, whose favors they had rewarded by teaching them magic and other arts of civilized life. On the other hand, Yahweh, like the demons, was often the cause of disasters, sickness, etc., sent as punishments. He sometimes used angels, sometimes demons, as agents of his anger, and his human agents, his prophets, could also harm as well as help. Most Jews believed that in the end he would destroy or remodel the present world, and create a new order in which the Jews, or at least those who had followed his law, would have a better life. However, as to the course of events and the actors in the coming catastrophe, there was wide disagreement; any number of contradictory programs circulated, with various roles for one or more "messiahs"- special representatives of Yahweh- anti-messiahs, and assorted mythological monsters.

This was the picture of the world common in first century Palestine. Even Herod Antipas, the Romans' puppet prince in Galilee, is said to have thought Jesus was John the Baptist raised from the dead. Even Josephus, a Jew of priestly aristocracy who as a young man was sent on a mission to Rome, held beliefs of this sort: he was proud of the Jews' control of demons; he claimed to have prophetic powers himself and to have prophesied that the Roman general, Vespasian, would become emperor and rule all mankind; and he saw Vespasian as a messiah foretold by at least some biblical prophecies. His own prophecy was famous; the Roman historian Suetonius and Dio Cassius reported it. Suetonius and Tacitus say that such messianic prophecies were common throughout the Near East. We should presume that almost all Palestinian Jews of Jesus' time thought themselves involved in the mythological cosmic drama. That Jesus did so is not merely a matter of presumption; it is supported by the unanimous evidence of the gospels.


Morton Smith came to fame with the discovery of a fragment of the controversial Secret Gospel of Mark.



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 04:59 AM
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Now since this forum is supposed to be based around conspiracy theories
i will state my opinon on Jesus and elaborate while tying it and religion in general to Conspiracy.....


Jesus - Sure he existed. But what you have to realize and think about is Jesus was crucified for saying he was the son of god. Now if you were in that time of day. Where religion was roughly 90% of life then sure at some point someone is going to claim to be the son of god. so they can get some fame and such.

Now before i get to into the jesus topic i should explain my theory on religion so this will all make more sense.

Religion - think about the world around the middle ages. It was run by kings and dictators right? Well before all that around the time jesus was around i assume that the world was run in a similar fashion. Dictators and/or kings.

So now we have a dictator/king ruled world. Say people get fed up with "The power" (king/dictator). Now the people are beginning to rebel and such. Now the king tries EVERYTHING to keep people in order and nothing seems to be helping the current situation. So the kind calls together his advisors and lords and what not and they brainstorm on how they are going to solve their problem. Eventually they come up with a great idea. A higher more supreme being whom has a rulebook with stories of what happens when these rules are broken. Now all they need is a book. So they get the best authors from around and begin to write this book. And in the end they have THE BIBLE.

The king somehow tells his people "we found this book" it states that we were put here by "god" and that "we should obey his rules so that we can go to a better place when we pass on" and "carrying on with the rebeling the killing and such will get us sent to this fiery pitt they call hell".

And sadly people buy it. I mean think about how it wouldve been back then. BORING. so all that you have when there is nothing is something to belive in.

So basicly in short what i am trying to say is that MY THEORY on religion is that it is a "Conspiracy" To keep a stronghold on the people of this world.
and that Jesus was just a crazy hippie lookig for fame.

Also. in the bible. mosess talks to a burning bush..... Marijuana?

lol.

Just an opinion

[edit on 26-1-2006 by spyderone]



posted on Jan, 26 2006 @ 10:28 AM
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spyderone,

Your opinion on the matter definitely has some valid reasoning behind it. The point I would like to make is that most of what you present is based on very general hypotheticals, as if the history and social structures of Judea around the time of the advent of Christianity are complete mysteries. There is no need to make a comparison to political situations of the Middle Ages as there is a great deal of material available regarding the Roman Empire and its territories in the Holy Land. If you are curious about learning about these matters in a more substantial and specific way there are many resources available to do so on ATS and elsewhere. The sample of the introduction from the Morton Smith text I provided in my last post is one place to start as it deals directly with some of the cultural and psychological conceptions and some of the political and social conditions that contributed to the development of the Christian movement. I'm not trying to knock you in any way; I found your post to be rather astute despite its lack of specifics. I just want to stress that your opinion can always be made more compelling if research and specific factual information back it.

A fine example of just how strong a line of reasoning can be when backed with concrete information can be found at twitchy's excellent thread Tryptamines and God which discusses at great length the potential relationship between religious conceptions and psychotropic drugs you suggest at the end of your post.

Cheers.

Edit- I just want to add that the origins of the writings in the Bible are researchable and far more complex than the scenario you present regarding a ruling class controlling the masses. I'm not saying that that isn't a huge aspect of religion, particularly dogmatic religions like Pauline Christianity (the Roman Catholic Church and its Protestant derivatives), but the matter is much more complicated and in no way cut and dried. The scenario you present is more in line with the adoption of Christianity by Constantine when the Holy Roman Empire was organized some 300 years after the supposed life of Christ.

[edit on 26-1-2006 by Cicada]





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