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Holiday Skirmish: MemoryShock V The Vagabond

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posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 01:48 PM
The topic for this debate is "Carollers are the scion of satan."

MemoryShock will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
The Vagabond will argue against this proposition.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by two (2) alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debater posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.

Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image may be included in each post. No more than 5 references can be included at the bottom of each post. Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references.

Responses should be made within 24 hours, with allowances for the holidays. Please don't press the time limit, as these are timely

Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of judges. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority is reached.

This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.

[edit on 12/23/2005 by Amorymeltzer]

posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 09:31 PM
My Regards to The Vagabond, as well as the judges of this debate round….

Carollors are the Scion of Satan

In today's modern world there is no obvious relationship between the devil and Christmas. It is a time of year that usually signifies the birth of Christ and the celebration of goodwill towards all men…..the religious highlights are of innocence and where families draw closer and take a bit of time out of their harried and conflicting schedules to share in the majic of the holidays....


I would like to present the obvious truth that Santa Claus is indeed, by definition, yet another incarnation of Satan himself. From

Old Nick
The Devil; Satan.

Saint Nicholas or Saint Nick
Santa Claus.

Santa Claus is the inspiration for many a carol and I now submit that he is also another alias of The Morning Star himself....What better way to infiltrate a Holiday season dedicated to the birth of Christ than to create another archetype designed to appeal to the desires of all....and what better position to be in to carry out his devious of the most devious of all is the 'Christmas Carol.'

To understand the insidious nature of what for all appearances seems to be an innocent custom for the spreading of holiday cheer, we have to take a look at the very nature of the Christmas carol. Quite simply, its' nature is to be repeated, many times within the season and for many seasons on an annual basis. The only season of the year to have it's own compilation of song, one would see nothing wrong with chorus and verse that spreads the good nature of the season...until the duplicitous nature of the carol is uncovered for what it truly is.....but first a bit of background information.....

Researcher confirms existence of 'earworms'
98% of people have had songs stuck in their head
There's nothing nicer than a tune playing in your head -- until you can't turn it off.

Earworms, are an incredible frustration at times and can turn what was once a pleasant musical experience into a horrific and torturous nightmare. And it is the result of repetition. Year in and year out we as a population are being subjected to the spawn of Diablo's incessant rehashing of songs that we have already heard a million times many different forms no less...from the off-key presentation of a community choir in the courtyard while people are Christmas shopping, to the many re-recordings by fanciful pop stars...even to horrible renditions played over the loudspeaker as people walk through department stores in the form of instrumental/elevator music..( I could almost rest my case here, as Kenny G is a huge protagonist for this particularly devious tactic, as the nature of overhead department store music is semi-subliminal in nature.....and Christmas or not, I'm sure we can all agree that Kenny G is a direct descendant of the Beast..

Repetition is the key here, and that fact is not lost on the devil, nor his minion.....but what is the problem beside a slight occasional annoyance? The effects are subtle....indeed the full effect is cumulative. By singing constantly of good joy and tidings for all, the very message is contradicted and destroyed by stress and psychological duress that is consistent with the earworm phenomenon.....

The research also indicates that people who get the most earworms tend to listen to music frequently and have neurotic habits, such as biting pencils or tapping fingers.
—Hieu Tran Phan, "'Sticky tune' hits a chord with many," The Press-Enterprise, March 4, 2003

The above link loosely connects earworms to neurotic habits. As earworms are do to 'catchy' tunes and incessant exposure, Christmas Carols can be said to be one of the underlying factors for Holiday Stress....and for anyone who has experienced a loved one at the end of her (ahem...and, um..or his...) rope, it can be stated that the pressure to create the perfect holiday atmosphere for friends and family alike to take pleasure in each other's company is completely undermined by the efforts of the affiliates/descendants of The Morning Star to infect the population with earworms every holiday the form of Christmas carols.....such an effective yet subtle plot could only be the workings of Old Nick himself, under the guise of Saint Nick and with the unfailing allegiance of his minion, who can most often be identified by their indignant and blatant caroling....

posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 10:48 PM
Let me begin by extending my thanks to Amorymeltzer, Nygdan, and the judges for making this debate possible, and my best regards to my opponent Memoryshock; he and I have intended to go at it for a while now.

A modest proposal

Carolers are the scion of Satan- this statement certainly deserves some examination.
The American Heritage Dictionary, 4th Edition, defines scion as "a descendant or heir".
WOW- the descendants and heirs apparent of Beelzebub himself?

I wonder what the Devil's estate is worth.

According to Luke Chapter 4, Verses 5 and 6, the Devil pretty much owns the world. "The Devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, ‘I will give you all of their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.’"

My opponent is therefore stuck with the modest proposal that Carolers are the rightful heirs to the entire Earth by virtue of their kinship with Satan. This proposal is obviously impossible if the Bible is reliable evidence, because the Bible is perfectly clear that it is the meek who shall inherit the Earth by virtue of their relationship with God.

On the other hand, if the Bible is not reliable evidence, then there is no evidence to support the existence of Satan, and thus no evidence that anyone can be his scion.

My opponent is naturally forced therefore to make incredibly thin connections between the bad, repetitive singing of carolers, the shameless pimping-out of Santa by Corporate America, bad interpretation of statistics on obsessive compulsive disorder, and some kind of Satanic Conspiracy- none of which actually proves that carolers are either descended from or heirs to Satan. My opponent can only hope that we will assume that simply because Christmas Carols are a bad thing that those who sing them must be the devil's children.

The voice of an (fallen) angel
Furthermore, the premise that Kenny G is a direct descendent of the Beast is clearly ridiculous. Biblically the Devil is portrayed as being quite beautiful to behold, and so presumably he and his offspring should have beautiful voices- which Kenny G does not. Or if you prefer the more popular depiction of Satan, he usually has a booming, intimidating voice, which Kenny G does not.

The best explanation for Kenny G's voice is that he is the Devil's boyfriend and has had his testes crushed during a vigorous bout of anal sex with Satan. So he is clearly not a descendant. We know the Devil would not support the religious institution of marriage and since Kenny G lives in America where gay marriage is not legal, they cannot be considered common-law spouses, so Kenny G is not an heir to Satan either. He is obviously not Satan’s scion, however many carols he might have remade.

If your torture the facts enough, they will confess
98% of those polled (not of all people) have had "ear worms"- we have no way of knowing what percent of the total population have them.
Many who have earworms also have neurotic habits.

Correlation does not imply causality; we need evidence of the nature of the relationship. It is not necessarily true that earworms cause neurotic behavior. It is just as possible that those with neurotic behavior are simply more likely to have earworms. Infact earworms could be classified as a type of neurotic behavior.

Furthermore, neurotic behavior is often the product of stress. Neurotic behaviors are a form of body language: expressions of emotion. Therefore the stress of the holidays is the causative factor and earworms are the result.

The devious plan my opponent believes he sees in action is infact nothing more than a major neurotic outburst by a bunch of white middle-class Christians, who most of us already knew were wound just a little too tight. During this season they are experiencing the highpoint of their yearly cycle of servitude to the commercial establishment and the all-mighty dollar, and that is the cause of their stress. Caroling is their outlet.

Carolers are not Satan's scion; they are his victims. They huddle together to writhe, spasm, and groan as they figuratively die from the wounds accrued during another year of economic defeat, anxiously awaiting the chance to be reborn with the new year, wherein they swear and resolve to lose weight, ask for a raise, etc.

So why does Memoryshock claim to see a satanic conspiracy being perpetrated by Christians? Because he is playing the Devil’s Advocate (pun definitely intended). He is in fact a probably a caroler, and he too is getting a little neurotic at this time of years, which in his case is causing paranoid delusions.

(Exactly 800 words by Microsoft Word, not including this statement.)

posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 04:01 AM
My colleague, The Vagabond, is most accurate when he states the definition of the word scion......

However....he is mistaken with this assumption...

Originally posted by The Vagabond
My opponent is therefore stuck with the modest proposal that Carolers are the rightful heirs to the entire Earth by virtue of their kinship with Satan.

I am not in the least stuck with such a proposal, and indeed the negation of the thesis at hand is not so easily accomplished.....we reach further into the dictionary to determine exactly what a descendant is, as it defines scion…

Definition: Descendant
2 : proceeding from an ancestor or source[my emphasis]

And while I'm at it, I may as well continue breaking down the concept and take a look at the term source...where we find the third definition as follows....

3) : one that supplies information

As we can see, there need not be an actual ancestral connection between Satan and our most certainly demented carolers. There just needs to be a flow of information...and the flow of information can or cannot be direct communication of intended action whereupon the action is hence carried out. Indeed, for the devil to remain in relative obscurity for all these ages, the transfer of information has to be intensely more subtle....such as the repetition of song through learned behaviour. Parents teach Christmas carols to their children willingly......some people request to hear Christmas carols over the radio or in person of their own volition. The act of the Christmas carol, of which is a most despicable idea, is a self perpetuating phenomenon. All that needed to occur was origin....all that was required was the initial push to get the ball rolling and the concept introduced on an annual basis until people were unwittingly accomplishing the devil's work by creating their own carols!!!

Originally posted by The Vagabond
He is obviously not Satan’s scion,[snip]

My opponent uses a very creative logical process to support the above conclusion.....however...with the clear road of definition of which I have provided, it is actually quite obvious that Kenny G is indeed Satan's scion. I further hold that there is as yet a smoking gun out there that would clearly provide a more overt connection between the else can a man wear that hair and keep a straight face....

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Therefore the stress of the holidays is the causative factor and earworms are the result.

This quote is the summation of a blatant attempt to disregard the latent ferocity of the earworm (caroling) conspiracy as nothing more than an effect. But what of his support for such a claim? The stress of the holidays? What are the holidays? Currently, they are a coinciding period of moon phases, sun positioning and subsequent day lengths with climate patterns all over the world within a fairly predictable range based on similar previous occurrences of the above combinations. What do people do during these recurring periods of time? In some parts of the world, not much changes from day to day behaviour. In other parts of the world, custom has been instituted that requires a variety of attenuation...from spiritual, personal, familial, and any combination therein. But where does the stress come from? Preconceived notions of what behaviours are expected at these times and the struggle to conform to these preconceptions. A multitude of factors may be involved in the manifestation of stress, but the carol is a vehicle for the delivery of the preconception. The repetition of the carol necessitates the repetition of the preconception...whether it be a conscious participation in the singing/performing/listening of the carol or the creation of an earworm that allows for a more subconscious reassimilation of the preconception.....and thusly, stress is created from either the voluntary participation with the carol or from subconscious manifestation of indirect, and potentially undesired, contact with the carol.
The point I was attempting to make was that the holidays are defined by the behaviour and customs of those who participate in them. The behaviours and customs are determined by past experience and logic states that these behaviours (generally) and customs (specific but not universal) had to have an origin….a source. The negative consequences are undoubtedly the work of Satan.

And the stress is not just in the neurotic behaviour and psychological duress sometimes produced by the earworms of encountered Christmas carols….consider the song ‘Silver Bells.’

City sidewalks, busy sidewalks..[snip]
Children laughing
People passing
Meeting smile after smile

There is nothing innocent about this carol….indeed, it is a blatant attempt to associate the popular expressions of happiness with commercial enterprise so as to perpetuate doubt and anxiety with regard to the presentation and reception of gifts….and the carolers are a partial delivery system for these manipulations…..

[edit on 12/24/2005 by Amorymeltzer]

posted on Dec, 24 2005 @ 09:02 PM
Is there any kind of government agency for the protection of dictionaries? Memoryshock’s dictionary clearly should be placed in foster care before it is forced to contort itself any further for his amusement.

All of the definitions which Memoryshock has provided are correct; however by a clever sleight of tongue he has altered those definitions in application.
quote: Descendant 2 : proceeding from an ancestor or source

The descendant comes from the source, not the descendant’s information. Therefore carolers themselves, not only the original idea for their activity, must come from Satan in order for them to be Satan’s scion. Indeed my opponent has conceded that many now make up their own carols, and therefore in this modern age even more so than ever before, it cannot be claimed that Carolers are Satan’s scion, no matter how neurotic they may be.
If only the inspiration or guidance comes from Satan, then the carolers are not the scion of Satan. My opponent must in fact prove that carolers entered existence by Satan’s creation. To prove this one must disregard the Bible’s testimony, and without that testimony there is no evidence for the existence of Satan at all.

This fact also applies to the caroler who has been put forward as an example, namely Kenny G. The “smoking gun” to which my opponent refers is also clearly not an act of the devil. Since when does the devil have a sense of humor? God is the one who classified all of the best things in life as sins, God is the one who invented the giraffe, God is responsible for televangelism; clearly if anyone in this universe has a sense of humor, it’s God. Therefore it seems likely that Kenny G’s ability to remain oblivious to the ridiculous appearance of his hair is clearly God’s way of putting a humorous silver lining on the black cloud of that man’s voice.

As to the stress of the Holiday Season, my opponent would have you believe that carols are the cause, but he has done nothing to challenge the readily observable cause that I have pointed out. The sinister commercial plot which my opponent previously attempted to associate with carols is clearly the source of holiday stress, and as I have stated previously, caroling is a neurotic behavior intended to relieve that stress by activity.

Carols, far from being reinforcement of learned behaviors, express a longing to depart from the preconceived notion that holidays are a time to get out your checkbook, stampede your fellow man at Walmart, and max out your credit cards on stuff that your kids will probably break the minute they unwrap.
quote: There is nothing innocent about this carol….indeed, it is a blatant attempt to associate the popular expressions of happiness with commercial enterprise so as to perpetuate doubt and anxiety with regard to the presentation and reception of gifts….and the carolers are a partial delivery system for these manipulations…..

My opponent here acknowledges that commerce is indeed the source of holiday stress. Commercialism is the learned behavior which has made Christmas the Devil’s holiday. This behavior is not learned from caroling. It is not carols which originated the idea that the day after Christmas is one of the busiest shopping days of the year. There are no carols about stampedes at Walmart. There are no carols about buying on credit. Corporate America is responsible for the stress of Christmas. Christmas Carols are a manifestation of the misery that Corporate America has wrought on these poor souls who can never get enough of the one thing that they have been taught is most important in life: material wealth.

The fixation on material wealth did not come from Christmas Carols.

Let’s see what Christmas Carols are about:
“All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth” – Needs over luxuries- if you’ve already got your two front teeth, be glad for what you’ve got.
“Away in a manger” – A carol about the very first Christmas, which was celebrated happily in poverty.

Or here’s a good one: “Tiding of Comfort and Joy”- "
"Fear not," then said the angel,
"Let nothing you affright,
This day is born a Savior,
Of virtue, power, and might;
So frequently to vanquish all
The friends of Satan quite";

As Jesus asked after casting out the unclean spirit into the swine which drowned themselves, “How can Satan cast out Satan?”

Christmas Carols are the equivalent of covering your eyes so you won’t see something that scares you. They are a neurotic outburst on the part of Satan’s victims. They are an act of denial and the last refuge of vanquished souls which have sold themselves for too little and often not even received that.

Exhibit A: Holy Water and Garlic do not harm this caroler.

posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 07:40 PM


My colleague The Vagabond seems to think that I am twisting definitions……which couldn’t be further from the truth. Words are used to define words. The advent of our current technology with regards to the speed of communication along with the faults readily apparent in our educational system tend to give many people an assumed knowledge of what words mean. I have merely defined the words that define the terms that are presented in the thesis to provide easier access to the connections….

Originally posted by The Vagabond
The descendant comes from the source, not the descendant’s information.

Precisely. But the information is the important part in some cases. Without the transmission of information there would be no direct connection for a descendant……I offer an example…..

John Becomes a Dharma Heir
After the seven day intensive Chan retreat in New York in May 1993 Master Sheng-yen held a brief ceremony in which he transmitted the Dharma to John Crook making him a holder of the lineage in the Chinese Linji sect of Chan Buddhism with the name Ch'uan-Teng Chien-Ti, meaning "Transmitting the Lamp Seeing the Truth".


“John Crook has studied with me in Chan retreat some five times in New York and twice in Britain but prior to that he studied and cultivated his understanding in many traditions for over twenty years. Today I am giving him recognition as my Dharma descendant.”
translated from Mandarin

Sheng-Yen is a Chan Buddhist Master. John Crook has no genetic connection with Sheng-Yen. Yet by the prerogative of the Master, the student has become a Dharma descendent. John Crook now carries the lineage of that which his only connection is the teachings of his Master……a descendant defined as such as a result of the information he now possesses.

There is our precedent. A teaching lineage. Descendancy based on the propagation of information. And it is exactly this kind of connection that binds Satan to the corrupt, latent or not, nature of carolers….past and present…..

Originally posted by The Vagabond
As to the stress of the Holiday Season, my opponent would have you believe that carols are the cause, but he has done nothing to challenge the readily observable cause that I have pointed out. [snip], caroling is a neurotic behavior intended to relieve that stress by activity.

Caroling has been around long before the current incarnation of the commercial emphasis placed on our holiday season. Much longer. Indeed, they arose mainly to recognize the religious background of the season…..but a trend began to occur as early as the mid 7th century……carols were banned!!

No amount of clerical complaining seemed able to stop the people from adding new carols and variants to the ever increasing body of song.

This “Borrowing from secular source in order to ‘intoxicate the ear…,’” is an early reference to not only earworms, but implies heavily the evil intent of subsequent and unapproved caroling. As direct opposition came from the Roman Catholic Church itself through more than one Council in the 13th, 15th, and 16th centuries, the protagonist could be none other than the combined forces of Master Satan and his Scion!!!!! The church is an established ‘good,’ thusly any decree established to discourage any activity/behaviour/concept is, by definition, decreed as such against the will of Satan……

My colleague has presented, in the above quote, that caroling is actually neurotic behaviour stemming from holiday stress as a result of the commercial enterprise….we see that this is obviously not the case. Caroling arose long before corporations and was initially an application for peace and hymn. But the sinister, nay masterful, plan of Diablo encouraged a moral conflict that has since defined carols as a source of stress. The wanton ways of carolers imposed their blasphemous song upon the ears of those striving for righteous conformance to the will of the Church. The inability to escape the carols undoubtedly caused a personal battle within the unwilling audiences as earworms performed their duty in causing the memory of the carol to be recalled and mentally repeated in periods lacking direct be reheard even in periods of isolation. I can imagine the poor souls who were within their alone time, attempting to pray to their Lord….only to be mercilessly hounded by the earworms passed on by the machination of carolers……

Initially posted by The Vagabond
My opponent here acknowledges that commerce is indeed the source of holiday stress.

I acknowledged no such thing. I hold that commercial participation is subliminally instigated by carols, especially in the “Silver Bells” example. Commerce can lead to stress, yet it is clearly the carol that leads to commerce in many cases.

With regards to Exhibit A….I see no support for the claim that the subject is indeed a caroler.

posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 01:48 AM
There are several ways to define a word. Paraphrasing with other words is one way. This is what the dictionary does. The dictionary definitions that Memoryshock provided were correct.

Context is another way. My opponent has abused the context of the word source in an attempt to sell you the ludicrous notion that one who receives information becomes a descendant of the one who informed him. That is the crucial point in the definition quarrel.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
The descendant comes from the source, not the descendant’s information.


Memoryshock is forced to acknowledge my rebuttal of his argument.

But the information is the important part in some cases.
Without the transmission of information there would be no direct connection for a descendant.

But he needs you to ignore the fact that even he has acknowledged as "precise", because without it, his position is clearly incorrect.

My opponent hopes that even in spite of acknowledging the correct definition that he can equivocate if he can sell you a on a very cursory look at the idea of dharma lineage.

However, on examination we find that the concept demonstrates the impossibility of proving carolers to be Satan's scion.

Dharma transmission is the act of passing the Zen or Chan Buddhist doctrine from a master to student. This one-to-one transmission is said to be traced over 2,500 years back to Gautama Buddha.

Buddhism maintain records of their historical teachers who have passed the Dharma from generation to generation in an unbroken line (snip)which provides validation of the Chan/Zen experience of the teachers of the present generation.

emphasis added.

The Dharma is not just information. It is a legacy: a position as a master and a teacher which is passed from master to student. A lineage is established, but it is done in a way that is not comparable to the ridiculous passing of information from Satan to carolers which my opponent has asserted but not done anything at all to prove.

Sheng-Yen has passed the Dharma on to John Crook, and he has made John Crook next in the lineage by public announcement, similar to a will.

So you can see that John Crook is Shang-Yen's scion because he has been designated as the recipient of a legacy; he has been made an heir.

Carolers have not been designated as recipients of anything from Satan, except in the dark recesses of my opponent's imagination.

My opponent has attempted to renege on his admission that commercialism is the Devil's foothold on Christmas, but he has failed.

Commerce can lead to stress, yet it is clearly the carol that leads to commerce in many cases.

My assertion that commercialism is the root of holiday stress remains unrefuted. My opponent claims that carols lead to commercialism, but doesn't deny commercialism as Satan's ultimate instrument. So what came first, commercialism, or the commercial carol?

Not all carols are equal afterall. "Silver Bells" was composed in the mid 20th century by Jay Livingston and was first recorded in 1951

Before the commerce carol there used to be something called a Christmas carol. The commerce carol evolved from the Christmas carol as a stress reaction..

Caroling arose long before corporations and was initially an application for peace and hymn.

Here my opponent affirms what I have just said, and on this we agree (although my opponent will probably change his mind again). Caroling started out as a form of hymn. It was banned by the one of the greatest bastions of evil and hypocrisy the world has ever known because it was good, and the church wanted a monopoly on good (the bible was only allowed in Latin at the time that carols were banned). Caroling then became a stress relief tool for Satan's victims. (As to Latin only services)

Carolers are not Satan's scion- they are his victims.

From the very link that Memoryshock used ( ) we learn that St. Francis was among the first carolers.

Wait- Holy Mother Church tried to stop caroling, but canonized a Caroler?
Memoryshock's position is quite self-contradictory, first in the equivocation on definitions, now on religious matters. Such is life when you make yourself an ally of the Catholic Church.

The church is an established ‘good,’

Sure it is. Just ask the Jews, the Blacks, Astronomers, and an ever-increasing number of raped children, among others. The Catholic Church NEVER makes mistakes.

My opponent has put up a spirited defense, taking us over a great many issues. We've had to talk about the catholic church, we've talked about Silver Bells, we've talked about Dharma Lineage, but do you know what we haven't discussed very much so far? We haven't discussed any proof what-so-ever that carolers have received anything at all from Satan to make them scion.

posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 09:43 PM
What Kind of Silent Night Do You Want?

Carolers are the scion of Satan. This is a fact that is apparent to some…..but not so to many others. Why is that? Well the statement itself is not a generally held notion. In fact, carolers are largely viewed as innocent singers of hymn and holiday revelry, while Satan is widely considered to be symbolic of the deepest of evil. There is no obvious connection between the two if you only consider the base generality……..and that is exactly what my colleague, The Vagabond, is asking of you. His imploration is that you do not make an effort to look at the facts as they exist, rather that you simplify your analysis to the general connotation of the topical statement…..but I have come to realize that caroling is indeed not such an innocent custom, rather it is part of an evil plot designed to perpetuate stress and create intense discomfort in the population….through the persistence of earworms.

The usual connotation of a carol is not of pain and discomfort, but of joy and interaction. But carols, especially the more popular ones, are catchy and repeated often. The exact criteria needed for an earworm to thrive. And as we realize that carols are in actuality a mode of transmission for earworms and the frustrations that they bring , we can see that there is indeed an underlying connection between carols and evil……..

The carol was created as a way for Christians to sing,

“…in order that their throats and mouths, consecrated to God, may not be polluted by songs which are lewd secular, and associated with revelry…”
Richard Ledrede, Bishop of Ossory, 14th century


I have shown that carols were admonished by the church…..a church that associated everything it didn’t like with Satan’s will. So we have a very early admission to the malignant nature of carols and carolers… can be stated that if carols were banned by the church, then carolers were then doing the work of the devil. The general assumption that carolers are innocent holiday purveyors is clearly a misrepresentation.

Carolers are the scion of Satan. A teaching lineage can be established by the mere persistence of caroling into present day…in order for information to be repeated (carols), it had to be taught. It is an easily discernable fact, that does not require “public announcement” or “generations of records”, as my colleague has presented. The proof is in the existence.

My colleague can only attempt to construe the facts… the point of focusing some of his argument on irrelevancy….a commercial carol?!? He takes issue, without justification, at my use of the dictionary while coining new phrases on whim?!?

I have presented a clear representation of how Satan relates to carolers….I have even clearly explained why Satan would have reason to utilize carols in his evil plans. My opponent can only distract from the facts. And the facts clearly demonstrate that Carolers are, indeed, the scion of Satan.

posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 12:13 AM
As I said before, we've covered a lot of subjects, but we still haven't covered any evidence whatsoever that Satan had anything to do with the advent of carols.
On the contrary, my opponent's beloved Catholic Church canonized one of the first carolers while banning caroling. The church's opposition to caroling is compelling evidence that caroling is indeed an outlet for the stress that Satan has placed his victims under; an outlet that the church wanted a monopoly on.

My position has been consistent; I have not been driven off of any point of contention. My opponent has several times now had to retreat from untennable ground.

He several times tried to assert an incorrect definition of the word scion by flawed context.
Being thwarted each time, he then chose to assert a heiritage akin to Dharma Lineage, but then was forced to back down from that analogy and plead for you to recognize even less substantive "connections" as evidence.
In his most recent post, my opponent has abandoned his defense against the clear truth I have asserted, that commerce is Satan's primary instrument in corrupting the holiday season.

My opponent wishes to discuss anything but Satan because he cannot even prove that Satan exists. We've discussed the nature of Kenny G at greater length than that of Satan! My opponent has presented a Chewbacca Defense, nothing more.

I reitterate once more, as I have asserted and defended repeatedly: Carolers are not Satan's scion, but his victims. The stress of this season is commercial in nature, and caroling is a neurotic behavior subconsciously designed to relieve stress. The Catholic Church does not like that, because they desire to be the only source of spiritual relief for believers, because that organization is infiltrated by Satan; it's leaders are hungry for material gain and for power (and occasionally for 10 year old butts).
44% of Americans feel that they spend too much on Christmas. American retailers make half of their profit in the last 3 months of the year. Gifts alone cost Americans 2/3 as much as the defense budget, and more once travel, wrapping, shipping, decoration, and extra electricity are factored in.

This is an economic crunchtime when the average American is spending for all he's worth, but is well aware that a bad season means that his employer goes belly-up and leaves him financially ruined.

My opponent would have you believe that a catchy little jingle is Satan's favorite implement of torture. How does that really compare to the sort of economic pressure which can crush a person? People won't sell their souls to the Prince of Darkness for a jingle, but they will sell their souls to be financially restored after the Christmas crunch has destroyed them. Caroling is not the problem. Caroling is not the cause. Caroling is the result. It is a defense mechanism.
Carolers are not the scion of Satan.

posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 05:09 PM
Well, very fast you two, and, if I do say so myself, extremely enjoyable!

We're off to the judges!

posted on Dec, 31 2005 @ 06:59 PM
By a margin of 5-2, this debate goes The Vagabond!!!

This was a great debate, I had a great time reading it, and so did the judges!!!

The topic of this debate is clearly a hard-one to debate, but Memory Shock took a connection that was very weak, one of earworms. I applaud him for sticking to this premise though, and while one can connect stress to Satan, there was no clear connection of caroling to earworms/stress which Vagabond showed us. Though, Vagabond's preoccupation of relating the Church to Satan hurt his cause as Vagabond tried to redeem caroling by relating the canonization one of the first carolers. But what does canonization mean if it's being done by a satanic organization? Thus, it was a very close debate, overall though, Vagabond was the best debater.

the hardest that I laughed was when he logically showed there was no way Kenny G could be Satan's scion.

While both of them did a great job and were informational and to the point, I feel Memory Shock did a better job of presentation and was that much more clear and concise than vagabond.

My vote would have to go to Memory Shock!


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