I was reading some posts where someone mentioned civil war in America being fomented by extended empirical conquest and political fraud at home and at first i dismissed it as unfeasable, but then i began to wonder....how would such an effort be implemented, even in theory?What would be a viable scenario with which to exercise our constitutional right to overthrow our own government.Military coup?How?Any theories?

*Caps lock title edit*

[edit on 23-12-2005 by dbates]

It would not be able to be pulled off in this day and age.NO WAY. A coup is a whole different story.

Prior to Lincoln's interpretation of the Constitution, the States *assumed* they had the right to leave the Union at any time. Turns out they didn't. I think he pretty strongly set the precedent that we are citizens of the Federal Government first and the States are only there to give us football teams to pull for.

In order to "secede" in this day and age, the faction would literally have to overthrow the goverment. This could happen in 2 ways.

1) Militarily. Nearly impossible since only the Feds have things like Jets and Bombers.

2) Undermining election results and secure a powerful spot in the Fed Gov't and then run a "silent" take over. This is very possible... See Bush v. Gore 2000.

Actually, it could be quite possible by simple legal matters. It would require a popular vote (called a referendum), and nearly all representatives of the state in the government would have to be for the action. Once they pass it, they refuse to pay bills/taxes, and create their own courts and government. This is easily possible, since there's always people who are looking for ways to get power and money, and if the state wanted to leave the United States, and the constituents/populace are in agreement, then finding these people should not be a problem.

Then, file the documents at the United Nations that you are an independant country.

Pay some fees to the phone companies (or set up your own) to change around the area codes and such.

Organize a militia that will eventually form a military.

Create a currency-producing center and a new currency (do not try to keep the US currency like Quebec would try to keep Canadian currency).

And... well... I think that's really it.

So long as the people beneath you support you, a state could easily seperate from the union. The tough part is getting that support.

Originally posted by Yarium
Actually, it could be quite possible by simple legal matters. It would require a popular vote (called a referendum), and nearly all representatives of the state in the government would have to be for the action. Once they pass it, they refuse to pay bills/taxes, and create their own courts and government. This is easily possible, since there's always people who are looking for ways to get power and money, and if the state wanted to leave the United States, and the constituents/populace are in agreement, then finding these people should not be a problem.

Then, file the documents at the United Nations that you are an independant country.

Pay some fees to the phone companies (or set up your own) to change around the area codes and such.

Organize a militia that will eventually form a military.

Create a currency-producing center and a new currency (do not try to keep the US currency like Quebec would try to keep Canadian currency).

And... well... I think that's really it.

So long as the people beneath you support you, a state could easily seperate from the union. The tough part is getting that support.

Are you forgetting about the military?? Whats a militia going do once the federal goverment rolls in with ground troops (tanks, hummers, etc,etc) and air support? This little ploy would be a succesful as peeing in the wind. We have a militia in my state (read: a bunch of rednecks with hunting rifles) who would be put down in a heartbeat in an uprising.

In theory any group could, and can revolt against what they see as an unlawful, and/or unjust civil authority (ZOG, NWO, etc...), but the reality is that it would be unbelievably difficult to do so by force. The presidence for action by the federal government was set when Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox Court house in 1865. Revolt by ballot box is something else entirely, because despite accusations to the contrary; elections in this country (national races anyway, we won't discuss Washington states gubenatorial fiasco at this time) are fair. If enough people get angry with the professional politicos in power, they will vote them out (knock on wood).

Whompa1, you are right, if the government was willing to wage war in a true scenario of civil war, a militia would be betean down. However, to a country like the United States, what kind of impact would this have on markets, other states, and foreign investment? Would it be worth organizing an invasion of the new state? You are assuming that conflict must ensue - which is not necessarily true. Maybe I don't because I'm from Canada, and we have to constantly consider the issue of Quebec Seperation. I'm thinking peaceful seperation, not armed confrontations. The militia in this case would be used for extra police duty and establishing of at least something of a military presence (which forces an invading country to consider that casualties may ensue - which makes a war more unfavourable for the invading country).

So, if it came down to it, then yes a militia will do likely jack - but hopefully it wouldn't come down to that.

Originally posted by Yarium
Whompa1, you are right, if the government was willing to wage war in a true scenario of civil war, a militia would be betean down. However, to a country like the United States, what kind of impact would this have on markets, other states, and foreign investment? Would it be worth organizing an invasion of the new state? You are assuming that conflict must ensue - which is not necessarily true. Maybe I don't because I'm from Canada, and we have to constantly consider the issue of Quebec Seperation. I'm thinking peaceful seperation, not armed confrontations. The militia in this case would be used for extra police duty and establishing of at least something of a military presence (which forces an invading country to consider that casualties may ensue - which makes a war more unfavourable for the invading country).

So, if it came down to it, then yes a militia will do likely jack - but hopefully it wouldn't come down to that.

Well lets look at it this way. We'll use my state as an example. We currently house 200 ICB missiles. Supposing my state decided to remove itself from the union. I very much doubt that the federal goverment is just gonna stand by peacefully and watch these WMS fall into the hands of a bunch of seperatists and by the same coin I doubt it would be anything but peaceful. I think they would take it back by whatever means needed. Not only that our unofficial militia know as the "freemen" are anything but goverment friendly. In fact they hate the US goverment. Just by that alone anything remotely peaceful flies right out the window.

a quiet coup is the only way in this day and age. No way the gov't would be ok w/ any state leaving the Union.

possibly a state could get helpfrom someone else in exchange for something

Assuming a second civil war takes place in the USA its not unreasonable to assume that members of US military would turn there backs on the federal government and fight for there state. The problem would be logistics how would a state keep a squadron of combat aircraft airworthy?

we have plenty of civilian mechanichs who could be trained. And if the military rolls in go to the highschool ask people to makebombs they'll love it.
and do the same for the middle shcool
I'm serious it doesn't take much for a resourceful person to make a bomb in the US.

I could imagine a civil war resulting if illegal immigration isn't stopped soon. I see American citizens fed up with their jobs being usurped, their tax dollars squandered on unqualified recipients, their national tongue being replaced and their civil liberties secondary to undeserving invaders. I can see a civil war in America with resentful invaders bent on reclaiming the land they feel was stolen from them. The rampage of millions of illegal immigrants whose refusal to assimilate and deliberate over breeding would have guaranteed their takeover within the next few generations if American citizens would have stood passively by.
But if the illegals aren't soon punished instead of rewarded for breaking the law and the status quo continues, yes I firmly believe civil war will break out as Americans take the law into their own hands and the usurpers fight back!

Originally posted by xpert11
Assuming a second civil war takes place in the USA its not unreasonable to assume that members of US military would turn there backs on the federal government and fight for there state. The problem would be logistics how would a state keep a squadron of combat aircraft airworthy?

Why couldn't one just borrow a few federal aircraft? When men decide to turn their backs, who's to say they're not already behind the wheel?

Originally posted by Sri Oracle
Why couldn't one just borrow a few federal aircraft? When men decide to turn their backs, who's to say they're not already behind the wheel?

But how dose that solve the supply and logistics problem?
Are you going to rely on other countries to supply the cause?
Which countries would side against the current US government?

One scenario I could see is this, and it may be a bit out there, but you are asking for scenarios


As the war stretches on in the Middle East popular support for the current administration from both the civilian and military aspects is plummeting. Troops and Citizens alike call for a withdrawl and immediate legal action against the current government administration. Impeachment. In a bid to regain some sort of foot hold with the citizens of the US, the government plans an early withdrawl from most major zones of operation - with the exception of a few critical zones.

It's another sunny morning in DC. Everything will change today, as some unseen force ("Al-Quaeda", Foreign enemies, Inside job?) detonates a nuclear device in the US Capital. As the infrastructure of the US crumbles, the European Union makes a snap decision to send military aid and relief to the destroyed capital in the hopes of maintaining some sort of government control.

The States do not take kindly to this foreign invasion, as they have felt they have suffered enough due to the dealings of foreign nations and war. However, in a bid to establish a new American government and reign in control from the Europeans, the States feud on where to move the new capital. Driven by the will to power, pride, and foolishness, several states used the recalled military forces in their area to force their will upon the others.

So begins the Second American Civil War.
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In all seriousness, I could see some sort of publicly revealed deception by the government - something that encompasses all citizens - to be the spark of any sort of civil war. With the tension at an all time and the economy at a low, I find it hard to believe people wouldn't see an overthrow or coup as advantageous.

As Jefferson warned us at the birth of our nation (Excuse me if I get it slightly wrong) "The tree of democracy must be soaked with the blood of patriots from time to time."

Good scenario Conquistadork.I agree there would have to be widespread antagonism towards the current regime first, followed by a devastating attack in the capitol.Something big enough to shatter the political infrastructure and stymie federal response,at least long enough for a militia to organize and deploy.That alone might not do the trick though, and as you say a movement by europe to provide troops to quell the uprising could quickly fan the flames.Especially if the effort from abroad was saboutaged ala boston tea party with masquerading american rebels fooling the feds into thinking Europe was trying to take over.
I still think you would need cooperation within the military to do this.Without that any attempt would surely flounder in the long run.The military would have to be so thoroughly disenchanted that revolution consensus was reached quickly;before the feds could regroup and secure the military hardware for themselves.All in all i dont think it would work without alot of careful planning and foreknowledge.Something really big would have to happen.

Along that line of thought, I cant remember who said it, but I read once: "A revolution is nothing without a military backing it" or something along those lines. I completely agree though, theres no way untrained, unarmed civilians would be able to pull any of this off - not in this day and age anyway.

There was a thread elsewhere that recorded the current administrations popularity amongst the soldiers of the military has dropped sharply from 64% to 53% (Dont quote on me on that, Ill try and find the thread again, I also dont remember over what time period, but I'd imagine it was over a year). I'd call that a pretty sharp drop as dissent amongst the military is usually the hardest to garner, I'd imagine anyway, being disciplined and trained soldiers doesn't leave much room for opinion and dissent.