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President Bush and the final Crusade

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posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
Israel has to be back in their own land (done).


It was bound to happen sometime. Jews are people that are very attached to their tradition and their identity. The person that wrote the "prophecies" new very well that some day it may happen. People of the 20th century reading those prophecies thought it was a good time for this to take place.



There has to be wars and rumors of wars (done).


Rumors of wars were, are and always will be around. History is full with such cases.



False Christs and messiahs(done)


Do you know how many people have claimed to be the Messiah through out the centuries?



Knowledge has to increase (done)


There is no such prophecy in Christianity.



A union between the tribes of the north (Russia) with the Arab enemies of Israel (done).


Again, there is no such prophecy that mentions Russia and Arabs. You are making things up.



Natural disasters on a world scale that would cause death by fear (done).


There have been natural disasters all along human history. The volcano that wiped out the Minoan civilisation, for example; Pompei; and many more.



Plague (work in progress).


In the middle ages, the black plague killed almost everyone in Europe.



Reunification of the "Roman Empire" consisting of a military/political face and structure (almost ready to occur). Peace and Safety (please stand by...).


What? the west could not be more divided than now. There is no "roman empire", because Roman countries (Italy, Spain, France) have their own problems and political agentas.



God is for all the people, that's way we have Jesus.


You impose your religion to everyone else. How would you take it if someone said "Buda is for all the people"?



He came and paid our debt for our rebellion against God.


Every religion claims the same thing: that it is for all the people.

But the fact is there are thousands of religions in human history, so humans must be easily fooled to believe in a religion that is provably fake...therefore, there is nothing that can make Christianity a better choice.



Religions are man's attempt to reach out to God. Jesus is God's attempt to reach out to man. No religion can save you. It can make you a better person by worldy standards but that's all. Jesus on the other hand can save you and secure your place in the new age to come.


You are repeating every standard Christian book without analysing the situation and replying to my questions. You generalize and oversimplify, without giving it a second thought.

There is no new age to come, it is just human history repeated over and over.

Every being that reaches a certain brain capacity is to be religious. Religion is a response to the brain's need to give a meaning to this world.



It's not that I wish the Anti-Christ to come. Personally, I am convinced that we are entering the time of the very end. I do believe that the "rapture" as it is called can occcur at any time. God will not annouce it to anyone so know one may know. We are only given the season prior to it.


I am not talking specifically about you, but for Christians generally (even If I speak to 'you'). The need to be proven right is so great, that you go into many lengths to prove yourself wrong, including wishing for great destructions to come in order to prove your religion correct.

The funny thing is that all other religions behave exactly like you.



On Sept 11,2001 the United States of America was attacked from the sky by jets slamming into the World Trade Center towers and the Pentegon. One was planned for the Congrees building. Could it be said that the WTC, NYC etc. is the economic head of the nation, and that the Pentegon and Congress are the military and political "head" of the nation? We were wounded deeply


On the 11th of September 1973 the dictatorship of Pinochet slaughtered 30,000 people. All in one day! Chile's destruction is much greater. You just give yourself more importance to yourself, thinking "I am the greatest nation", and therefore you try to find a relevant meaning in the Bible.

Somewhere in the 90s (I do not remember when), more than 2 million African people were slaughtered in middle Africa within a week. Now that's a destruction, but I did not see anyone relating it to the bible.



and the world stood by to see what would happen.


The world stood because USA is the greatest military power, and a rushed response may lead to nuclear war.



Within months we had risen again to make war and to prosper as never before. The world was astonished at our comeback and our strong stand.


Believe me, the world was not astonished about anything. Don't believe your own hype. Outside of the USA, no one saw those 3 thousand deaths as a very important event. The event had great military and political significance, but that's about it. Once again, you give yourself more importance than you deserve.



Rev 13:3 And I saw one of its heads as having been slain to death, and its deadly wound was healed. And all the earth marveled after the beast.

Could the United States be a part of the "Beast having seven heads"? that had the wound by the sword and did live (Rev 13:14). The United States is a mamber to the "G-7" sometimes called the "G-8". (Group of seven nations). The Beast has seven heads and ten horns (Rev 13:1). Could the ten horns be the new UN security councel planned to consist of ten members with no veto power who will have to in turn allow a "head" to accept or veto a decision? ( The subject of the new UN security councel can be found easily by doing a google search of the UN news).


It is just a simple coincidence. Numbers such as 7 and 10 are found in history lots of times in various places.




posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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Masterp, I'm not sure if you're a believer or not. The problem with people is that sometimes they wouldn't know a prophecy has been fulfilled if they stripped over it. That's why Jesus ended up on the cross.

Fromabove



posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 03:06 PM
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The Bible does not contain the word "rapture".
this nonsense is the creation of 19th century hucksters and religious authors making millions off religious fear.

Revelation is based on the sybilline books, which were very popular in Rome for 600 years preceeding the birth of Jesus. These books contained prophecies and cryptic passages which could mean anything to anyone, which is why they became so popular. The book of revelation were a compromise between Roman Emperor and the organized church. The church did not want them, Romans wanted to continue the sybilline books in some form. What the church recieved in return was the recognition that Jesus was God as well.


At some point humanity will need to face the truth of its religious Zeal ; Millions have been killed and continue to be killed in the Name of "God", based on writings and teachings that are purposely obscured by organized religiouns that control ignorant masses.


Want to meet God...? volenteer at a homeless shelter. Donate blood to the red cross. Give the coat you dont need to someone that does. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless.

KIlling palestinians and Israelis, carpet bombing Iraq, murdering in gods name is not Fullfilling Gods Divine Plan.



posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 05:58 PM
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Even though the word "rapture" does not appear in the bible, it is the word used to describe "caught up".

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be "caught up" together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Beliefs differ as to when this will occur and if it will be that the Lord Jesus will be coming to the Earth to fight the Beast at that time or to "catch away" His church prior to the wrath of God. I personally believe that this will occur just after the Anti-Christ has been revealed, about 3.5 years into the final seven years of the age of this world.

I also don't believe that the Anti-Christ will suddenly pop up for a seven year rule. I believe that he will be ruling for awhile, or will a partaker in political power before he attains world domination over all people. I think of it going this way, and you have to understand that this is only my viewpoint of what I personally believe.

1. White horse rider - Powerful religious person seeking to expand his influence worldwide, perhaps President Bush.
2. Red horse rider - Major military person who is authorised to make war and to cause people to fight each other and take away peace from the Earth, possibly terrorist figure. (note person has a great sword - a body weapon for close personal conflict). Suitcase nuke ?
3. Black horse rider - Trade collapses plunging the world into financial ruin, person who has power to effect the world markets - ?
4. Pale horse rider - Plague, person is indicated, possible intentional use of a weapon.


Fromabove



posted on Dec, 25 2005 @ 06:41 PM
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[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Why dont we use the context as well..?

the passage you extracted has Nothing to do with the "rapture". This passage refers to the dead rising first and before those that are still living, at the second coming of Christ. The fact revelation stands alone and does not fit with the rest of the bible should give enough warning to people not to take it seriously. It was used by church leaders to raise fear (and thus MONEY) in the masses.

Revelations is nothing more than old Roman prophecies modified so they could be compromised into the Bible. Instead of concentrating on the writings of Roman druggies, take what Jesus said to heart. That is what God intended, not the nonsense contained in revelations.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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Actually Revelation is very valid and without it, the Bible would have a beginning but no ending. In other words, a fatal fall without the reparation of spiritual resurrection.

BUT
it is not about all this garbage about rapture and antichrist world powers, and the 4 horsemen are not man's evil but God's outworkings, refer to the book of Zechariah for an idea of what their job is.

White is purity, red is fiery, 'pale' is green and represents mortality, and the black horse is judgment. None are the devil's minions--the book is called 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ' which means 'unveiling.' It is not called 'the Revelation of Antichrist.'

It is totally in the style of the old Hebrew prophets--the Romans obviously have nary a clue about what it really says--look at all the rubbish that has come from the world's view of the book. Effective, though, in its distractive properties--since it serves well to keep the truth still hidden in the 'wilderness' while the dragon continues to speak lies to men's souls in the form of religion.

Religion is the intro, not the conclusion.

[edit on 12/26/2005 by queenannie38]



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
Masterp, I'm not sure if you're a believer or not.


I am not a believer of Christian dogma. My moto is "I do not know what is out there", instead of claiming absolute truth. It's clear that Christianity is an invention, just like any other religion. The chances of something being out there are fifty-fifty, and neither side can be proven or disproven.



The problem with people is that sometimes they wouldn't know a prophecy has been fulfilled if they stripped over it. That's why Jesus ended up on the cross.
Fromabove


So why are you claiming that you know we are in end times? how are you able to tell that a prophecy has been fulfilled, if many millions before you have not succeeded?


Originally posted by queenannie38
Actually Revelation is very valid and without it, the Bible would have a beginning but no ending. In other words, a fatal fall without the reparation of spiritual resurrection.

BUT
it is not about all this garbage about rapture and antichrist world powers, and the 4 horsemen are not man's evil but God's outworkings, refer to the book of Zechariah for an idea of what their job is.

White is purity, red is fiery, 'pale' is green and represents mortality, and the black horse is judgment. None are the devil's minions--the book is called 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ' which means 'unveiling.' It is not called 'the Revelation of Antichrist.'

It is totally in the style of the old Hebrew prophets--the Romans obviously have nary a clue about what it really says--look at all the rubbish that has come from the world's view of the book. Effective, though, in its distractive properties--since it serves well to keep the truth still hidden in the 'wilderness' while the dragon continues to speak lies to men's souls in the form of religion.

Religion is the intro, not the conclusion.

[edit on 12/26/2005 by queenannie38]


Christianity has been (re)invented by the Great Constantine. The basic dogma has been established at the ecumenical council A' around 348 AD. Before that, Christianity had no revelation, no Armadeggon, no concept of hell, no concept of a fight in the heavens for dominance on man. It was purely a 'improve your soul' religion, much like Budhism. Jesus himself never spoke of hell and eternal torture or fallen angels.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 07:28 AM
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Posted by Masterp:

So why are you claiming that you know we are in end times? how are you able to tell that a prophecy has been fulfilled, if many millions before you have not succeeded.
_____________________________

Actually what I said was that I believe we are in the "end times". But it is only how I am persuaded. I don't claim to have any more advantahe than anyone else so that is why I say it is an opinion. When Jesus appeared on the Earth, no one accepted Him but a very few prior to his death on the cross. Yet He fulfilled many prophecies, and even intentionally fulfilled some. But still some didn't believe. So it is today. It's not the natural disasters, or the wars and rumors of wars, or the plague, etc. We have always had war and disease, but it is the coming together of them at a time when Israel again a nation.

President Bush will only have one legacy, and that is of a "war president". True he had a few tax cuts and what not, but his whole presidency is based upon fighting terrorists. He himself described himself as a "hunter" (the bow) who is looking for shadowy figures in caves and other nations. It is a war of "good verses evil" so he claims. Us against them. He is also a so-called religious man claiming virtue and truth on his part (white horse), and he is seeking to spread his ideals to the world. The first seal event is a world event which will affect Israel (roadmap to peace). Everyone knows that President Bush was not elected to office in 2000 because it was a tie between him and Gore. They went to Court and in a decision by the court Bush had a "crown" placed upon his head even though it was only on paper. He was chosen and then "given" a kingdom to rule. (white horse rider is given a crown)

Fromabove



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 07:36 AM
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From Revelation 13

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
_______________________________

Only in this modern era do we have the knowledge to make a "thing" that can speak and command. Computers do it all the time. The world is to make an image of the Beast that will have "life". If anyone has seen what has been accomplished in robotics, this scripture could be fulfilled soon (perhaps).


From above



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
Actually what I said was that I believe we are in the "end times". But it is only how I am persuaded. I don't claim to have any more advantahe than anyone else so that is why I say it is an opinion.


But your opinion affects me as well, and it is (coincidence?) the opinion of US leaders. We risk a war that might kill us for things unprovable.



When Jesus appeared on the Earth, no one accepted Him but a very few prior to his death on the cross. Yet He fulfilled many prophecies, and even intentionally fulfilled some. But still some didn't believe.


That's not a proof of anything. I challenge you to prove that what is written in the new testament is true. Some of it is true, but can you say that all the miracles etc are true?

How do we know that what is written is not what someone deliberately wrote in order to make the prophecies seem true?



So it is today. It's not the natural disasters, or the wars and rumors of wars, or the plague, etc. We have always had war and disease, but it is the coming together of them at a time when Israel again a nation.


The possibility of not having war and disease in 50 years of human history is ...none. 0. nil. That's not a sign of anything.

Furthermore, in the last 50 years we have the fewest wars. Actually, there is no official war on Earth, since the Iraq situation (or the Balcan situation) is not considered a war.

Consider, for example, any period in the middle ages and you will see that the blood spilt in those times was much more than what it is today: The crusades, the Normans, the Germanic Tribes of the North, the Arabic Empire, Jenkhis Chan, etc.



President Bush will only have one legacy, and that is of a "war president". True he had a few tax cuts and what not, but his whole presidency is based upon fighting terrorists.


The USA government is a hostage of the international economical, industrial and military establishment. Had Bush not wanted to go to war, he would have been murdered.



He himself described himself as a "hunter" (the bow) who is looking for shadowy figures in caves and other nations. It is a war of "good verses evil" so he claims. Us against them.


Bush is doing the same thing many leaders before did: he is provoking people's feelings, in order to make them accept his actions.



He is also a so-called religious man claiming virtue and truth on his part (white horse), and he is seeking to spread his ideals to the world.


Bush and virtue do not belong in the same sentence. He was arrested for drugs, he was accused of homosexuality, all the members of his family have a police record.



The first seal event is a world event which will affect Israel (roadmap to peace). Everyone knows that President Bush was not elected to office in 2000 because it was a tie between him and Gore. They went to Court and in a decision by the court Bush had a "crown" placed upon his head even though it was only on paper. He was chosen and then "given" a kingdom to rule. (white horse rider is given a crown)

Fromabove


Oh come on, now, no one can be that naive.



Only in this modern era do we have the knowledge to make a "thing" that can speak and command. Computers do it all the time. The world is to make an image of the Beast that will have "life". If anyone has seen what has been accomplished in robotics, this scripture could be fulfilled soon (perhaps).


Computers can not speak or command by themselves. They repeat what humans record. They are fancy calculators, and nothing more.

Robotics has nothing to do with the scriptures. First of all, artificial intelligence is many centuries away in the future. Secondly, the technology that is needed to make an artificial brain with computational power equal to the human brain is unthinkable. The human brain has 100,000,000,000 (100 billion) synapses, capable of holding and processing over 300,000,000,000,000 (300 trillion) pieces of information per second.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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Posted by Masterp:

That's not a proof of anything. I challenge you to prove that what is written in the new testament is true. Some of it is true, but can you say that all the miracles etc are true?

How do we know that what is written is not what someone deliberately wrote in order to make the prophecies seem true?
__________________________________________


This is where we will always differ because I believe due to faith. I can say that all the miracles are true.

Somebidy did write all things to make the prophecies come true. Even Jesus intentionally made by His own actions the prophecies of himself come true. That this can happen only shows that it did. All that prophecies are is "signposts" to show where we may be at any certain time. In order to take what is written in the Bible as truthful, you need faith because you are depending upon God to cause what he says to be written by men as He wills. God is a Spirirt so he uses man to speak to man of his will. Without faith you really can't ever accept anything from scripture because you need God's help to understand it. As the end of this world age draws to a close, it is written that mankind will lose his way in order to believe a lie. There is no God, there is no Anti-Christ, everything has always been the same since man was around, etc. Then when Anti-Christ finally does come and he does do miracles and brings peace for a time to the world everyone who said no to Jesus will believe he is a god and will follow him. They will gladly take his mark saying that the Bible was a bunch of Bunk. That is what is written and not merely my own opinion though I do believe this because I am always so amazed how there are people who do not hear the voice of God in their hearts and who have no thoughts of the Creator, and never consider where they will go when they die.

As for computers, yes they do as they are told, but so do people. They are programmed and taught what to do from birth. Computers tell people what to do all the time. Just go to the grocery store or the bank. They even say "thankyou.. come again..." But a super computer that contains logic programs and action-reaction sytems, that would be the beginning of a semi-self aware creation built by man for man in his image.


Fromabove



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
I have wondered recently if we may be in what is known as the "end time". We have political turmoil, natural disasters, and plague on the horizon.

True. But this is normal.

No seriously, its normal. None of it particularly indicates that the biblical apocalypse is about to start.


We may be on the brink of real nuclear war between many nations.

But we are not, as the world so recently was, on the brink of a global thermonuclear war between the russians and the US, which would effectively destroy the world. THe problem today is a nuke exchange that wipes out Islamabad or New Dehli, which would be terrible, but not apocalyptic for the rest of the world. Same deal if Israel and Iran go nuclear. Even if the US and N.Korea go nuclear, its just the US and mostly N.Koreans who get zapped. The real danger in the past was that the world becomes a nuclear wasteland and a battlefield between Nato and the Soviets.




Once in office, in the first year of his rule, America was attacked.

America was attacked long before that, with the embassy bombings, the cole attack, and even the 'original', though less 'spectacular' WTC bombing.




Could the white horse represent

Your interpretation is reasonable, except that this is something that was written in the earliest portions of the first millenium, and probably references things that the author and his audience at the time were more familiar with, rather than the modern US. Also, the same collection of books that Revelation is assigned to states that the apocalypse would happen before the generation of the apostles themselves died out.



And do you think he knows about this prophecy? Tell me what you think.

Definitly. He's seem as something of a bible thumper. Apparently he took strongly to religion when getting over his alcoholism. He's a methodist (tho his parents are presbertyrians i think).
Some have said that he's aware of it, and trying to fufil it. I don't know about that. However, the current president of iran has stated that the apocalypse (the islamic version) is comming soon, within the next two years. Thats disconcerting.

Fromabove



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 04:29 PM
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This is where we will always differ because I believe due to faith. I can say that all the miracles are true.


Well, good for you then, but with these opinions you and others have, progress on Earth is very slow. And that's a real big problem: people trust their lifes on some imaginary friend in the sky, instead of realizing their power and improve the way they live.



Somebidy did write all things to make the prophecies come true. Even Jesus intentionally made by His own actions the prophecies of himself come true. That this can happen only shows that it did.


self-fulfilled prophecies, in other words.



In order to take what is written in the Bible as truthful, you need faith because you are depending upon God to cause what he says to be written by men as He wills.


But a guy next to you, that prays to a different God, says the same thing.

One of you is clearly a lier.

Who is it?



God is a Spirirt so he uses man to speak to man of his will.


Well, God made this world, so he can surely interact with it. So there is no excuse for 'using man to speak of his will'.



Without faith you really can't ever accept anything from scripture because you need God's help to understand it.


when you say 'understand', you surely mean different from 'understand' as in mathematics, for example, don't you? because scripture is nothing more than the illogical fears of man throughout the ages (mostly).



As the end of this world age draws to a close


You haven't addressed the fact that you can't prove that the world does not draw to a close.

Nor you have addressed the fact that 2000 years of history is a mere blip in God's eye.



it is written that mankind will lose his way in order to believe a lie.


There was never an era that 100% mankind believed in Christianity. In fact, Christianity has been imposed by torture.



There is no God, there is no Anti-Christ, everything has always been the same since man was around, etc.


Ok, since we do not know who is lying here, how about applying a bit of logic?



Then when Anti-Christ finally does come and he does do miracles and brings peace for a time to the world everyone who said no to Jesus will believe he is a god and will follow him.


Hey, I can assure you I will follow no one that claims God-like status. So do many like-minded people.



They will gladly take his mark saying that the Bible was a bunch of Bunk.


Ok, where is the mark? I do not see it.

They talked about bar codes, but not all bar codes have '666' on them.

They talked about making id chips mandatory, but that is far away in the future...beyond 200 years in the future. There would be so many and big political and social revolutions by then, I see no way of this ever happening.

And good luck imposing such a plan on China.



That is what is written and not merely my own opinion though I do believe this because I am always so amazed how there are people who do not hear the voice of God in their hearts


What do you mean exactly by 'voice of God in their hearts'? aside from being a romantic phrase, it has absolutely no other meaning. That I want to offer love to other people, help them, support them in any way I can has nothing to do with God. It is a physical need. Through giving, I survive.



and who have no thoughts of the Creator, and never consider where they will go when they die.


Why should I go anywhere? dying is a natural act: the body fails to sustain operations, and the central computer that is the brain ceases to operate.

There is absolutely no logic behind the concept of hell. Think about it: do you know anything about heaven or hell? no. Why? because nobody has been there, and nobody came back to tell. And because the Christian dogma says nothing about it. So why does it exist? it only exists as a threat: people, fearing of going to hell, are forced to behave in a good way.



As for computers, yes they do as they are told, but so do people. They are programmed and taught what to do from birth. Computers tell people what to do all the time. Just go to the grocery store or the bank. They even say "thankyou.. come again..." But a super computer that contains logic programs and action-reaction sytems, that would be the beginning of a semi-self aware creation built by man for man in his image.


he he...you couldn't even be more far away from computer technology. I am a programmer, trust me. Our computers are so primitive, that any mention of 'self-awareness' is a good joke amongst programmers. Our programs are so faulty that 95% of development is spent in maintenance, costing trillions of dollars every year. The simplest program that is a mere 100s of lines of code contains thousand possible bugs...



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