FC-1 / JF-17 'Thunder' / Super J-7

Originally posted by Lampyridae
Yep, the old Finns were crazy mad dudes! It just goes to show that it's not the crate, it's the man in it. Although the US Air Force and Navy don't seem to think so anymore - UCAV is the watchword of the future.

No wonder the Federation is always getting its butt kicked by the Romulans / Klingons / Borg / whoever else feels like giving them a good thumping...

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Finns the only air force in the world who had aces flying the Brewster Buffalo? The plane that no one else wanted because it was too slow, unmaneuverable, and under gunned??

Brewster Buffaloes! That's gotta be a sight!

I agree, give me the good ol' turn and burn anyday. But if missile countermeasures were up to scratch, shooting missiles at each other will be a waste of time.

Anyway, in the next twenty years missiles will beome obsolete. Diode-pumped or chemical laser pods will be fitted on hardpoints instead of BVRMs. Then there won't even be time to dodge!

Thats a new plane? Looks old as dirt.

Originally posted by heelstone
Thats a new plane? Looks old as dirt.

This JF-17 'Thunder' is better than most F-16s.. hardly 'dirt'..

And yeah FAF used Brewsters.. they were just stripped of all the 'sensitive' US 'parts' before sending them to us.. like the carrier 'gear' .. etc.. we had to equip them by our selfs.. so the plane were when completed much more lighter in weight.. and so more agile.. and was steady weapons platform..

FAF had total of 44 Brewster B-239s which were nick named as 'Taivaan helmi', 'Pearl of sky' these 44 machines downed 477(+17?) enemy aircrafts..

the OSPREY elite units series has a book on HLELV (LELV) 24.. that scored those 477 victories.

Lentolaivue 24 (Aviation Elite Units 4)

That is a link to that book on OSPREYS page.. some info on there..

To be honest...

The thing is rolling off the factory floor in an outdated state. It reflects the best in 1980s thinking and conceptualization.

Sorry 'dogfighters', but UCAVs and research into particle beam weapons has made those brawny fighters (which LOOK like they come from the Camero IROC era) about as potent as an armoured knight on horseback.

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
To be honest...

The thing is rolling off the factory floor in an outdated state. It reflects the best in 1980s thinking and conceptualization.

Sorry 'dogfighters', but UCAVs and research into particle beam weapons has made those brawny fighters (which LOOK like they come from the Camero IROC era) about as potent as an armoured knight on horseback.

All these 'advanced' and 'guided' weapons are just products of weak minds of western people.. western people who 'need' to win wars, yet they cant bear any casualities.



In the good old times men were 'made out of armor'.. now days men are weak.. machines do the job..

Originally posted by Seekerof
Welp Fulcrum....welcome to the future buddy....cause that is the current trend and philosophy that is being mandated and set for the future of air engagements.....beyond visual range and detection....first to "see"/detect and the first to fire.....maneoverability is almost becoming obsolete, per se'.


regards
seekerof

if all the future aircraft will be so uberstealth then it all comes down to the manuverability and the dogfighting skills

Originally posted by SectorGaza

Originally posted by Seekerof
Welp Fulcrum....welcome to the future buddy....cause that is the current trend and philosophy that is being mandated and set for the future of air engagements.....beyond visual range and detection....first to "see"/detect and the first to fire.....maneoverability is almost becoming obsolete, per se'.


regards
seekerof

if all the future aircraft will be so uberstealth then it all comes down to the manuverability and the dogfighting skills

Gaza..

You just love to say this? Dont you?



But.. that is the truht.. maybe..

imagine if the plasma stealth is true? i heard they used it on mig-31 and su-34, what if they install it on mig-21?

Originally posted by SectorGaza
imagine if the plasma stealth is true? i heard they used it on mig-31 and su-34, what if they install it on mig-21?

MiG-21 and its variants.. including "FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17" are good i enough fighter for their 'jobs'..

But i really trhink that the whole 'Plasma Stealth' is sci-fi bogus..

(not real..)



[Edited on 28-9-2003 by Bandit]

JF-17 To Draw Wide International Attraction

September 23, 2003: A spokesman of the Chinese Foreign office Kong Quan hoped that the sale of JF17, a multi-purpose fighter aircraft jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China will draw wide attraction home and abroad.

The aircraft has already held its maiden test flight successfully early this month. However, it is being further examined and tested upon. At the moment, the development of the plane is going on smoothly, the spokesman said, adding "It is not yet the time to buy it in large quantity. "Talking to APP in Beijing, the spokesman said the China Air Force will also consider to use its home-designed fighter plane. The Air Force is actively following the development of the plane, he added.

The spokesman said, the JF 17 also known as super J-7 is a light multi-purpose fighter used together with top class fighters. It has also advanced combat characterizes and relatives low-cost. Meanwhile, President Yang Chunshu of China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) said China will beef up its co-operation with Pakistan in development and sales of military and non-military aircraft in the coming years. "The maiden flight of the fighter jet was a clear indication that co-operation between the two countries in the aviation industry has born another important fruit," Yang said. The JF17 fighter jet project, which China and Pakistan jointly funded, started in 1999 when CATIC signed a co-operative agreement with the Pakistan Air Force, Yang said.

Since then, CATIC, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Company, Chengdu Aircraft Designing Institute and the Pakistan Air Force have been developing the jet, he said. "We will continue to work closely with Pakistan in the coming years to produce and sell the JF17 aircraft," he said, adding, "With efforts from both sides, we believe the JF17 fighter jet will have good market prospects," he said. China started its long-term co-operation with Pakistan in aircraft manufacturing in the spring of 1979, several months after CATIC was established. Yang noted, with "Pakistan becoming China's largest trading partner in terms of aviation." In 1986, CATIC signed an agreement with Pakistan to jointly develop the K-8 trainer, an aircraft model designed for training missions, such as take-offs, landings, acrobatics, night flying and spin flights, as well as armament operations training.

In 1994, the first group of six K-8 aircraft were delivered to the Pakistan Air Force. Today, a number of other countries have shown strong interest in the K-8 aircraft.

Sorry Fulcrum/John..........

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - OCTOBER 08, 2003


"Engine dispute threatens Chinese fighter sales"
Robert Karniol JDW Asia-Pacific Editor
Bangkok

"Pakistan's planned acquisition of the JF-17 Thunder (previously known as the FC-1/Super-7) lightweight fighter is in doubt, following the revelation by Russian sources that China holds no right to re-export the Russian-made Klimov RD-93 turbofan engine used to power the prototype aircraft.

"China has no agreement with Russia on re-export [of the engine]," a senior Russian source told Jane's Defence Weekly, suggesting that the aircraft may need to be re-engined for anticipated sales outside China.

In addition to interest from the Pakistan Air Force, which reportedly has a requirement for about 150 JF-17s, published reports indicate that the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group has broad ambitions for further international sales to potential customers including Bangladesh, Egypt and Nigeria. The Chinese organisation has been developing the JF-17 since the Super-7 programme was cancelled in 1991, following US sanctions against the country. Beijing and Islamabad concluded a joint development and production agreement for the aircraft in June 1999.

China's People's Liberation Army Air Force has a requirement for "several hundred" of the aircraft, but it is thought that a firm contract has yet to be placed for the design. The prototype JF-17 conducted its first test flight on 25 August, and formal flight tests were launched in Chengdu on 2 September (JDW 10 September). Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat attended the latter event.

Pakistan had been expected to receive its first 12 JF-17s for test and evaluation purposes during 2004, but this schedule appears likely to suffer a delay if the aircraft is required to undergo a re-engining programme."

regards
seekerof

Seeker,

While this poses some major problems for other export customers..

I seriously doubt that this has much effect on PAF order..

As this is all about Russia wanting its money for the engines, and nothing more..

Or it could be that Indians have said to Russians that PAF having these engines is not a good deal..

As India is a ally and major client for Russia.



But lets not worry, they will get engines for JF-17.. RD-93 or then some Chinese design..

Link!

Well mainly this pic:


I havent seen this before..
(In this pic FC-1/JF-17/Super 7 looks a bit like JAS Gripen, but not much.. it isnt a copy.. as it is much modified MiG-21/J-7.)



But as hard as i tryed..

I didnt find anything else new about the progress of this project..



Btw,

I think that its now solely called as JF-17..
(Confusing with all these names..)

Let's clear a few things up here... A lot of folks being cynical in here. Loads has changed since 5 years you posted all the above... The JF-17 has improved drastically.

Every air force has a doctrine, certain amount of resources, requirements etc. Based upon these choices are made. The PAF is a very professional organisation that knows what it’s doing. It’s a milestone in the history of Pakistani and Chinese aviation industry if we take their recent achievements into account. Remember that a few decades ago Pakistan was heavily reliant on the West for spare parts, maintenance etc. Sanctions, intimidation and threats were imminent. Now with such successful JVs that's the past. Also let's not forget that only a handful of countries in the world produce fighter jets. China and Pakistan now belong to that particular club. We know what the Chinese are capable of and they're catching up lightning fast. It's only matter of time before China is up there with the rest. In the mean time, China is supplying all the goodies (without any strings attached) that comply with our requirements. What else could we wish for?

The initial batches will consist of Chinese radar (KLJ-7), weaponry and a Russian engine (RD-93). Let’s not forget that the JF-17 was initially developed to replace the current aging PAF fleet of F-7s, A-5s, Mirage's etc. The JF-17 is cost-effective, attached without strings, easy to maintain and possesses the ability of ALCM (Ra’ad), BVR (SD-10, MICA etc.) and nuclear warfare which the PAF has sought for quite a while. It provides Pakistan with the advantage of becoming an independent and indigenous producer of fighter jets in the longer run. Moreover, as a result technical know-how in the form of ToTs etc. will be another big bonus. It’s a huge step upwards if we take everything into consideration.

Basically, the JF-17 will fulfill the role of a frontline workhorse (250 to 300 Thunders). However, as India procures and inducts new fighter jets over the years, Pakistan will also have to counter that threat. That’s why PAF has already shown willingness in further developing the current JF-17 into a more advanced version consisting of different configurations, Blocks etc. Obviously, the JF-17 will become more potent over time as each Block is developed with better specs. By acquiring different sorts of engines (RD-93, WS-13, RD-93B thrust vector etc.), weaponry (MICA, A/R-Darter, IRIS-T, AIM-120C etc.) and radars (PESA and AESA) from France, China and perhaps other countries PAF is already diversifying the JF-17. By diversifying the batches PAF will curb on cost yet induct different platforms with different capabilities and roles. Let’s also not forget that plans are in place to acquire a custom-made AESA radar that would truly enhance the capabilities of the JF-17. Also the airframe will in the longer run be modified (composite materials) to achieve a stealthier design, more payload, more speed, longer range etc. The JF-17 will be data linked with Saab 2000 AEW&C and other Chinese AWACS which will also contribute in boosting its radar range.

Anyone that has been following the development of the JF-17 over the years knows that the Thunder has dramatically evolved from a measly lightweight fighter into a multi-role fighter. Couple all of the above with J-10, J-XX, F-16 and you’ve a really potent lineup that can challenge any air force in the world. Let’s not disregard that PAF also has the option of acquiring additional French aircraft such as Rafale. Especially, considering the ongoing negotiations for radars and missiles which has opened the way for such a lucrative deal.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by hitman666]

good points hitman.
Welcome to ATS.

What is the realistic estimate of the PAF getting any Rafales in the next decade?
Numbers, versions et al

reply to post by Seekerof


Sorry to disappoint Seekerof, but the deal is through.

reply to post by Daedalus3


It would be too premature and irresponsible for me to come up with numbers. I was only hinting towards a possibility. I think in the future PAF might opt for a small elite squadron of Rafale's after the MRCA deal is through. Of course the latest variant if they ever go for it. However, with China's J-XX 5th gen aircraft project ongoing it would seem a wiser choice. For now it's a probable speculation that wasn't on the cards a few years ago.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by hitman666]

Exactly; I was thinking the J-XX would be a smarter choice.

Keep us updated.
Good to have a PAF enthusiast here at ATS.
Welcome again

reply to post by Daedalus3


Thanks for the warm welcome!