Santa "Claws"

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posted on Dec, 21 2005 @ 12:56 PM
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Here is my turn to rant....

I have yet to understand the need for the exhistance of "santa claus" as well as for the reason why the true dark origin of it is not mentioned by anyone ?

Tho many people tell their children about santa claus, it amazes me the most that most of christian would bite that bate ...

If Jesus is the reason for the season Why do some many Christians lie to their children about santa claus, on the exact same day they are suppose to be celebrating the birth of their savior? did Jesus die so christians can make up lies about Santa claus ?

Isnt it sinning against God and all what He represents, to lie to children ...that are pure and innocent? and by lying to children about Santa claus are christian parents the ones that first teach their children how to lie ?

My parents did not tell me about santa (and i'm very thankfull to them for that), they simply said ther eason why we share gifts is because the wize men brought gifts to baby Jesus when he was born.
Saint Nicholas exhisted, but he is NOT the origin of the guy in the red suite. The truth is that "santa claus and his red suite" have very dark origins, that started 'ions' ago during the Festival of the Stagg' where a priest would skin a reein deer alive and than wear his skin inside out as the offer was sent to the Gods. that why Rudolph's nose is "red and shiny", and thats how Santa got his Red suite.

Here follow a couple of questions that puzzle me ....

1) when parents tell children about Santa, they tell them Santa will bring them everything they asked for if they are good boys/girls. Well when the child does not what they asked for, isnt it cruel to sedn them on a guilt trip, based on a lie ?
won't the child ask her/himself "what did i do wrong? Why doesnt santa like me ?"

2) How can one criticze Harry Potter and things of that nature for portraying witchcraft and than teach children about a guy in a red suite that flys across the skies, pulled by magic reein deers, and squeezes himself dow chimnees, while everyone is asleep ? isn't that magic or a form of wichtraft ?

3) I am often told that the reason why i think this way is because i have no children, and if i did i would love them and do everything for them.
well thats alovelly thought, but i dont see how sending children into unecessary guilt trips over a false story based on a dude that skine animals alive is in any way shape or form considered love ?

4) Did not Jesus say that those " who loveth and maketh a lie won't enter Heaven ?", how does that connect with the santa claus thing ? I am prefectly aware that everyone lies once in a while... i lie as well to myslef ... when i look in the mirror in the morning and say "girl, you look great.", nevertheless, there is a mighty difference between a "once-in- a- while sleep" followed by repentace, and reuqest of forgiveness, and a YEARLY REPETITION of a lie disguised as "Tradition", in one of the days thats supposelly should be SACRED and HOLY to Christians ?

5) Also, why are parents surprised when their children lie to them for the first time ? Why do parents aske "where did he/she learn how to lie ?" Its obvious where they learned how to lie ... at home , with their parents, whom they look up to. their parents were the first ones to initiate them in the fabulous world of lying. the first lie told to them WAS SANTA CLAUS. Off course everyone will eventually learn how to lie, but wouldn it be better if kids learned that from someone else, instead of their parenst ?

6) Finally... what is the REAL need of having Santa claus ? what is it for ?
we can't say its so that cildren have fantasy, because children have PLENTY of fantasy... they even get their own "invisible" friends... if thats not fantasy, i don't know what is ?

P.S. - "Santa" can see all and veryone, flye across the skys, know who is naughty or nice.... deliever millions of gifts in a couple of hours... aren't those "God" like qualities ? ..Isn't God suppose to be the only one capable to know everything and everyone ?




posted on Dec, 21 2005 @ 01:04 PM
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I agree with the notion of kids celebrating the arrival of a mythical charachter rather than the birth of christ, but those who believe in Santa Claus are you young to understand the concept of religion in the first place. So I do not see the harm in allowing the children a few years of enjoyment and then being told the difference and realizing what christmas is all about. If you have never believed in Santa I guess you do not know what you are missing out on. I will let my children believe in it, and when they grow older they too will learn the difference and then acknowledge what christmas really is for. Let kids be kids, because that is all it is for.

I am caught up in the spirit of christmas these last few days and remembering my childhood how excited I was during these last few days before christmas. Merry Christmas!



posted on Dec, 21 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by chissler
but those who believe in Santa Claus are you young to understand the concept of religion in the first place. [/quote

They are also to young to be lied too, i guess?


If you have never believed in Santa I guess you do not know what you are missing out on. [/quote
I don't consider beeing lied to, specially by my parents, something i "missed out on".


Let kids be kids, because that is all it is for.


yes, let the kids be kids, keep them pure, innocent, happy, filled with imagination, and above everything safe and loved... i agree... what i dont agree with is... how exactly does the santa lie protect, love, and keeps children pure ? they dont seem very happy when they find out that their dear "santa" that their parents SWEAR WAS TRUE, doesnt exhist after all ?

[quoteI am caught up in the spirit of christmas these last few days and remembering my childhood how excited I was during these last few days before christmas. Merry Christmas!


thats great.... so am I... but do you also remember how much it hurt you when you found out it wasnt true ?

I was lucky...i didnt feel that pain


Merry christmas to you and yours.



posted on Dec, 21 2005 @ 01:39 PM
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They are also to young to be lied too, i guess?




I don't consider beeing lied to, specially by my parents, something i "missed out on".


Ok that is alittle much I think, every parent has the choice of how they want to approach this with their kids. We all make the decision and have that right too. What we dont have the right to is to talk out against those who make the decision different from another. Yes when I found out that he was not real it was abit of a let down, but I quickly got over it. And when I look back now I am very satisfied with the route they decided to take and can not wait to do it with my own children.



yes, let the kids be kids, keep them pure, innocent, happy, filled with imagination, and above everything safe and loved... i agree... what i dont agree with is... how exactly does the santa lie protect, love, and keeps children pure ? they dont seem very happy when they find out that their dear "santa" that their parents SWEAR WAS TRUE, doesnt exhist after all ?


Alot of people agree with this and in some cases you are probably dead right, but with me i do not agree because I understand why my parents did what they did.



thats great.... so am I... but do you also remember how much it hurt you when you found out it wasnt true ?


Yes I do, I cried like the little kid I was :shk:



I was lucky...i didnt feel that pain


No you are not lucky, I cried for 5 minutes over the fact he was not real, and enjoyed many years of being a kid. I couldnt sleep for a week before christmas, and my biggest hope was to one day meet him, If you have never experienced this you do not understand what it means to kids. They spend 11 months waiting for this guy to come, and nobody was going to take that away from me. I sincerely believe kids don't really care if he is real or not, it is the chance we give them to use their imagination. We spend 95% of our lives in the real world, lets leave this 5% to the imagination of an ambitious child.



Merry christmas to you and yours


Same to you, and may we all remain healthy through the holidays!



[edit on 21-12-2005 by chissler]



posted on Dec, 23 2005 @ 10:48 AM
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There are two stories about santa claus. The first is that the christian holiday of christmas is picking up pagan traditions and festivals, and that Santa gets added to it because of a preist (orthodox i think) named Nicholas who gave presents to the townschildren around that time. With time he is morphed into Father Christmas in england, the elfin Santa Claus in the US, and other variations.


The other story about Santa Claus is even weirder. Apparently, the older traditions associated with Christmas time celebrations involved a weird entourage that would parade through the town. One was a jester/harlequin woman, another was a man in a red dyed goat skin, and there are other assorted characters. They'd 'break in' to people's houses (not violently or unexpectedly though) and sortof play harras people in the houses, collecting gifts, etc, eventually parading to a locale where the man in the goatskin would be shot, originaly by an archer, later a gunman. I think the goatman comes upon the gunman with his wife or some variation thereof.

This is odd, but it gets even odder. The myth traces back to even more nad more pritmive versions. Apparently the Ainu of Japan (these are aborigines to the japanese islands who live in reservations now and aren't like the usual 'ethnic' japanese), have ritual where the group goes to the hills, goes into a bear cave, cathes a bear, and after having a celebration with the bear as the gues of honor, consume it (or perhaps prepare it, prop up its fur pelt, and have it as the feast-meal).

Anyway, part of the ritual is placing bear skulls iwth their femurs in the eye sockets in a ritualistic pattern. Tthis tracks back to even older rituals found in the caves of cro magnon men where neanderthal skulls have been found (controversially) in this same pattern.


So santa claus is a cave man, wearing the fur coat, crawling through a narrow passe, associated with wild animals like reindeer, yeilding gifts (bear meat, presents, same difference).


Here is a good article on it
www.forteantimes.com...
There is also a book on this theory in more detail.
Santa Claus: Last of the Wild Men by Phyllis Siefker



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by chissler[/]

No you are not lucky, I cried for 5 minutes over the fact he was not real, and enjoyed many years of being a kid. I couldnt sleep for a week before christmas, and my biggest hope was to one day meet him, If you have never experienced this you do not understand what it means to kids. They spend 11 months waiting for this guy to come, and nobody was going to take that away from me. I sincerely believe kids don't really care if he is real or not, it is the chance we give them to use their imagination. We spend 95% of our lives in the real world, lets leave this 5% to the imagination of an ambitious child.


5 minutes that you spent crying for nothing... this statement itself shows me I AM and WAS LUCKY. My childhood went alot further than just to wait for someone who doesnt exhist..

Anyway, no problem, because millions of parents will keep perpetuating this frivulous nonsense in the name of " children's fantasy", when children ahve plenty of fantsay no need for lies... Another Christmas passes, and another generation will have to go throu this nonsensical ritual of hypocricy... oh well... people do whatver they want ...



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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I just keep hearing, Bah Humbug!

You still have made no valid point to say why Santa "Claws" is so bad, only because you are against this horrible lie that kids are told. Millions of children are playing with their new toys as we speak, which their parents worked hard for and take no credit, because they let the jolly old guy have it for a few short years. What is the harm?



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by chissler
I just keep hearing, Bah Humbug!

You still have made no valid point to say why Santa "Claws" is so bad, only because you are against this horrible lie that kids are told.


that in itself should be enough of a point, the lying that is.
there is nothing good about Sanat Claus...period.



Millions of children are playing with their new toys as we speak, which their parents worked hard for and take no credit, because they let the jolly old guy have it for a few short years.


Exactly ... the let a lie take credit for their effort, instead of teaching their children that those gifts were hearned, they didnt fell off the sky...and than they whine and moan the 'youth' is too materialistic and has no respect for them or how hard money comes by ...well...what can i say ...

thing as this should be thought from a young age, believe me ...i was thought this and i still thought i was wonder woman and jumped off my couhc...and nowadays i still think i could be a super-model ...lol...so obviously 'the lack' of "sainty claws' did not affect my fantasy and capacity of dreaming, if anything it made me much more gratefull for what i have and for what i got in Christmas because i knew my parents took the effort of getting it for me ... not some nonsesical lie.


What is the harm?


if you can't see what the harm is, than keep doing what you're doing... I mean ...you can take a horse to the water but you can't make it drink.

and I'm not calling you a horse ...lol



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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there is nothing good about Sanat Claus...period.


Just because it is your opinion, does not make it right. Because I have a different opinion does not make me right. Because you are not willing to look at it from another perspective other than your own, you are missing out. How can you knock something you have never taken the chance in?

I am finding it hard to believe you can believe that allowing a child to believe in Santa Claus is severly scarring them for life. :shk:



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by chissler


Just because it is your opinion, does not make it right. Because I have a different opinion does not make me right. Because you are not willing to look at it from another perspective other than your own, you are missing out.


....doesnt that go both ways ?

I'm against Santa and you are for it... I believe its harmfull and you dont... You say i presented no proof to my point, I say i did... and thats why this is the RANT section. And you are not whilling to see the damage it can do either....instead of taking a look at what i wrote and really ponder upon it you simply say i presented no points.



How can you knock something you have never taken the chance in?


hmm... the same way you are knocking the fatc that i had no "santa claws" in my childhood, as if tit was air to breath ??
there is no need for it... its just one of those traditions people get addcited too, and everyone is affraid to touch ...almost as sacred cow.



I am finding it hard to believe you can believe that allowing a child to believe in Santa Claus is severly scarring them for life. :shk:


But i do believe that... it starts with the fact that kids look up to their parents, as someone who will never hurt them, and than the first people who lie to them are their parents ...and over what ??? over santa...like thast worth lying to your kids...

and than later on parents demand respect and truth ??? with what basis ... and the same goes to the tooth fairy...lol and the Easter bunny... all silly lies that have nothing to with fantasy.

Super man...spider-man, cinderela, snow white... these are all make beleif stories, and fantasy and children know that, because their parents tell them so... but Santas and company... they are actually presented to them as truth... if you dont see a problem with that ... than you dont... what can I say or do ?

I may not have the best proof in the world to base my opinion, but has anyone ever took upon them to make a stufdy and ask children how they felt when they found out Santa was a lie, and what that made them think about their parenst ? how much it hurt them ? nope... so i guess noone will ever know.



posted on Dec, 26 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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Damn page cannot be displayed... Now I attempt to repost again.

Ok.. so yes no studies to our knowledge have been done on the subject so we have nothing to base our opinions on, and for this they are nothing more than opinions. Your comment about saying their is no good in Santa, Period! is more than an opinion. Your attempt to back your own belief should not be a direct shot at my opinion by saying their is absolutely nothing good about him. How can you prove this?

My intention this whole time was to just share my opinions and experiences which have lead me to have a strong belief on the subject, you have had the same. You claim that I have not opened myself to your side, but I have. I have many family members that were not a believer, they knew everything was from their parents and not Santa. Do you think they appreciated their gifts any more than myself at the age of 4, 5 or any young age for that matter. Kids do not understand that is the point, this is why it is so great for them to have this belief.

You did not believe in Santa and have grown productively, I have believed in Santa and done the same. The belief in this mythical charachter is doing no harm to the children, so those who do believe, leave them be.




posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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They're just kids. They believe in a lot of things that aren't real. The easter bunny, monsters, Santa Clause...these are all part of a kid's life. That's what makes them so great. They're innocent and gullible, and parents love to take advantage of that
. I remember being a kid and believe in Santa... In fact, just yesterday, I was talking to my friend about how Christmas was so much better when we believed in Santa. It also kept me in line a little bit. You have to be good, otherwise he won't bring you anything. I gradually found out...so I never really had any sting of realization. I just sort of figured it out throughout the years, and eventually just knew for sure. I loved believing in Santa.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 01:20 PM
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And that exactly why they should not be lied to, because their just kids... but i have to ask myself ... if most people that have children see no problem in lying to them, why should i bother ??? I shouldn't ...

so ...go ahead ...keep the lies alive...if a child as to learn how to lie, let it be from the best ...their parents.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 03:26 PM
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I think that a parent should be allowed to have fun with their kid while they still can. I mean, honestly, I doubt very many children have ever been emotionally scarred by realizing that Santa isn't real. It's just a fun thing that the parents can go along with, it runs its course, and then it's over. Now if the parents never tell their kids, it would be kind of a different story.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 07:33 PM
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well, there's one thing i heard about santa claus, don't know if it is true though, is that, well, santa claus was a nordic saint and that it is only after the second world war that he got his red and white colors because of... coca cola commercials.It looks like the little fat guy got his image pretty used...
To talk about saint Nicolas, there are countries were he is more important than santa claus. In the netherlands christmas is really a minor celebration day. Every body is celebrating saint Nicholas day like we do christmas.
I should check it out further actually, for the saint Nicolas story. The only thing i remember about him is that he was a turkish saint. i really have to check it further...
Well anyway, to go back to the flow of the discussion, i think people shouldn't need a date on the calendar to be nice to each other or to be generous.
It is maybe arelax to lie to kids but putting a bit of magic in kids imagination has never killed anybody, even if the friends of my dad disguised as santa claus were really scary to me , much more scary than earing that he didn't existed. Imagination and fantasy are the most important things i had in my little girl head and the thing i miss the most since i grew up. Let the kids dream on...
kids are kids and i don't know if raw truth is always the best for a kiddie's head. I wish myself that i could still be able to escape of my head like when i was little,you know , when things were easier and lighter,and everything was giving you inspiration. I don't hate my parents because they told me the tale of santa claus...



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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Exactly, what is the harm in allowing a child to believe? Santa does not have to be a fat guy who brings you presents, I consider it to be almost the spirit of christmas and it brings back them glory days of being a child when I believed this story to be true.



so ...go ahead ...keep the lies alive...if a child as to learn how to lie, let it be from the best ...their parents.


I may be way off here, but its my opinion that you have a personal vendetta against the parents. Is the problem here really with "Santa Claws" or the parents. If something has happened in your days that has caused you to be so against this, I respect your right to keep it personal, but from some of your posts it seems like you are 110% against this, and it seems a parental figure somewhere along the line is to blame.

While most say their is no harm, you are avid in saying this is wrong. Do you have anything you could add to allow us to understand why you are so against this. Saying it is doing damage to the kids is not possible because you can not prove it, So fill us in where possible.

Thanks!




posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by chissler

I may be way off here, but its my opinion that you have a personal vendetta against the parents. Is the problem here really with "Santa Claws" or the parents. If something has happened in your days that has caused you to be so against this, I respect your right to keep it personal, but from some of your posts it seems like you are 110% against this, and it seems a parental figure somewhere along the line is to blame.


no, no, nothing like that...lol..there is no"trauma" involved...its actually against both... for the lie and for perpetuating it.

Obviously parents are allowed to do whatever they want with their kids, thats why there is som much abuse of children.

An of course children will learm how to lie ... but should it be from their parents ?



While most say their is no harm, you are avid in saying this is wrong. Do you have anything you could add to allow us to understand why you are so against this. Saying it is doing damage to the kids is not possible because you can not prove it, So fill us in where possible.

Thanks!



I dont know what else i can add.... The simple principle of Sanat comes from a lie, based on ome truths. Why fill in the kids headswith lies... fantasy is not about lying, its about make -belief, imagination...but Santa is "fed" to children as truth...see the difference?

Like i said the parents are the ones that give their children the first steps in lying. In my opinion that shouldn't happen. Parenst should protect children FROM lies, not feed into them.

Telling kids about Santa, is in my opinion, as cruel as those guys that tricked their friedn into believing he won the lotary, but than he didnt...yeah to them it was just a joke, but will he ever tell them how much their joke hurt them ?
Will any kids ever tell their parents that the Santa trick heart their feelings?? Or will they just shut-up and move on, so they dont hurt their own parents, and eventually ending up doing the same to their own kids ?

I know to most it may sound like a waist of time whinning loosing subject, but to me it is important and very serious.


[edit on 29-12-2005 by BaastetNoir]



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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This seems to be an important issue to yourself, so its validity should not be questioned. I do not see it as important, but I do see that it is to you.

So are you against all so called lies. What about when young children watch cartoons, are we to say that none of these charachters are real? Are we lying to them by allowing them to watch shows that makes them laugh. My question is, where does it end? Is it just santa or anything that is not legit.



posted on Dec, 31 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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It is an interesting debate.

I am a mother of 4 children and have didnt have to tell them about the existence of Santa coz school got in there first. I just carried it on.

I dont teach my children about the birth of Jesus because I am pagan and thats not what christmas is about for us. Its about being together, exchanging gifts and having fun.

This christmas eve, we tracked "Santa" on the Norad website www.noradsanta.org...

It was magical. My youngest two children (8 and 5) who still "believe" were in awe, watching the map, seeing whereabouts he was. When he started to get closer to Europe then they said they wanted to go to bed and go to sleep because he would be here soon. They were asleep within 10 minutes.

My two eldest (12 and 10) dont believe anymore had a bit of a chuckle about it and went to bed too.
Before my 10 year old went up I asked her if Christmas is better when you believe in santa or when you dont. Without hesitation she said when she did believe it was more fun.

I think it is harmless fun. I dont care what the origins are, its what you make of it and how you celebrate that counts.
Keep them believing as long as possible, I say. Your childhood should be full of good memories and christmas, waiting with anticipation for santa should be one of them.
I have some great memories of that as a child and I wouldnt trade them for the world.





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