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Australian Freemasons win lawsuit against 'whistleblowers' site

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posted on Nov, 30 2006 @ 04:21 AM
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It's a pitty suzy jane is not posting anymore.

I can only say that Dock6 was perfectly right:

I can also notice that many freemasons here seem to feel very offended and always keep trying to defend themselves. What is specially annoying are some freemasons who tap on each others shoulders and giving WATS votes to each other and compliments etc.?

Somehow i understand Dock6's point because the need getting confirmed in a group of "like-minded" seems a bit childish for a man. Whereas I also think that there are many people in those groups because they want to improve their will and do something good.

What I really dislike is the way you treated suze. Bashing @ her in Numbers of 3-4 people.. Even if that gaia-Site might not be the most reliable source. There must be a reason why they post something on their Site.. which can only bring them juridic harm.. in fact? I dont see any financial profit or any other positive uses or goals in that site.

You discriminated suze for being angry and emotional on this topic. But you freemasons on the other hand always try to defend the "name of the group" excessively and are therefore being equally emotional. Every 4-5 posts we have a freemason post. Often 2-3 of them and in higher frequency? .....

What I dont welcome either is a couple being ganged by several lawyers and having to fear for their "existence". This only prooves how the money creates justice. And nothing else.

Isn't it important to pursue those possible child-abuses even if some important names are revealed.. or the name of an organisation might suffer reputation for a certain period of time? After all I'd prefer that goal.. rather than being in a group which has a possible minority of child-abusers. To be honest.

You can't deny that several Excerpts of these religious books can easily be "misunderstood". As for instance that groupmembers are always masters.. and all the others are worthless slaves. Disgusting work.. really.

I find it important to come back to the topic. Which is actually these cases of child-abuse right? Is there any more news? Would suze maybe come back?

And one last question: What if a rather confused leader or member of such a group sees his true will in "Child-Abuse".. "Murder"... "Humiliation".. or "Absolute Domination"?



Cug

posted on Nov, 30 2006 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by osram
I can only say that Dock6 was perfectly right:


This thread is 16 pages long right now. What did he say?



I can also notice that many freemasons here seem to feel very offended and always keep trying to defend themselves. What is specially annoying are some freemasons who tap on each others shoulders and giving WATS votes to each other and compliments etc.?


Well even if that is the case.. other than the title of this thread, and the GG's mistaken idea. The O.T.O. is not part of the Masons, and the Masons are not part of the O.T.O.



Somehow i understand Dock6's point because the need getting confirmed in a group of "like-minded" seems a bit childish for a man.


Why shouldn't people who follow the religion of Thelema form groups? Every other religion out there does it.



What I really dislike is the way you treated suze. Bashing @ her in Numbers of 3-4 people.. Even if that gaia-Site might not be the most reliable source. There must be a reason why they post something on their Site.. which can only bring them juridic harm.. in fact? I dont see any financial profit or any other positive uses or goals in that site.


Who is "you"? Why would they post that stuff? hate and fear of what they don't understand.



You discriminated suze for being angry and emotional on this topic. But you freemasons on the other hand always try to defend the "name of the group" excessively and are therefore being equally emotional.


What would you do if someone was basically calling you a pedophile and a murderer? That is what she did to me.



What I dont welcome either is a couple being ganged by several lawyers and having to fear for their "existence". This only prooves how the money creates justice. And nothing else.


Money creates justice? How does a group that can't afford to buy a building for it's meetings have money? (and only 12 local bodies even have a 24/7 rental of a space)



Isn't it important to pursue those possible child-abuses even if some important names are revealed.. or the name of an organisation might suffer reputation for a certain period of time? After all I'd prefer that goal.. rather than being in a group which has a possible minority of child-abusers. To be honest.


So you would be happy if someone started claiming that the Swiss were all child abusers?



You can't deny that several Excerpts of these religious books can easily be "misunderstood".


Well that's obvious. But really how can you expect to understand something by reading excerpts? Especially with the part in question is further clarified later in the text?



As for instance that groupmembers are always masters.. and all the others are worthless slaves. Disgusting work.. really.


Ah! An excellent case of misunderstanding, along with a missquote.


And one last question: What if a rather confused leader or member of such a group sees his true will in "Child-Abuse"


It's called expulsion and jail time, and if they do it to one of my friends/family well lets say it's not going to be nice.

But you cant play what ifs with peoples lives.



posted on Nov, 30 2006 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by Cug
This thread is 16 pages long right now. What did he say?


Originally posted by Dock6

It's been a while, but last time I browsed the Gaiaguys site, I'm sure I read that the OTO were attempting to sue Gaiaguys for publishing information contained within OTO's own introductory blurb ! It made OTO sound hysterical, panicked and non too organised, as well as making them appear ridiculous.

Certainly, there will be a lot of old men in nursing homes wishing they'd used their time on earth a whole lot better than to fraternise with those of similarly bestial and perverted tendencies while they were all young.

Age old wisdom advises that those who play with fire will one day get burned. No group, association, cult or religion possesses the power to safeguard its members indefinitely. Those members, once their usefulness is gone, are abandoned not only by their peers, but also by the lusts which once drove them. Burnt out and friendless, they retreat to beige cardigans and slippers and spend their long days attempting to deny or forget the atrocities they committed in the past. Their nights are a torment of anticipation as they await their discharge by Life. Their earlier confidence in their own invincibility returns to mock them; quite often they attempt to return to the safety of their childhood religion, but it's futile because they contemptuously closed those doors long ago. They die screaming, though often unheard. Nurses report that when their lifeless bodies are discovered, their features are contorted in horror. Their scratchy, terrified. deathbed confessions are dismissed for the worthlessness they are. It's to be doubted that Crowley's in a position to grant them any comfort.

That there is organised pedophilia in the Nothern Rivers seems beyond doubt. In fact, there are some worried worthies there right now, apparently. Seems one of their procurers from the 80's and 90's found God, underwent exorcism and is now fighting belatedly on behalf of all those runaways and homeless children lured into supposedly 'benevolent' children's services back then. The ex-procurer apparently possesses photos, recordings, names and the private addresses of the perverts in whose homes the procurer was made welcome, back in the days when harvesting vulnerable children for the enjoyment of perverts was so easy and profitable. Personal retribution is apparently the-go now, seeing the autorities have proven themselves so corrupt. Brings to mind the slaughtered high profile individuals on the south coast of NSW and the individual who found himself at the business end of a chair leg on the Gold Coast some years ago. For the children who survived and lived to tell the story (and/or members of their families), revenge is sweet, apparently.

Like most, I have no particular respect for men who need to belong to secret societies in order they may perpetuate their own arrested development and other infantile preoccupations. A man is as a man does and that's how he's judged by What Matters just a few short years down the track. The rank and file members of all organisations are simply the drudges; the drones; the base of pyramid. They never get even half-close to the apex; they simply try to salve their conscience and ego by pretending. Those at the apex despise the lumps which make up the base of the pyramid. In fact, they despise them even more than does the rest of society. But, you know, to each his own ...



posted on Nov, 30 2006 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by Cug
Well even if that is the case.. other than the title of this thread, and the GG's mistaken idea. The O.T.O. is not part of the Masons, and the Masons are not part of the O.T.O.

Yeah i have perfectly realized that the O.T.O. is not exactly the same as freemasonry. And i doubt that this is really important if we are discussing possible cases of child-abuse actually.



Why shouldn't people who follow the religion of Thelema form groups? Every other religion out there does it.

Well don't ask me. Because I am not religious. The only "religion" I know is music. (Detroit/Techno Philosophy).

The point is not about creating groups or not.. and i dont want to go into all of that religious talk either. I don't have a very positive opinion about it therefore this would lead to nowhere.

What Dock6 criticised was rather the behavior of people who wish to become a member of a specific group, religion.. or whatsoever.



Who is "you"? Why would they post that stuff? hate and fear of what they don't understand.

You? I don't know as you said the topic is 16 pages long. I would not be surprised if you were one of them. Why would someone always respond in a negative manner towards suzy ryan? Hate or Fear of what her intentions are? I don't understand why many in here kept picking on her for maybe using the wrong definition or being angry.. showing emotions.. as apparently she seems to be pretty active and this topic concerns her alot.

Why is defending free-masonry or O.T.O. more important than thoroughly investigating indications of child abuse?

After all it's not the freemasons or OTO who got sued for 30000 australian dollars.

And who defends the children? If they really became victims of child abuse??

Why can't you just step over her emotionally-influenced "words".. Rather than becoming emotionally related to freemasonry or OTO yourselves.. and defend the "grand whatever" at all costs?



What would you do if someone was basically calling you a pedophile and a murderer? That is what she did to me.



So you would be happy if someone started claiming that the Swiss were all child abusers?


Well if you know it is absolutely not true.. wheres the problem? I really doubt that she said "Cug is a child-abuser!"

And that's exactly the point. You defend some greater cause at all costs. At least it seems so. If someone calls all swiss child abusers I dont care. Because 1. I'm no patriot. 2. I know it's not true. 3. I don't give a damn about national "generalizations".
It's often a very emotionally blinded statement when generalizations are made.



Money creates justice? How does a group that can't afford to buy a building for it's meetings have money? (and only 12 local bodies even have a 24/7 rental of a space)

Well i guess a group of people certainly has more money than a single couple. Or are you trying to picture OTO as a wellfare charity group of unemployed people who are trying to realize some sort of re-integration project here?

I really dont know: Maybe they have a lawyer or several lawyers who loves OTO religion? Or maybe they have other connections or important members?

Possibly you can tell us how many members OTO has or what their possibilities/influences look like?

What do you mean by only 12 local bodies even have a 24/7 rental of a space? Because that sounds like alot to me. I have been in socalled "groups" which couldnt even afford one 24/7 rental of a space. Or am i misunderstanding something?



Well that's obvious. But really how can you expect to understand something by reading excerpts? Especially with the part in question is further clarified later in the text?

I really can only say that some contents of the OTO book of law sounds very "evil".
And why would that mentor OTO guy (which is only another human.. i know) post pictures of himself with a Satanic book.. picking exactly the same pose as seen on the Logo of some Child-Charity organization?

But I don't think that we are here to understand OTO-Philosophy. I won't dedicate alot of time to perfectly understand it. And even if i did understand it. Understanding of the OTO-Philosophy, or the Philosophy itself would be no excuse IF there really IS a case of child-abuse.

Do you understand what i want to say? Don't take this as an offense against OTO or freemasonry. Although some things might seem pretty incomprehensible, evil or simply wierd to non-members. I am not saying that isn't good at all or absolutely bad. I simply don't know. I have only seen bits and pieces. Some of them good.. some bad. I can perfectly imagine why some people value some of the positive philosophies of freemasonry, for instance.



Ah! An excellent case of misunderstanding, along with a missquote.

As i said. I dont care alot about OTO, you know? No offense meant. It was neither my intention to perfectly quote that excerpt. You absolutely know what I am refering to.

But maybe you can explain why those negative-seeming excerpts should be interpreted as something good? And i am not talking about cannibalism here. Which someone refered to regarding christian religion.



It's called expulsion and jail time, and if they do it to one of my friends/family well lets say it's not going to be nice.

And what if they do it to someone's elses family or loved ones? Because you have to know. I don't have any family.. and I dont consider myself as someone having many friends at all.

But i still care about justice. And i still care and feel compassion if injustice happens. Specially if it happens to children. No matter if I know them or not.



But you cant play what ifs with peoples lives.

Yep. That's actually not what i want to do. What i want to know is if there really is child-abuse within that area or possibly those circles; And I'm not talking about something collective here.. I'm sure it would.. if at all.. only be one or some individuals of that group.

Right?

And what I don't want to play at all is: "What if OTO-Philosophy is not bad."

Because i frankly don't care. The circumstances, factors and involved individuals is such a complicated topic you could talk about possibly negative results for ages. Specially if we were (!) talking about some grand belief or religion.


Cug

posted on Nov, 30 2006 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by osram

Yeah i have perfectly realized that the O.T.O. is not exactly the same as freemasonry. And i doubt that this is really important if we are discussing possible cases of child-abuse actually.


Well why did you mention them at all?




Why is defending free-masonry or O.T.O. more important than thoroughly investigating indications of child abuse?


OK first of all thoroughly investigating? have you seen that site? it's not thoroughly investigating it's just throwing out wild accusations with absolute nothing to back them up.



After all it's not the freemasons or OTO who got sued for 30000 australian dollars.


The GG were not sued for $30,000 AU The were sued for what is basically hate speech. If they were honerable people who would admit to not having any proof they would not of had a judgment against them.



And who defends the children? If they really became victims of child abuse??


What children? the children who were not abused by the OTO?



Why can't you just step over her emotionally-influenced "words".. Rather than becoming emotionally related to freemasonry or OTO yourselves.. and defend the "grand whatever" at all costs?


Can't you step over the "emotionally-influenced" word child abuse and realize what kind of damage that could do to an Innocent person? Oh you belong to that child abusing group.. your fired, evicted etc.. Remember the issue is not "may of" they claim the O.T.O. was an organized group of child molesters, and by extention so are all Thelemites.



Well if you know it is absolutely not true.. wheres the problem? I really doubt that she said "Cug is a child-abuser!"


On the first page, if the shoe fits



Well i guess a group of people certainly has more money than a single couple. Or are you trying to picture OTO as a wellfare charity group of unemployed people who are trying to realize some sort of re-integration project here?


You don't know it but that's kinda funny really. There has been many posts in OTO land about how the OTO should stop being a charity can make local dues mandatory.
But anyway money had nothing to do with it. The case was handled pro-bono by what seems to be a civil liberties group (see next post)



Possibly you can tell us how many members OTO has or what their possibilities/influences look like?


The O.T.O. has around 2,500-3,000 members at last count. (some older documents say it's around 4000) And I can't think of one influencing member (for people outside the O.T.O. or Thelema) The head of the O.T.O. is/was in a band (Current93), and there is a porn star who is in the O.T.O. But most members are just normal people holding normal jobs. The older members tend to be hippies, and the younger members are on the Goth/punk side but even that is a stretch.



What do you mean by only 12 local bodies even have a 24/7 rental of a space? Because that sounds like alot to me. I have been in socalled "groups" which couldnt even afford one 24/7 rental of a space. Or am i misunderstanding something?


Does that sound like a group that can control the government? That is how the gg say they have not been caught.



I really can only say that some contents of the OTO book of law sounds very "evil".
And why would that mentor OTO guy (which is only another human.. i know) post pictures of himself with a Satanic book.. picking exactly the same pose as seen on the Logo of some Child-Charity organization?


Huh? who is "that mentor OTO guy"? I really can't comment on that without more info.



But I don't think that we are here to understand OTO-Philosophy. I won't dedicate alot of time to perfectly understand it. And even if i did understand it. Understanding of the OTO-Philosophy, or the Philosophy itself would be no excuse IF there really IS a case of child-abuse.


Not true, this issue is all about "OTO-Philosophy" that is their only "evidence" of child abuse.



Do you understand what i want to say?


Honestly no I don't. You seem to think accusations of child abuse is no big deal. Do you understand what being called a child abuser can do to someone? Your kids can be taken away, you can lose your job and unable to find another, you can be forced to move if you happen to live near a school. This is really not something to be taken lightly.



Ah! An excellent case of misunderstanding, along with a missquote.

As i said. I dont care alot about OTO, you know? No offense meant. It was neither my intention to perfectly quote that excerpt. You absolutely know what I am refering to.



But maybe you can explain why those negative-seeming excerpts should be interpreted as something good?


Well you sorta mentioned "the slaves shall serve" First thing to remember is this is from an esoteric text so things can have many meanings. In this case you could say that those who do not stand up for their freedom(slaves) do not deserve it (so they will serve). You could also take it as a dig at other religions. Those that serve their gods are slaves to their god. But if you read a bit more you will also see that it says you must love the "slaves" because they may be kings in disguise.


Cug

posted on Nov, 30 2006 @ 04:34 PM
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Some updates

The settlement with Dr. Michaelson
www.otoaustralia.org.au...

And a press release.
www.otoaustralia.org.au...



posted on Dec, 1 2006 @ 01:51 AM
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CUG: sorry, sorry! I'm new at this.
I was actually trying to reply to tkmelb's post of 21-11-06.
Will work to improve my 'navigation' skills around this forum, & apologise for the confusion.
Thanks for your input - very worthwhile.



posted on Dec, 8 2006 @ 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by Richard67
I was actually trying to reply to tkmelb's post of 21-11-06.


When i worked for the nine network, I heard a few stories about moonface, this was going back 12 years ago. So on the basis of that plus when you follow up her story and research it a bit then who knows maybe she is on to something.

I don't believe network 10, whom i have also worked for, are producing child porn, however that is not to say some high ups are not using the facilities to do so.

One only has to read the many threads on this website to realise we live in a pretty f..ed up world and nothing is out of the realms of possibility.



posted on Dec, 8 2006 @ 02:07 PM
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Very true. I couldn't have said it better. Nothing is impossible. They could have been producing kiddie porn. Stranger things have happened, believer it or not.



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 03:08 AM
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I'm sorry but that's just not good enough.
"Heard a few stories"?
"Nothing's impossible"?
The gaiaguys nuts are posting photographs of high profile politicians & celebrities (accessible to anyone on the planet) and labelling them paedophiles and satanic ritual abusers - and you're saying "well...could be"? As CUG says above, put yourself on that list and imagine how you'd feel.
Even more important, I think, are the plights of actual victims of this type of abuse, who deserve a lot better than to have the issue tossed around some insane website amid UFOs and crop circles...
And there's no logic or reason with the pair behind gaiaguys - the more people, govt dept.s and courts refute their allegations, the more they believe they're right. Anyone who doesn't buy it just becomes part of the "masonic conspiracy".



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 03:16 AM
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Have a brief look - or even better, a close look - at the page linked below, and see how seriously you can regard anything else from the site:

www.gaiaguys.net...



[edit on 10-12-2006 by Richard67]



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 04:01 AM
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Sorry to burst your bubble Richard, but i originally found the article online HERE, not at the giaguys site. I believe that Billy Meier is a total hoax. That in itself shows how seriously I take the giaguys as their site is practically a shrine to him. However Dr Michaelson, that is totally different. From all I have read about her she does in no way seem like a kook.

The second place I found it was here, in this very thread. I found the giaguys site from here.

So to infer that I must be crazy for following the giaguys is a total mistake on your behalf.

Just one question though, If the gaiguys site had an article on Hitlers hatred of the jews would that make it no longer true and a lie?

edit spell



[edit on 10/12/06 by tkmelb]

[edit on 10/12/06 by tkmelb]



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 04:20 AM
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Originally posted by Richard67
I'm sorry but that's just not good enough.
"Heard a few stories"?
"Nothing's impossible"?
The gaiaguys nuts are posting photographs of high profile politicians & celebrities (accessible to anyone on the planet) and labelling them paedophiles and satanic ritual abusers - and you're saying "well...could be"? As CUG says above, put yourself on that list and imagine how you'd feel.
Even more important, I think, are the plights of actual victims of this type of abuse, who deserve a lot better than to have the issue tossed around some insane website amid UFOs and crop circles...
And there's no logic or reason with the pair behind gaiaguys - the more people, govt dept.s and courts refute their allegations, the more they believe they're right. Anyone who doesn't buy it just becomes part of the "masonic conspiracy".


Well the people who told me at nine were certainly in the know.... I certainly would take their word over your opinion, sorry.

Victoria's former leader once sued the Age for showing a doctored pic of him naked, I for the life of me can't see why he doesn't sue the giaguys, for having a lot worse.

Why the Victoiran government don't do anything about the accusations certainly worries me. the Accusations of Dr Michaelson not the gaiguys.

Speaking of conspiracies I find it quite incredible that this is the only thread you have posted on........If i didn't know better I would conclude that richard67 is another account for someone that already posts here.....(I'm not talking about CUG either.)



HERE is an excellent article on Dr Michaelson

[edit on 10/12/06 by tkmelb]



posted on Dec, 10 2006 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by tkmelb
Sorry to burst your bubble Richard, but i originally found the article online HERE, not at the giaguys site. I believe that Billy Meier is a total hoax. That in itself shows how seriously I take the giaguys as their site is practically a shrine to him. However Dr Michaelson, that is totally different. From all I have read about her she does in no way seem like a kook.


I don't think she's hoaxing either, but I do think she is guilty of less than scholarly research on the subject.

The thing about O.T.O. here is that no one in the organization has been accused of violating the law by any alleged victims. It just all boils down to Gaiaguys and a few others being offended by the Thelemic Scriptures. No supposed victim has come forward saying "Hey, O.T.O. did this to me". It's that these folks point out such and such a verse in the Thelemic holy writings and say, "Wow, these people must be criminals".

In reality, Crowley did not advocate the abuse of anyone, except maybe for idiots whom he considered deserved it.



posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 01:25 AM
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"Well the people who told me at nine were certainly in the know.... I certainly would take their word over your opinion, sorry."

You illustrate my point perfectly - you heard something from someone you consider 'in the know', who heard it from the tea lady, who heard it from... that's called 'gossip' and 'rumour'. My only opinion on this matter is that these sort of allegations need solid proof - to go spreading baseless allegations is irresponsible and benefits no-one; in fact it could probably work against any perpetrators being brought to justice.

"Why not sue?"
Well, gaiaguys are not The Age. They're broke, so forget about damages. And it doesn't stop them, they just go offshore. And if a high profile personality were to sue, it would just give them more exposure.



posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 04:43 AM
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So how did you find out Howard was PM? oh that is right somebody ie the media told you so. So if someone i trust told me something that they in no way gained personally from why should I not believe them?

If somebody was calling me a pedo publically and had photos I would being everything in my power to stop them. You don't only have to sue for money, you can sue for public apology have them admit they lied and have no proof.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 01:08 AM
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"So how did you find out Howard was PM? oh that is right somebody ie the media told you so. So if someone i trust told me something that they in no way gained personally from why should I not believe them? "

There's a big difference between a thoroughly researched piece of journalism, that an editor chooses to publish, and that a reporter puts his name to and stands behind, versus idle gossip around the water cooler. In fact, they are usually exact opposites.
I really think you need to stop asking "why shouldn't I believe this" and start asking "why should I?"

Because opinions are like arseholes - everybody's got one.

This thread seems to have exhausted itself of intelligent debate - of which there has been plenty - so I'm out of here. Adios



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 01:17 AM
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Originally posted by Richard67

There's a big difference between a thoroughly researched piece of journalism, that an editor chooses to publish, and that a reporter puts his name to and stands behind, versus idle gossip around the water cooler. In fact, they are usually exact opposites.
I really think you need to stop asking "why shouldn't I believe this" and start asking "why should I?"

Because opinions are like arseholes - everybody's got one.

This thread seems to have exhausted itself of intelligent debate - of which there has been plenty - so I'm out of here. Adios


A debate you have added nothing to. So i guess you will be only using your other login name/s now that you are not posting in this thread?

I am not going to name names but my "source" is more reliable than the media at large who won't print or run a story that may affect their advertisers and sponsors.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by tkmelb
Just one question though, If the gaiguys site had an article on Hitlers hatred of the jews would that make it no longer true and a lie?


This is a fallacy, and not even a good one. Hitlers hatred towards jews is factual, it has been proven in the past by large amounts of evidence.

The things written on the gaiaguys website are at best assumptions, and when someone doesn't agree with them they're accused of being part of the conspiracy.

Reina Michaelson has now admitted in a personal statement that her accusations towards the OTO are just assumptions, without any form of valid evidence.

Everything there is to say about this case has already been said by Masonic Light:


Originally posted by Masonic Light
The thing about O.T.O. here is that no one in the organization has been accused of violating the law by any alleged victims. It just all boils down to Gaiaguys and a few others being offended by the Thelemic Scriptures. No supposed victim has come forward saying "Hey, O.T.O. did this to me". It's that these folks point out such and such a verse in the Thelemic holy writings and say, "Wow, these people must be criminals".



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by Nyghtfall

Originally posted by tkmelb
Just one question though, If the gaiguys site had an article on Hitlers hatred of the jews would that make it no longer true and a lie?


This is a fallacy, and not even a good one. Hitlers hatred towards jews is factual, it has been proven in the past by large amounts of evidence.

The things written on the gaiaguys website are at best assumptions, and when someone doesn't agree with them they're accused of being part of the conspiracy.

Reina Michaelson has now admitted in a personal statement that her accusations towards the OTO are just assumptions, without any form of valid evidence.

Everything there is to say about this case has already been said by Masonic Light:


You have totally missed my point. I was saying that just because something appears on their site doesn't mean it is not true. There have been many newspaper articles on this as well.

I have stated in this thread already that I don't think the OTO was involved. But do think that there is truth to Dr Michaelsons other claims.

Once again speaking of conspiracies I am continually amazed how many people post on this thread with out posting on other threads. Even more amazed that people who only sign up are so versed on the functions of the forum. Gee if i didn't know better I would think it is all the same person cowardly hiding behind different usernames.


Edited to fix quote box.....I guess i am not as proficient as these new members???


[edit on 14/12/06 by tkmelb]

[edit on 14/12/06 by tkmelb]









 
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