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Muslim's Urged to kill Westerners.

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posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by talon565
What I do find interesting is how the west can remove a leader for fake weapons of mass distruction, and shrug your sholders and grin but cant do the same for a government starving an entire population.


Quite simple. Whether or not there were WMD's ( every Western intelligence Agency expected to find them ) isn't really the point. The point is, the US felt threatened by Saddam and decided to act.
What threat is their from a starving country to the West.....none. The thing is the US is sick of providing the bulk of the aid and the military whilst the Europeans ( exception UK ) do absolutely nothing.
Your question should be why aren't they doing anything, especially since they were the former colonial rulers and the ones who imposed their will in these places - Africa and Asia.




posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 08:33 AM
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Think about the past, the west was supporting most of the bad guys of today.

If I gave you a new honda so you could show up the guy across the street and then gave the guy across the street a new porshe, would you feel burnt.

im not defending sadam or any other nut, Im just saying, the west chose to play in everones affairs for the wests own interests.

I think some of the EU countries have the right idea, look after your own and leave the world affairs to the UN, unfortunatley some countries like to play texas ranger, and thats where the problems boil over.

When you blow up some guys house with a tank, hes going to be pissed and hes going to want to do it to you right back.

As mentioned I am an Australian, male, 36, white, 2 kids normal life, surely you can see the hate that grows in people who have nothing and they see another countries soilders kicking in their door.

Would you be OK with it!



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 08:42 AM
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When was the last time you talked to a Muslim woman about her rights? I have Muslims in my family I listen to what they believe in for those who have not had close contact with Muslims the women run the family like in every other social group on the planet.


Don’t listen to the propaganda forces in the western world.


If you want to free women for the chains of religion then start at home Catholic women cannot lead the prayers. Southern Baptist women must "honor thy husband" and don’t get me started on the Mormon Church with polygamy. The issue of women right was really a reason to try to change society then you would see movement here in the western world.

There are the same chapters or books in the Q as in the B the only thing I see that the Q teaches is to the state of the mouthpieces of god as prophets instead of the Son of God and disciples. Most of the problems most westerners have with the Q are not even with the religion it is with the culture of the areas. In a world where I can turn on the TV and see 25 murders and death before I go to sleep and see infidelity as a break in boredom lets me know we should not be worried about Muslims. We should be more worried about ourselves. Christians mostly do everyday crimes where I live. And major crimes done by born again Christians such a GW Bush.


As to the killing of westerners... You would want to kill if someone was destroying your property, kill your relatives, and poison your landscape with once working sewer, water, and electricity. Burn you museums, loot your banks, rape your women, and tell you your god is the devil and pee on your sacred text.
all of these things have been seen in the new war on terror

I propose if that happened to you...

You yourself would be in a killing mood. Remember there has been Crusades to the Holy Land many times in the past this is no different that when they did it in they middle ages. And if you do not believe me look in the British Museum There are still items that the westerners decided to keep. I see this as a westerner we all have to account for our mistakes including current Christians, and Muslims.

I do not condone the killing of “innocent” people but keep in mind what does innocent means.


[edit on 12/09-2005 by BlackThought]



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 08:49 AM
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I agree with you my friend, I would not like it one bit, some people forget this stuff actually happens and is not a TV series.

If tanks rolled down my street from another country I would vow revenge.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
Remember there has been Crusades to the Holy Land many times in the past this is no different that when they did it in they middle ages.

Actually, there is no comparing 'now' to 'then', especially when attempting to pit today with yesterday: the Crusades and Jihads of the past have no relationship to what is transpiring today. As par, spinning and hyping will have some believing otherwise. The only things in common are region, the Middle East, and combatants, Western and Islamic.





And if you do not believe me look in the British Museum There are still items that the westerners decided to keep. I see this as a westerner we all have to account for our mistakes including current Christians, and Muslims.

And? I can go to a number of Islamic museum in the Middle East and see "items" that the Islamic Muslims decided to keep in their conquests of Europe.





I do not condone the killing of “innocent” people but keep in mind what does innocent means.

Are those civilain populaces that are blatantly targeted and killed in suicide bombings innocent, or is that defined by Western or Islamic perspectives?







seekerof



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
When was the last time you talked to a Muslim woman about her rights? I have Muslims in my family I listen to what they believe in for those who have not had close contact with Muslims the women run the family like in every other social group on the planet.


Don’t listen to the propaganda forces in the western world.


Oh you mean like in Saudi Arabia last year where several school girls were killed in a fire because the Religous police stoppped the firemen from rescuing them. Why .... because they weren't covered and god forbid a man a to see them

Who needs propaganda when the truth is quite efective.
You want the West to respect you and leave you alone, then keep your house in order, move with the times become civilised.



If you want to free women for the chains of religion then start at home Catholic women cannot lead the prayers. Southern Baptist women must "honor thy husband" and don’t get me started on the Mormon Church with polygamy. The issue of women right was really a reason to try to change society then you would see movement here in the western world.


You see in the West religion doesn't dictate the way we are governed. Women aren't held back by some ridiculously backward religous laws. Simple as that. The Church is a private institution it doesn't govern the country. However in Arab countries many laws are based on religion.

BTW. I don't believe in religion and think it's the equivalent of cavemen worshipping deities because they couldn't explain things.
Religionh is backward and a hindrance to the progress of the human race. All humans.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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This sort of crap wouldnt be required if ALL citizens of each religion where
to go back to its origins and RELOCATE there because the world
just CANT mix together.




posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 09:22 AM
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Do me a favor have you talked to Muslim women? They do talk about their experience as the fire I could talk about Christian Science monitors who let their family members die because they do not believe in modern medicine. My house in order of my beliefs and customs. They may not be your order so you will just have to accept it west’e man. There are other cultures beside the ones out of Europe and America.


Muslims and Christian have been fighting in there since the early modern human history. What was the bombing of the wedding party in Afghanistan? Were they not innocent? What was the estimation of civilians killed in Iraq so far I bet it is more that 9/11 and military dead?

I really don’t think most of the people in America don’t really understand death being outside you door on a daily bases. Your thinking changes to survival. Isn’t that why the founders put a provision in about guns, and militia?


Yes they do dictate because the church is based in the community. For instance in the 10 commandments on the court grounds episode.


[edit on 12/09-2005 by BlackThought]



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
Do me a favor have you talked to Muslim women? They do talk about their experience as the fire I could talk about Christian Science monitors who let their family members die because they do not believe in modern medicine. My house in order of my beliefs and customs. They may not be your order so you will just have to accept it west’e man. There are other cultures beside the ones out of Europe and America.


You completely missed the point. Christian Scientists can do what they want that is their choice ( in a free society ), they aren't hindered by law. In Saudi Arabia those poor little girls wanted to get out of a burning building. The POLICE wouldn't let the firefighters go in and wouldn't let the girls out. I hope you can see the difference, if not then




Muslims and Christian have been fighting in there since the early modern human history. What was the bombing of the wedding party in Afghanistan? Were they not innocent? What was the estimation of civilians killed in Iraq so far I bet it is more that 9/11 and military dead?


Well in Iraq, the Iraqi's seem to be doing a good job of killing themsleves. It isn't the Americans planting car bombs is it.



I really don’t think most of the people in America don’t really understand death being outside you door on a daily bases.


Oh and you do ? Are you living in Iraq ? If not then you can't claim to be any less ignorant than what you claim Americans to be.



Yes they do dictate because the church is based in the community. For instance in the 10 commandments on the court grounds episode.


Ahem, it is a person chioce if they want to be involved in the Curch or not, there is no law saying they have to be and a hell of alot aren't.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 09:44 AM
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So guess that is why there are court cases involving neglect of children when their choice was the belief that god would spare their life. If they were so free then they would not be there.

There was a body count before the “insurgency” You did not address the innocents killed by Americans. Most of the times not losing any sleep over it either.

There are areas in America that are worst than “third world countries” When was the last time you went to Brooklyn, or New Orleans?

Your church in The court is not a choice.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 10:07 AM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
So guess that is why there are court cases involving neglect of children when their choice was the belief that god would spare their life. If they were so free then they would not be there.


There maybe court cases ( I'm taking your word for it ) because in the west an individual has rights, the sanctity of life is very important here and so is religious freedom. Therefore a balance has to be found through the courts - what's best fore the individual. The beauty of the Western legal system.
Far different than in Saudi, where the police might as well have put a gun to the girls heads and executed them. I don't think the Saudi Religious police thought Allah would spare the girls lives, do you
It was basically state sponsored murder, no less.



There are areas in America that are worst than “third world countries” When was the last time you went to Brooklyn, or New Orleans?


LOL, have you ever been to a 3rd world country or a re you just quoting sensationalist headlines. Because if you had, you realise that is a stupid statement.
I also believe that NO was hit by one of the worst natural disasters in US history



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 10:23 AM
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You still did not answer the question on the innocents killed by American Troops and bombs.
At least i get to see the troops coming out of Walter Reed to talk to them. I see in their eyes what they want to forget.

You need to get out more America is a dangerous place if you the right person in the wrong place. such as a black in klan country, gang mamber in the wrong place(bullets have no name), gay in christian right coutry, or a hapless person at a atm machine.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
You still did not answer the question on the innocents killed by American Troops and bombs.
At least i get to see the troops coming out of Walter Reed to talk to them. I see in their eyes what they want to forget.


What do you want me to say ? We both know it happens - however I wouldn't say the US targets civilians just because they can, far different from what the insurgents do. They want to kill civilians.



You need to get out more America is a dangerous place if you the right person in the wrong place. such as a black in klan country, gang mamber in the wrong place(bullets have no name), gay in christian right coutry, or a hapless person at a atm machine.


All countries have dangerous places America is no different, so what ?
BTW. I don't live in America, I live in Australia.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Sorry I forgot you live...There. Yes they do target civilians. They targeted Al-Gazira correspondence at least three. One on the air. Also blew up two of their transmission towers after the pentagon was notified at least twice by the director.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 11:51 AM
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however I wouldn't say the US targets civilians just because they can, far different from what the insurgents do. They want to kill civilians.

If the Iraq war saved more lives than would have been had they left it alone, then perhaps it is acceptable, however you would be going into the absolute or relative debate there. However, if the aims behind the war were not noble, ie oil, then I have to say that life is life is life. Each side is as bad as the other.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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Here's something Muslims won't tell you but which need's to be revealed for a proper understanding of their views. Muslims do not give all sections of the Quran equal standing, Most Imams believe in a "progressive" revelation of the Quran (ie: Some parts are more true than others since they were supposedly revealed to Muhammed with a greater degree of divine guidance than others). What this means to us is simple- the more virulent sections of Quranic theology which prescribe all those nasty things we here about are usually at the more progressive latter half of the Quran. The more tolerant bits are in the first half which is held as "less true". Most Qurans have in fact a "guide" which tell's which parts are to be given a greater degree of importance. So we have two distinct messages in it, but the more virulent message is the one given greater credence.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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Yes Nakash the same as in the bible. There are a fire and brimstone sections that the fundamentalist use in their sermons (also this is what burned the heretics as witches in Salem) and the other sections of more benevolent forgiving god. (Which they use to pacify the slaves.) Each teacher is alike in religions they tell you what they think pertains to your life. Unfortunately it seems more like control than everlasting life. If you actually read the text then discuss it with your religious teacher sometimes they cut you short.

For instance
Thou shall not kill

But fundamentalists on both sides say it is ok to kill for justice of a crime or wartime. When I last looked I did not see any exceptions.

Muslim's urged to kill Westerners. If you start here then you are on page 5 and have not read pages 1-4 they might have some events that might change your view on who said it and why.


Me I am tired of hearing how the religious right is correct in wanting to smash the Muslims into dust. I wish I could be as concerned about Islam as I am about Christianity but in my own life and the history of people in the US. They lynched, killed, assassinated and wrongly jailed many black people and these people were supposed to be Christian. Hypocrites that is why I don’t believe what government says until I talk to some people from the region and learn the history of the conflict.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by vincere7
Yes women are not allowed to be on the same page as men in Islam. They are able to study the Quran but cannot speak in public of text, or discuss such as this is left to men. Also the Quran is one body of text, clerics of course are not going to allow all readings to be available, thus - learn from your husband or study what is available. If you were to compare say the Bible or a ministry, a minster like Joyce Meyer does not exist in Islam. Women are not allowed to teach on text or communicate such. They can write books about Islam, but not digress text. I can say without a doubt most Muslim women could probably learn more on the internet about text than locally, from family, or the local mosque. But then again she could not voice her findings or discuss such,


I think we should know why women arent on the same page as men.

The reason isnt that they (women) are less important than men, but because they have a different nature other than men.

For example, why


"They are able to study the Quran but cannot speak in public of text
", because women's voice is tempting, men's hearts can be moved by listening their voices reading Qur'an in a beautiful way. Qur'an isnt like the Bible, it is something like rhymed verses.





"Women are not allowed to teach on text or communicate such."


This is not true. Muslim Women are allowed to teach both women and men in a respectable way. Sheik Malik was certified to say Fatwas (statements by sheikh about what is allowed and what is not) by a woman! Yes, a woman. He is one of the biggest sheikhs in Islam.




"They can write books about Islam, but not digress text. I can say without a doubt most Muslim women could probably learn more on the internet about text than locally, from family, or the local mosque. But then again she could not voice her findings or discuss such, "


I wonder if you are a Muslim or not, but what you say is totally incorrect! I'm a woman, and born Muslim, and i write books and discuss matters about Islam freely and teach others about it. Prophet Muhammad's wives used to discuss matters of Islam and its rules with other men.

Maybe you will be surprised to know that the minister of Finance at the time of Prophet Muhammad was a woman!

I hope that you read well about ISlam before you spread falsehoods about it.

Peace.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
So guess that is why there are court cases involving neglect of children when their choice was the belief that god would spare their life. If they were so free then they would not be there.


Actually, in cases where the childrens' lives are in danger, they are usually taken away from the insane parents and treated medically.

Here, it wouldn't matter if the girls were buck naked, there would be no stopping police and firefighters from rescuing them. If some religious whack jobs were trying to stop them, they'd get the crap kicked out of them. Just as should have happened in that cess pool we call an "ally", Saudi Arabia.


You say there are just different cultures, that's cool, but when those cultures are so backwards and cause so much suffering and death even in times of peace, decent people should step in. This planet belongs to all of us, and we have the right NOT to want that BS going on here. That goes for ALL backwards religions and cultures. If those who wish to remain savage, primitive cave dwellers want war in order to maintain and spread their back a$$ward lifestyles, fine, they've got it. Isn't religion lovely? Too bad people just can't worship a higher power without taking it to all kinds of ridiculous extremes.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
Me I am tired of hearing how the religious right is correct in wanting to smash the Muslims into dust. I wish I could be as concerned about Islam as I am about Christianity but in my own life and the history of people in the US. They lynched, killed, assassinated and wrongly jailed many black people and these people were supposed to be Christian. Hypocrites that is why I don’t believe what government says until I talk to some people from the region and learn the history of the conflict.


I can't speak for the religious right, I think they're nuts too. Just about every civilization as a shady past, but those things do not occur any more. The KKK is viewed as a small group of drunk, ignorant hillbillies now. We have taken steps to correct that issue here. How about women in Islam who cheat on their husbands? People throw rocks at them til they DIE? A little extreme for somebody who just acted on human nature.



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