WAR: Bush Allowed NSA to Spy on U.S. International Calls

Who cares if the Dems were briefed? The point is that now the people know. Shame on the N.Y. Times for not releasing the story earlier. Democracies die behind closed doors. Honestly, to read some of the comments here, you'd forget that this was a conspiracy forum...

Of course, this "news" is way older than the war on terror...

Originally posted by dgtempe
Another viewpoint:

Susan Low Bloch, a professor of constitutional law at Georgetown University Law Center, said Bush was "taking a hugely expansive interpretation of the Constitution and the president's powers under the Constitution.

That view was echoed by congressional Democrats.

"I tell you, he's President George Bush, not King George Bush. This is not the system of government we have and that we fought for," Sen. Russell Feingold, D-Wis., told The Associated Press.

You don't even want to hear some of the things my constitutional law professor had to say. Good guy on the whole, but almost too intelligent for his own good.

[edit on 12/18/05 by para]

Originally posted by jsobecky

At any rate, you've proven to me that you are not mature enough to engage in debate without resorting to personal attacks. No big loss for me - there are plenty of adults on ATS to debate.

That's cool JSOBecky. Been nice talking to you.

Sorry... That was the best I could come up with since I was unable to council with all those who put me up to this.

Originally posted by sigung86

Originally posted by jsobecky

At any rate, you've proven to me that you are not mature enough to engage in debate without resorting to personal attacks. No big loss for me - there are plenty of adults on ATS to debate.

That's cool JSOBecky. Been nice talking to you.

Sorry... That was the best I could come up with since I was unable to council with all those who put me up to this.

Well, I gotta say I had given you more credit than resorting to that type of tactic, esp. for someone in their late 50's. But it goes to show you never can tell how people will react when their position is being throttled.

Now run along and play with your Sistah.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Jsobecky, i have no doubt at all this, once again, is William Jefferson Clintons doing?

Let us track it back. I am sure we can find lots of executive orders by Clinton to watch the citizens and classify them as persons of interest if they dared speak of cigars*

You people will go to your deaths fighting and apologizing for this administration- I give up.

dgtempe: Obviously you missed the part that mentioned that it is Congress that must first write the law, then the president signs it or doesn't.
Now.... since you feel this administration is so bad, and ex-president pantload was just fine, consider the following:

1.Executive Order #10995: Authorizes seizure of all communication equipment in the United States.

2.Executive Order #10997: Authorizes seizure of all electrical power companies, fuels, fuel sources, and minerals (public and private).

3.Executive Order #10998: Authorizes seizure of all food supplies, food resources, all farms and all farm equipment (public and private).

4.Executive Order #10999: Authorizes seizure of all means of transportation - including personal cars, trucks, or any type of vehicle; Total control over all highways, roads, seaports, and seaways.

5.Executive Order # 11000: Authorizes forced conscription of all Americans for work duties under supervision of Federal agents. This section also authorizes the splitting up of family units if deemed necessary by the government agencies in charge.

6.Executive Order # 11001: Authorizes seizure of all health, education, and welfare facilities and their administrations (public and private).

7.Executive Order # 11002: Empowers the Post Master General to register all men, women and children in the United States for government purposes.

8.Executive Order # 11003: Authorizes seizure of all airports and all aircraft, public, commercial, and private.

9.Executive Order # 11004: Authorizes seizure of all housing and finance authorities and permits government agents to establish forced relocation sites. The government can declare any area of it's choosing as "unsafe" and force the entire area to be abandoned of all persons. Authorizes
establishment of new "relocation" communities; building new housing with public funds.

10.Executive Order # 11005: Authorizes seizure of all railroads, inland waterways, and storage facilities, both public and private.

11.Executive Order #13010 (NEW) : This Executive order is entitled Critical Infrastructure Protection. It establishes and commission made up of members from Federal government departments and agencies which will have greater powers than any body of officials in the history of the United States when an emergency is declared.
This commission includes the heads of:

1) The Department of the Treasury
2) The Department of Justice
3) The department of Defense
4) The Department of Commerce
5) The Department of Transportation
6) The Department of Energy
7) The CIA
8) The FBI
9) FEMA

Signed June 3, 1994, by President Clinton. Encompasses all the above executive orders.

What say you?

Here is what Senator McCain had to say on the matter at hand:

"We all know that since Sept. 11 we have new challenges with enemies that exist within the United States of America - so the equation has changed."

McCain said that while the administration needs to explain why it didn't first seek approval from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, he suggested that the Patriot Act might have superseded the 1978 FISA Act, allowing "additional powers for the president."

Going on to further assert:

"I'd like to hear from the leaders of Congress, both Republican and Democrat, who, according to reports, we're briefed on this and agreed to it," he told "This Week." "They didn't raise any objection, apparently, to [whether] there was a, quote, violation of law."

John McCain: Bush Right to Use NSA

Here is a thought:
When the hell is anyone going to leak the name(s) of those who did the leaking?







seekerof

[edit on 18-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Whoever leaked this information should be tracked down and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and the New York Times staff members who are responsible for printing this information should be considered accomplices at the very least.

[edit on 2005/12/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Senator McCain is a fence sitter. You never know which side of the fence he's going to fall off...

I am grateful this information leaked. We need to know the truth (like we didnt suspect it)
Thank Goodness for those protecting our rights in this country.

Bringing the leakers to justice is made more difficult with attitudes such as these floating around:

Who cares if the Dems were briefed? The point is that now the people know. Shame on the N.Y. Times for not releasing the story earlier.

People do not have the right to know everything in our country. Imagine walking into the DA's office and demanding a complete list of the evidence he holds against a criminal.

Or imagine walking up to Dr. Smith and demanding to know whether one of his patients has HIV.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Another viewpoint:

Susan Low Bloch, a professor of constitutional law at Georgetown University Law Center, said Bush was "taking a hugely expansive interpretation of the Constitution and the president's powers under the Constitution.

That view was echoed by congressional Democrats.

"I tell you, he's President George Bush, not King George Bush. This is not the system of government we have and that we fought for," Sen. Russell Feingold, D-Wis., told The Associated Press.

Another viewpoint II

Hey, that is a swell and sure relevant mention by that Constitutional Law professor, but perhaps she was not fully researched or simply missed this below linked mention. This law, which has gone unmentioned during this entire topic, is a pertinent law, labeled as 50 USC 1802, which would quite possibly indicate that no law was broken.

§ 1802. Electronic surveillance authorization without court order; certification by Attorney General; reports to Congressional committees; transmittal under seal; duties and compensation of communication common carrier; applications; jurisdiction of court

(a) (1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath that—

(A) the electronic surveillance is solely directed at—
(i) the acquisition of the contents of communications transmitted by means of communications used exclusively between or among foreign powers, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title; or
(ii) the acquisition of technical intelligence, other than the spoken communications of individuals, from property or premises under the open and exclusive control of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801 (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title; [e.g., defined as terrorists /angkor]

(B) there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person [e.g. citizen or perm. resident /angkor] is a party; and

(C) the proposed minimization procedures with respect to such surveillance meet the definition of minimization procedures under section 1801 (h) of this title; and if the Attorney General reports such minimization procedures and any changes thereto to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence at least thirty days prior to their effective date, unless the Attorney General determines immediate action is required and notifies the committees immediately of such minimization procedures and the reason for their becoming effective immediately.

(2) An electronic surveillance authorized by this subsection may be conducted only in accordance with the Attorney General’s certification and the minimization procedures adopted by him. The Attorney General shall assess compliance with such procedures and shall report such assessments to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence under the provisions of section 1808 (a) of this title.

US Code: Title 50, 1802. Electronic surveillance authorization without court order...

In the link provided below [for the quote given], FISA, or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, gives the US government wide latitude in warrantless surveillance of international communications even when one point originates in the US, as long as the person in the US does not qualify as a "US person". A "United States person" is then defined:

(i) “United States person” means a citizen of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence (as defined in section 1101 (a)(20) of title 8), an unincorporated association a substantial number of members of which are citizens of the United States or aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence, or a corporation which is incorporated in the United States, but does not include a corporation or an association which is a foreign power, as defined in subsection (a)(1), (2), or (3) of this section.

Note that a US person must either be a US citizen or someone lawfully admitted to the US for permanent residence. If someone resides in the US on a visa and not a green card, they do not qualify, nor do they qualify if they get a green card under false pretenses.

Of additional relevance to FISA and the authorization of warrentless surveillance:

In fact, the only people who need to make this call are the President and the Attorney General, and it doesn't even make the accidental or tangential exposure of communications with US persons a crime. It only requires that the AG ensure that mitigation procedures have been applied to ensure compliance with FISA. The only way that one can violate this law is if the law gets intentionally violated. In other words, one would have to prove that Bush intentionally ordered the surveillance of a qualifying US person.

The FISA Act And The Definition Of 'US Persons'

I am glad that all information involving our Elected politician doings in our name and against us is in the open . . . I applaud the people that still believe in We the people and not We the power.

This is America and our government is not a dictatorship or a kingdom, We the people have the right to know what is been done behind our backs.

Down with the king

King George needs to resign for abuse of power and the trust of the people that elected him.

This was a classified intelligence operation. It is not for the general public. The release of this information has aided and abetted our enemies. Who ever breached his security clearance in this matter should be be sentenced to death, along with the reporters who printed it.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
This was a classified intelligence operation. It is not for the general public. The release of this information has aided and abetted our enemies. Who ever breached his security clearance in this matter should be be sentenced to death, along with the reporters who printed it.

Grady, you are a sick twisted man. Whether it is by design is irrevelant. You are the unofficial mouthpiece for the Bush administration. You are like the Internet Bill O'Reilly.

Bush allows NSA to spy on U.S. citizens? Big Deal. We have more than enough ammo to impeach EVERYONE in the Bush regime already. This is another silver bullet that will only strike a flesh wound with the monster that has become our federal government. Until enough people in power have the balls to say enough is enough this fascist engine will continue to chug along.

Originally posted by marg6043
We the people have the right to know what is been done behind our backs.

Not when it deals with National Security issues.
In my own perspective and interpretation, this is not about freedom of speech, nor about freedom of press, this is about a blatant compromising of National Security.

I only hope that an investigation is done, not only on whether Bush and the administration broke any laws, but on the New York Times, and the individual or individuals that leaked this information.

Originally posted by RebelSaint
Grady, you are a sick twisted man. Whether it is by design is irrevelant. You are the unofficial mouthpiece for the Bush administration. You are like the Internet Bill O'Reilly.

You can add me in there too, mate, along with a number of others here, k?

We have more than enough ammo to impeach EVERYONE in the Bush regime already.

Proverb of importance and notice here: Actions speak louder than words.
As such, get the impeachment process underway and quite jabbering about it already, k?
Been listening to such for a few years now.





seekerof

[edit on 18-12-2005 by Seekerof]

I am very sorry Grady to disagree with you, I know that you are a patriot and a good citizen but. . .

The day that our information and the awareness given to the people of this nation is gag and bind that will be the day that our democracy will die.

So be happy American citizens that we still have our freedom of press even if our civil rights are in jeopardy.

Here is something incredible- i know i heard it!


The good judge who is so pro-Bush was on Fox and being interviewed by Bill O'really. Do you know what he said????

He said what Bush is doing is against the LAW

He didnt mince any words either. Flat out against the constitution and against the law!

Wonder if he will be back!

Let your hair down, Judge. I'm glad you are human!

[edit on 18-12-2005 by dgtempe]

Originally posted by RebelSaint
Grady, you are a sick twisted man.

Actually, I've just been around long enough to know which end is up.

You are the unofficial mouthpiece for the Bush administration.

I'm a loyal American and you might be surprised to know that I have voted for Democratic Presidential candidates, including George McGovern and Bill Clinton.

You are like the Internet Bill O'Reilly.

Thank you! Bill's not perfect, but he's a "stand-up guy!"



[edit on 2005/12/18 by GradyPhilpott]

Your Fox-blocker not working today?

Being we all know that FOXNEWS is biased and not worthy of being a valid media sourcing, you need to link some sort of other source for that mention, dgtempe.

I mean geez, is FOXNEWS only relevant when it possibly has something that agrees with your views and perceptions? Say it ain't so.





seekerof

[edit on 18-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Oh, but i love entertainment...i would never block my source of laughter for all the tea in China

Hee hee hee, he said it! He said it! The #1 Pro Bush station......What a climactic moment!

People putting the bias and insults aside.

We have to give it to our political leaders; they have become nothing more than the best show in town.

Taking in consideration the upcoming elections next year all this can not be timelier.

Who needs TV programming when you have the best soap opera saga coming from the Oval office.

The white house has always been a place of intrigue and secrecy but since the Clinton Era it has become a circus.

Yes . . . the government has always spied on people at home and abroad, but you have to give it this administration, the more secrecy they try to keep the more their stuff goes around.

I actually enjoying the show, I am not angry but actually very, very amused.

I am actually laughing at this one.