WAR: Bush Allowed NSA to Spy on U.S. International Calls

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posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 01:00 AM
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The New York Times is reporting that a previously undisclosed executive order signed in 2002 by President Bush allows the National Security Agency to intercept phone calls and e-mails between the U.S. and other countries without a court order. According to anonymous Times sources, hundreds to thousands of people may have had their communications tapped by the NSA in an effort to locate phone numbers and e-mail addresses used by terrorist organizations. Purely domestic calls still need a warrant from a federal court before they can be tapped. Although most of the communication eavesdropping led nowhere, a few cases did result in the breakup of terrorist plots.
 



www.nyti mes.com
WASHINGTON, Dec. 15 - Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.

Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.

The previously undisclosed decision to permit some eavesdropping inside the country without court approval was a major shift in American intelligence-gathering practices, particularly for the National Security Agency, whose mission is to spy on communications abroad. As a result, some officials familiar with the continuing operation have questioned whether the surveillance has stretched, if not crossed, constitutional limits on legal searches.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


I'm surprised the NSA wasn't already doing this, perhaps if they had been 9/11 could have been averted. It looks to me like the difference is they could target phone numbers outside the U.S. making calls into the U.S. before, but not target numbers within the country making or receiving international calls. The NSA is one of the most secretive organizations within the U.S. government, so I don't really know much about it, but they apparently have an amazing ability to eavesdrop on electronic communications worldwide.

I'm sure civil libertarians will up in arms over this, but as long it is just aimed at international terrorism, I have no problem with it and am, in fact, glad it's being done.

Related News Links:
en.wikipedia.org



[edit on 12/16/2005 by djohnsto77]




posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 01:08 AM
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Sounds like a good idea!

I really don't want to help the terrorists any! Geez!

I can't believe anyone could possibly have a problem with this!




-- Boat


PS: Good find, I just know someone will complain about this one!

[edit on 16-12-2005 by Boatphone]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 01:26 AM
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The NSA has had the ablility to spy on just about any electronic communication anywhere in the world. Email, Phone calls. faxes you name it. They created the Echelon system for just this reason. It records everything so everything is being spied on all the time. The problem is sorting through the massive amounts of information it picks up.

They have been doing this stuff for years



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 02:44 AM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
The problem is sorting through the massive amounts of information it picks up.


"Q. How many people work for the NSA/CSS and what is its budget?

A. Neither the number of employees nor the size of the Agency's budget can be publicly disclosed. However, if the NSA/CSS were considered a corporation in terms of dollars spent, floor space occupied, and personnel employed, it would rank in the top 10 percent of the Fortune 500 companies."



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 03:43 AM
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I really have no problem with it either. From what I understand it is in essence the same thing they have been doing for a while, it's more or less a procedural shift to make it easier to pro-activley seek out terrorist elements rather than rely on the FBI/whoever to put together a case first and then get a court order and request the NSA utilize its resouces on domestic communications.

No doubt some will be crying foul regarding civil liberties, etc. So it goes.

[edit on 12/16/05 by para]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 03:48 AM
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The problem with this is, they're using terrorism to open the door like a battering ram with the intent on stealing away the US Constitution from us.

Yes, I'm an American, & you better believe I have a problem with this, not because I have anything to hide, oh quite the contrary, I tell My life story all the time, everywhere I go. I tell all the mistakes I've made, tell each time I fell down & had struggles getting back up, & make sure people understand what I've gone through.

I'm going to sit here & wait, til one of these people who defend what the NSA, Uncle Sam, & everyone else with power does, knocks on the door of one of these people in here who gripe or complain about their Government & what they're doing.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 04:07 AM
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Obsession with national security

Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting "national security," and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

Sure - just let them trample all over your Rights and your Privacy, and call it War on Terrorism.

I wonder when you people will get it, that they are not doing this to PROTECT you - but to CONTROL you.

That is a BIG Difference...



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 04:27 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
I wonder when you people will get it, that they are not doing this to PROTECT you - but to CONTROL you.


Probably never, as I do not entertain the notion of a vast conspiratorial government whose sole intent is to establish a monolithic Orwellian system of exacting control over every aspect of my life.

What I see instead is a government that was actively attacked on its own soil and has for the immediate future switched into survival mode to prevent being destroyed from within by the very values it champions.

But to each his own.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 05:40 AM
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I am honored to bestow the First Titor!



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 05:52 AM
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Originally posted by NWguy83

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
The problem is sorting through the massive amounts of information it picks up.


"Q. How many people work for the NSA/CSS and what is its budget?

A. Neither the number of employees nor the size of the Agency's budget can be publicly disclosed. However, if the NSA/CSS were considered a corporation in terms of dollars spent, floor space occupied, and personnel employed, it would rank in the top 10 percent of the Fortune 500 companies."


I think personal plays a important part but I doubt even they cant come close to dealing with the billions of messages they intercept. Most of the large bulk of info is narrowed down with computer programs that search for key words or where the message came from and was being sent. Things like that then the human personal would search out was is important from that.

I would bet my last dollar the NSA has some amazing super computer networks doing this type of work as we type. Its really a interesting org. I just wish it was easier to get information on them sometimes.

[edit on 16-12-2005 by ShadowXIX]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 06:09 AM
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Originally posted by Mainer
I am honored to bestow the First Titor!


As I am honored to say and predict that Titor's prediction of civil war will soon become a debunked fairy tale.
The American Civil War of 2005 as predicted by John Titor

As for this topic, Bush allowed? At any rate:


The following Report was required by the FY 2000 Intelligence Authorization Act, and was transmitted to Congress at the end of February 2000.

Legal Standards for the Intelligence Community in Conducting Electronic Surveillance

Desperately seeking signals

United States Signals Intelligence Directive (USSID 18)
USSID 18






seekerof

[edit on 16-12-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 06:19 AM
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Guys this is nothing, check out a company called AMDOCS and or Odigo if you want to get creeped out on something.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 08:43 AM
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"..... a few cases did result in the breakup of terrorist plots."

The above is the most important part of the article. Whatever your beliefs about 9-11, I'm fairly sure that a president from any party would have signed that Exec. order, if asked by the NSA.

I'm also fairly certain that two of the plots broken up were ones on the Mall of America, and the Golden Gate Bridge.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by twitchy
Guys this is nothing, check out a company called AMDOCS and or Odigo if you want to get creeped out on something.

Odigo seems to be the same type of company as Claria (previously Gator); their biggest sin was creating a market with their annoying pop-ups, etc., that they capitalized on. I don't see anything particularly sinister about them; maybe I'm missing something?

At any rate, they are not in the same league as the NSA and Ft. Huachuca, whose abilities are second to none.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 10:50 AM
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Bush allowed nothing, but he should have ordered it after 9/11. It was also just released that shortly following the OK city bombing, US satellites were used to take pictures of supposed white supremcist terror camps, so I guess Clinton is just as bad as Bush, no. Please don't turn this into a left wing attack, so you should remove the Bush remark from the headline.

The public is at least 20-30 years behind the private sector in the technology curve when, especially when looking at government projects. IF you have any computer knowledge, you know how easy it can be to sniff an IP and look around someones pc. Well imagine having the US government backing you, and you can imagine what they can do. MOvies are not far off with what we can accompllish. IT only takes money to create a dream.

Also, What makes people think that the citizens of the US would just rollover to some type of NWO action. I am sure that just the population of Texas has more weapons than the entire US Army. We are not France folks....we are under attack every single day, in a type of Holy Crusade by radical fundamental Muslims that is slowing building around the world This is extending past our leaders and flowing into the streets with common citizens.

All it takes is one visit to ground zero, think about the 3000 people taken in one day, and to me, anything that can protect my family is fine with me.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by NWguy83

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
The problem is sorting through the massive amounts of information it picks up.


"Q. How many people work for the NSA/CSS and what is its budget?

A. Neither the number of employees nor the size of the Agency's budget can be publicly disclosed. However, if the NSA/CSS were considered a corporation in terms of dollars spent, floor space occupied, and personnel employed, it would rank in the top 10 percent of the Fortune 500 companies."


I think personal plays a important part but I doubt even they cant come close to dealing with the billions of messages they intercept. Most of the large bulk of info is narrowed down with computer programs that search for key words or where the message came from and was being sent. Things like that then the human personal would search out was is important from that.

I would bet my last dollar the NSA has some amazing super computer networks doing this type of work as we type. Its really a interesting org. I just wish it was easier to get information on them sometimes.

[edit on 16-12-2005 by ShadowXIX]



The NSA is believed to be the 1st or 2nd largest employer in the state of Maryland.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 11:28 AM
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How convenient.....


NYT 'SPYING' SPLASH TIED TO BOOK RELEASE
Fri Dec 16 200 11:27:16 ET

**Exclusive**

Newspaper fails to inform readers "news break" is tied to book publication

On the front page of today's NEW YORK TIMES, national security reporter James Risen claims that "months after the September 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States... without the court approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials."

Risen claims the White House asked the paper not to publish the article, saying that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny.

Risen claims the TIMES delayed publication of the article for a year to conduct additional reporting.

But now comes word James Risen's article is only one of many "explosive newsbreaking" stories that can be found -- in his upcoming book!




Source

Mod edit:
Please do not paste entire articles, and remember to include a source link.


[edit on 21-12-2005 by parrhesia]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 11:43 AM
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The timing of this leaked classified information is remarkable. Just as the Patriot Act comes up for a vote, the NYT runs with this story exposing classified information.

Will we get a big news story like we did about Plame? After all, that had the potential to be leaking of classified information (it wasn't, but could have been had the charges been legit and Plame was, in fact, a covert op) and has been all over the news for years. Here we have classified information that was leaked for political purposes that could jepordize many lives and investigations.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
[Odigo seems to be the same type of company as Claria (previously Gator); their biggest sin was creating a market with their annoying pop-ups, etc., that they capitalized on. I don't see anything particularly sinister about them; maybe I'm missing something?
At any rate, they are not in the same league as the NSA and Ft. Huachuca, whose abilities are second to none.

Odigo has its hand in every major Instant messenger service there is, Amdocs handles the billing and who knows what else for every major US telecommunications company. Both of them are based in Israel, and both of them have been rumored to have ties to Mossad.
Odigo
Amdocs



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 08:56 PM
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It doesn't happen to be a matter of right or left. It doesn't happen to be a matter of protecting the civilians of the United States of America. It may not even be that there is an NWO conspiracy to take over the United States, and/or ultimately the world. It is, however, a matter of government being government.

Given it's druthers, any government, left to it's own devices, will expand to fill the void and take over every aspect, both large, and small, of life, that the people will let it.

It isn't necessarily a huge conspiracy of any sort. It is, simply the nature of the beast. Those in power are greedy, and want more. Otherwise, they would not be politicians. Many, who are not in power, do not want those in power to have any more of that power. Most of the people, not in control, don't want to be bothered; want the government to take over every aspect of their lives that they don't wish to be bothered with or do not understand.

This, large conspiracy aside, turns us into a nation of ho-hum... Non-thinking, non-excelling, non-independent automatons, "by the nature of the beast called government".

I understand that this type of thing will catch the occasional terrorist operation, and act, but ... It seems to me, and I'm not really a moron, that there are more effective ways that are less invasive to achieve the same results. I'm not necessarily a right wing, nor am I a left wing, I am simply a human being who wishes to have the right to live and die as he wishes, as long as there is no harm to another person. and yet, I am beginning to believe that this is an illusory paradigm.

Leave me alone Bushie! I have fought for my country! I would do it again! I'm not planning on bombing anything, blowing up, subverting, or doing anything to any aspect of our country or it's people, that will cause angst amongst the politicians or those many, who willingly surrender their rights to live, die, laugh, love, and make the mistakes that are inherent in this thing called life.

A government that spends so much product in the process of spying on it's own citizens has much, I suspect, to fear from the possibilities of those same citizens.

[edit on 16-12-2005 by sigung86]





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