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What would Thomas Jefferson do?

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posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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After reading for the thousandth time how no ones rights were being infringed upon here in America I figured I cut to the chase.

If our Founding Fathers were alive today, remember the ones the WROTE the Constitution..........

Would they agree with manditory IDs, Government snooping in every asspect of your life, monsterous taxes, interfering in other countries internal affairs, etc, etc.

Or would they revolt all over again?

I think they would march on Washington myself, that is if they could find enough people left in this country that believed in Freedom.

What do yall think and why?




posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 08:57 PM
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No Amuk they probably will leave American and find another land to start all over and perhaps this time make sure the new constitution would have high lighted What a country should never become rather than what a country should be.

Funny I don't thing that they will waste any time with the people that don't want to listen or live oblivious of reality.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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they were originally going to put a tax limit of 3% into the constitution, but after much debate, decided it wasnt necessary because the people would never stand for more than that.

which tends to show you just how much backbone we've lost over the last 229 years, leading me to believe they'd never find enough support for their revolution.

i agree with marg...they'd find someplace else to set up shop.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:10 PM
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well it all depends on the "real" character of these men. Were they greedy, caniving, power hungry politicians? If so then they might be happy with how the government currently operates. Other than that, I think they would be pretty upset with the current state of affairs.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:10 PM
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Not only a march but a huge peacefull assembly, so huge in fact that the white house, congress and senate plus supreme court would be unable to leave their offices until the masses have been heard. I am with you brother if any one is, ye knowith my ideas just as well as anyone else who hath readith my elder posts.

What Would TJ Do?
I don't know exactly, but here are some things the man said, first quote being on the topic in the great document. Also my sig has something of his words. Following the TJ quotes are a couple pages I put together in memory of my favorite historical Commander and President.


"On every question of construction [of the Constitution] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
-- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), letter to Judge William Johnson, (from Monticello, June 12, 1823)

"All Experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, when Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed."
--Thomas Jefferson

"Fear can only prevail when victims are ignorant of the facts."
-Thomas Jefferson

"A country cannot be both ignorant and free..."
-Thomas Jefferson

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants".
--Thomas Jefferson

"I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy."

-Thomas Jefferson

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
-Thomas Jefferson

Patriot page

Another


Let it be know, those who knew, tried.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:15 PM
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It's one problem Advisor . . . the American people has been worked out to the point that has lost it's will to stand against any government.

This has been in the planning for many years . . . is a government dreams to have a very submissive population, ready to take anything that is fed to them with not protest.

For those that dare to complain the law is readily available to stop them.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:29 PM
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Well I think Thomas Jefferson would walk up in some dadas representin with some bling bling, and then like, smack bush, then say how great virginians were. THen He'd take over and America would be a better place. But what I dont get is when people whine about this stuff. At least we still have writs of habeas corpus. Everyone whines, but a lot of rights are still here, and during wars things have been a lot worse. 2000 troops isnt bad. we lost 20000 in antetem in like two hours during the civil war. But in conclusion jefferson would make it better.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:32 PM
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I don't know about Jefferson, but I don't think Washington would be too fond of how we conduct ourselves....

earlyamerica.com...

or if reading isn't one of your joys in life, here's a brief overview:

earlyamerica.com...

[edit on 15-12-2005 by dawnstar]



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by truttseeker
At least we still have writs of habeas corpus. Everyone whines, but a lot of rights are still here, and during wars things have been a lot worse.


and at least the slaves didnt have to worry about food and housing but I dont think they liked it



2000 troops isnt bad. we lost 20000 in antetem in like two hours during the civil war. But in conclusion jefferson would make it better.


where did I mention this? I would accept a million dead in the cause of freedom but one dead just to meddle in another countries affairs is too many



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:48 PM
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One of the things that Jefferson would be inscensed about is the goverments encroachment upon the free exercise of religion. He was staunchly against any judicial or legislative restriction on the free exercise of religious faith in all aspects of both private and public life. The last 50 years of judicial tyrany over the issues of prayer in schools, abortion, public religious displays and the like would send him off on a quest to impeach those perverters of his words. (it was a statement he made in a letter, taken completely out of context and meaning that gives us "the separation of church and state")

The vast reliance on the federal government for disaster aid, welfare, road construction, and the like would have been an afront to him as well since Jefferson was a staunch states rights guy and fought vehemently against a strong federal government. He was also a rabid opponent of a Federal Reserve Bank. (or at least its 1790's equivalent) This fact was born out historically in his opposition to Alexander Hamilitons plan to nationalize the revolutionary war debt back when both he and Hamilton were members of Washington's cabinet.

Truly Jefferson would not recognize this nation in its current form and would deplore it morally, socially, and govermentally as an anathema of what he and most other founding fathers envisioned.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
Would they agree with manditory IDs, Government snooping in every asspect of your life, monsterous taxes, interfering in other countries internal affairs, etc, etc.

Or would they revolt all over again?

I think they would march on Washington myself, that is if they could find enough people left in this country that believed in Freedom.

What do yall think and why?


Well initially I was going to say that no they wouldn't agree with manditory IDs, but since the IDs are state drivers licenses, keyword state, they probably would approve, just because states were supposed to have that sort of power.

Edit: Actually I was just thinking that to drive anywhere in the US you need a state drivers license, therefore it is a Federal law. So, I revise my opinion, they probably wouldn't even agree with the IDs.

But about the government snooping and the rest of that paragraph, the abolsutely believe the founders would not tolerate. And yes, they would revolt all over again, though it is already a lot harder to revolt than it was back in their days. The government has all kinds of laws and powers that allow it to prevent any dissent they deem hostile to the country (i.e. their maintaining power and not disturbing the sheeple's lives of ignorance and bliss).

The people of America are largely docile and in there eyes the United States can never go wrong.

- Attero

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Attero Auctorita]



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:54 PM
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So fighting for our freedom is okay, but fighting for people who are getting shot and killed for having certain beliefs is wrong? I would rather go over there and help those people out than sit here and read about it. Plus my previous post wasnt directed as a response to anyones, I just figured I'd say it. sry if it came of as argumentive.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 10:07 PM
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Very good arguement Marg, just one thing. They havn't stopped me yet, and as a pressure group they'll be hard pressed to do so.

I have letters/mail/post from the Whitehouse, Senate, Congress, and house of Reps plus Attorney General. On topics ranging from enviornment to the war, not to mention have taken action through other groups such as True Majority. A very small percentage of the US actually take action in interest of change. Too many people are ready to just let the government decide for them.



"All Experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, when Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed."


Just the other day, I spoke with a fellow who is in his 40s, and he was not familar with out nations founding. He heard of the revolution, but just don't know the details leading up to and after. This is sad, because it goes to show exactly what you mentioned, the dumbing down or intentional ignification of the people. I just made that word up,
, point is public awareness has declined. People just don't know that when they DONT go and vote, they allow the very corrupt poli ticians they despise and complain about, to decide for them.

How many people voted this past election, compared to registered voters.
All it takes is community groups, in each state to band together and stand their ground. If at least 100 people from each state, organised and put out a signature poll to show change was warranted, it could.

Back in the day, any and all citizens could walk right into the white house and speak with the president directly, no "speaker of the house" required. Not any more, we lost that because no one fought for it. Gone are the days of True America, people have become soft, and those who have not are hard pressed to tolerate it.

United we stand, the rest is not an option!©

One can not help another, who won't help them selves.



"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams, debates of 1776



Those words I don't post lightly, heck I hope no one takes my signature lightly. All we have of our founding fathers are the words left behind. With one word changed, a sentance can be completely changed, and laws are being manipulated exactly that way. I challenge ALL of you to ask a grand parent, or other elder their opinion on society and how this nation has changed in their life time. I can 99.99999999999999999999999999% guarantee they will not be pleased with that change

Those who complain need to do something about it, talk is cheap, and action speaks louder than any word. It is not the governments fault the people they are charged to serve can't decide for themselves.

USE IT OR LOSE IT, applies to more than just ATS scholars. Use your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to vote or lose that choice.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by ADVISOR]



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 10:09 PM
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Personal opinion.

King George of England didn't stand a chance against these mavericks.

King George in Washington DC would fall just as well.

Love and light,

Wupy



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 10:23 PM
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I can't believe no one else has posted this yet:

If they were alive today they'd be clawing at the top of their coffins trying to get out.


Ahh.... my 200th post.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 11:09 PM
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Advisor, I wished I could appuald you.

I wonder why none of the "we havent lost any rights" group isnt posting there thoughts here?

Maybe because they would have to admit that even though we arent being rounded up and put in prisions enmasse this is NOT the country it was intended to be.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 11:32 PM
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Thank you Amuk, the same can be said for you. And who ever tagged this thread, "nanny state" , I love it.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
I wonder why none of the "we havent lost any rights" group isnt posting there thoughts here?

Hello, Amuk.
Good to see you back, btw.

To the issue at hand:
Only Thomas Jefferson name is used in this discussion?


What would Thomas Jefferson do?

If our Founding Fathers were alive today, remember the ones the WROTE the Constitution..........

Would they agree with manditory IDs, Government snooping in every asspect of your life, monsterous taxes, interfering in other countries internal affairs, etc, etc.

Or would they revolt all over again?


The Founding Fathers were diverse in how they saw the newly created America.
You cite the name of Jefferson when he was an anti-federalist: those who thought a strong centralized government was equal to the 'tyrannical' rule of England, who wanted a federated government--were the national government was an instrument of the states, those who sought small government and standing military, etc, those that worshipped the faulty Articles of Confederation. The humorous thing is is that when Jefferson got the chance to be President, he did just that: reduce national goernment, its powers, reduced the military, etc. Ironically, the war of 1812 happens and because of what he had done, the British basically burn Washington and kick America into reality.

How about ask: Is not Madison or Hamilton or Washington part of the gang of "Founding Fathers"? At any rate, allow me to counter your Jefferson mention with: What would Madison do or Hamilton or Washington do or say or think? I do think that they, especially Madison and Hamilton, would be quite opposite of what Jefferson would do, say, or think; a real eye opener.







seekerof

[edit on 15-12-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Only Thomas Jefferson name is used in this discussion?


feel free to use any of them Jefferson is just my favorite. I think he more than most of the others repersented my Ideal of America.




How about ask: Is not Madison or Hamilton or Washington part of the gang of "Founding Fathers"? At any rate, allow me to counter your Jefferson mention with: What would Madison do or Hamilton or Washington do or say or think? I do think that they, especially Madison and Hamilton, would be quite opposite of what Jefferson would do, say, or think; a real eye opener.



Ask away, but the question remains the same......would they think this was the direction they wanted the country to take????

Hamilton.....probably.....he was a wannabe dictator anyhow......LOL

Washington.......that one is tougher. He is not one of the Founding Fathers I like very much, but I still dont think he would have liked what he seen today.


Franklin, Adams, etc.....no

These men werent perfect by a long shot, slavers, smugglers, etc....but I cant see them bowing down to the taxes the searches, the government intrusion into almost EVERY asspect of our lives, etc.


But just a direct answer.........do you think they.....as a group......would like the country today? And why?


PS

Its good to be back



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by truttseeker
So fighting for our freedom is okay, but fighting for people who are getting shot and killed for having certain beliefs is wrong? I would rather go over there and help those people out than sit here and read about it. Plus my previous post wasnt directed as a response to anyones, I just figured I'd say it. sry if it came of as argumentive.


No problem we are here to argue.....LOL

The American Government was not created to save everyone in the world and be the worlds police.

It was created to be a place where people (admitedly white men at the time) could come and be free to prosper by there own work.

Can you show me one place in the Constitution where is says we are susposed to free the down troden across the world......or at least the countries with oil in them......LOL



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