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Missing Passengers Carnival Cruise

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posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by esdad71

It is still one of the safest ways to travel, since basically there are 7 million people cruising per year, and there have been a half dozen incidents in the past 5 or so years.


It is very clear you do not know the real figures. Alaska claims there are about 20 A year.


A passenger’s death might seem like one of the most unlikely events on a cruise ship at sea, but it happens more than you might think – perhaps as often as 20 times a year in Alaska waters, according to the Alaska Medical Examiner and morticians in Juneau and Ketchikan. Officials from Princess, Holland America Line and Royal Caribbean Cruises – the biggest players in the Alaska cruise trade – declined interviews in connection with this article and would not let a reporter tour their ships. But speaking on the condition of anonymity, three mid-level cruise industry officials agreed to tell how their ships deal with their clients’ deaths.

www.anchoragepress.com...


And that is just in Alaska! Granted they are not all questionable deaths but just 2 a year in Alaska Alone would throw your figures way off. Now what was that you were saying about only a half dozen?


[edit on 12/17/2005 by shots]




posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 07:29 PM
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I guess some might just jump over or are thrown overboard by some person. Others could have been abducted while on land, you can't know for sure until you find them. I've been on a cruise, Voyager of the Seas, Jamaica was pretty shaddy all they do is try to sell you weed.

I was in a cabin with my brother and i think at 2:30 am i heard someone knocking at the door and it was him. He had been sleep walking in his boxers, i think to get some ice cream, it was damn good ice cream. He woke up before he got there and quickly came back. So maybe some people even sleep walk or sleep jump off the ship.

I would like to go on another cruise, so much food, pizza whenever you want, soft serve ice cream 24/7, breakfast oh my god. Dinner is also always delicious, you have to dress up which is a pain but not bad. Plus the island hopping is nice, Cozumel was cool.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 10:49 PM
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If you have ever gone on an Alaskan crusie, 80% of those on the ship are over 65, and there are deaths due to age related or health related incidents. I know the facts, I am in the industry, and you are taking partial fact and trying to turn it into fear.

Again, I refer to this, our governement watches

www.ntsb.gov...

They are regulated by the USCG

www.uscg.mil...

and over 7 years since someone esle went missing on the same line as the man who is missing in the Mediterraen with his wife

www.stamfordadvocate.com...

Here is the link to the whole story, you might want to read it...

www.stamfordadvocate.com...




In the Bradley and Smith cases, Royal Caribbean International officials said they immediately notified authorities.

"Our standard procedure is to contact the FBI and the local authorities," said Lynn Marten-stein, vice president of corporate communications, calling Bradley's disappearance "another horribly, horribly tragic event."

In Smith's case, cruise officials have turned over all of their camera surveillance and computer information to the FBI, Martenstein said.

"We have had people on the ship gathering all of this information from charges to security information," she said.




the FBI does recieve everything since it is a US citizen that is affected, and this is standard procedure. There is inherent risk in driving to the local store and bieng abducted, and there are more than 300,000 missing or kidnapped children each year, even though many are casued by custody battles, it seems that crusing is pretty safe.

and check out how violent the world is

During 2004--

the number of people who reported they were victims of violent crime fell from about 28 per 1,000 to about 25 per 1,000, a 10% drop. The number of people reporting violent crimes fell from 6,323,000 in 2000 to 5,744,000

Almost the same number of people who cruise each year, reported a violent crime.I understand the tragic events that these people must be experiencing, and I agree that there is never enough security, but to just flat out say that crusiing is not safe and a haven for crime is ignorant.



Merry Christmas, I'm taking a cruise.....



posted on Dec, 18 2005 @ 04:41 AM
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Cruising - Designed for the Newley Wed and the Nearly Dead.

I used to be Employed on a cruiseliner and it was common occurance to leave passengers behind, they are told what time the ship is going to set sail and if there not aboard it costs a hell of alot to wait for them, port fees for example are like 20k for a day in places (that varies).

The occasional passeger that was left behind was lucky enough to catch a pilot boat back out to the ship but usually they have to get out there wallets and pay thousands to get home and miss half there cruise lol.

Occasionaly people jump overboard, thats costly to, send out flotsam and jetsom ,do the Williamson turn and spend forever looking for the fool.

I always imagined murder at sea would be the easiest crime to get away with, i guess theres alot more security cameras now a days, but in the middle of the night slip that body over board and no ones the wiser, sharks eat the evidence and the murderer go's to the Piano bar and enjoys a glass of port .

An old work colleague used to swear back and blue that this cruise company he worked for had people "inside" smuggling stuff, the ship would slow down in places during the night and small boats would pull alongside handing packages through cargo doors etc. Cant even remeber which company was some dodgy one in Asia some where.

Im sure security etc is alot better on cruiseliners now, well i hope so in the age of Terrorism.

But back to original post its no surprise Carnival Cruiselines is now having alot of passengers missing, theyve bought out nearly every large cruise company there is, so dissappearances used to be spread around a bit, i bet theres the same amount of disappearances its just virtually all cruising is under the carnival banner.

One peice of advice if you take a cruise, make sure you buy Medical Insurance - i could never get over these tight asses that didnt buy it.

If you start puking with sea sickness it will cost you atleast 100 bucks for a needle to stop puking, if you have an accident on a remote Island medical evacuation can be as high as a 100 grand, medical insurance for a cruise is probably only 50 bucks.

Happy Cruising.



posted on Dec, 18 2005 @ 04:53 AM
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Originally posted by esdad71
If you have ever gone on an Alaskan crusie, 80% of those on the ship are over 65, and there are deaths due to age related or health related incidents. I know the facts, I am in the industry, and you are taking partial fact and trying to turn it into fear.



Esdad, maybe it's just me, but you seem to be taking a very defensive stance on all this.

It is clear, that crime statistics are not completely or reliably reported on cruise lines. The numbers reported by the Alaskan Cruise ships may indicate a more reliable statistic if they are in fact American companies, but either way, there are discrepancies in what's being reported you seem to choose to ignore.

By the way, the fact that you originally reported earlier in the thread that it was your wife and stepfather in the industry to back your statements, and now back your statements with the fact that YOU are "in the industry" makes me wonder even further.



posted on Dec, 18 2005 @ 10:25 AM
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I book theie cruises and run their website, and I have attended trade and industry shows, and I am CLIA certified, accredidation is everything, so I am very aware of what goes on in the industry.

I am bieng defensive becasue this is exactly the type of witch hunting that is propogated through misquotes and "personal beliefs or stories" that scare people away without them doing the research themselves. THis can apply to many things...

Right now, my wife books cruises for people of all ages and large school groups, and it is not for the just newlyweds and nearly deads, but that is a large part of the business. once someone takes a crusie on their honeymoon, they are very likely to rebook till they are nearly dead.

THis is my wifes livelyhood, and I feel I am a little more in the know. I have never said that traveling anywhere is not 'unsafe', I am merely trying to point out that cruising is safe folks, and not to believe the hype.

Yes, if you are left in a port, it is generally because you drank too much, and if it is because of a tour, they will hold the ship. It is very,very rare that someone is left behind, and if htey are, they must not be too concerned about the money to get home, that is much less than the 20k figure someone quoted.






[edit on 18-12-2005 by esdad71]



posted on Dec, 18 2005 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by esdad71
I book theie cruises and run their website, and I have attended trade and industry shows, and I am CLIA certified, accredidation is everything, so I am very aware of what goes on in the industry.



So now by your own admission you have essentially admitted you are completely biased towards the cruise industry. That alone is a good reason not to believe what you say.



posted on Dec, 18 2005 @ 09:51 PM
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You guys make me laugh. There is never anything worthwhile to add, just you trying to discern my charecter and determine if I am part of the evil Neo-Con NWO order of cruise agents out to kidnap people. I will bet some of those people wanted to be missing, and that the others are tragic events. I mean, I have even stated that I think it would be good that there would be more security. Not because there is a problem, but because safety is invaluable and anything that can be done to help protect people, I am for. I guess that is why I agree with the Patriot Act. and I voted for Bush. I feel safe that someone is making sure 9/11 doesn't happen again.


Do me a favor and please, don't take a cruise, you would either not have a good time, annoy the # out of me or fall overboard.
I'll be thinking of you on my British Isles cruise looking at Ireland from my balcony on the ship sipping a beer and feeling safe.....


Merry Christmas



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 05:03 AM
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guys, this incident proves that cruise travel is very dangerous. There are psychos and kidnappers abducting your loved ones if they are in anyway attractive to them. Then they will be transferred to Latin America or African countries to be slaves or prostitutes. These human-traficking organizations are HUGE, and they are everywhere onboard cruises. There is no escaping them once you and your beautiful loved ones are on one. So i guess you learn your lesson today:

NEVER TRAVEL ON A CRUISE WITH A HOT GF OR WIFE, AND DO A GOOD DEED BY PASSING THIS WORD OF WISDOM TO YOUR FRIENDS, FAMILY MEMBERS, RELATIVES, IN RETURN THEY WILL PASS THIS INFO TO THEIR FRIENDS, FAMILY AND REALATIVES ETC.

IF THIS CHAIN CONTINUES HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HAPPY SEEKERS WILL BE SAVED FROM THE EVIL CLUTCHES OF THE CRUISE ABDUCTERS!!!!!!

REMEMBER!!! Going on a cruise with hot loved ones = Losing them to kidnappers!!! So, no going on a cruise = no losing them to kidnappers.

DONT EVER GO ON CRUISE!!!

[edit on 19-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
guys, this incident proves that cruise travel is very dangerous. There are psychos and kidnappers abducting your loved ones if they are in anyway attractive to them. Then they will be transferred to Latin America or African countries to be slaves or prostitutes. These human-traficking organizations are HUGE, and they are everywhere onboard cruises. There is no escaping them once you and your beautiful loved ones are on one. So i guess you learn your lesson today:

NEVER TRAVEL ON A CRUISE WITH A HOT GF OR WIFE




Excuse the pun but thats a bit Overboard isnt it ?

The correct advice to give to people is the same with any form of Travel, just choose your destinations wisely.

Ive personally visited every continent but Antarctica (ill get there before i die) , admittedly ive been places that i probably would'nt return to but travelling is fun and educational, visit your Governments Travel Advisory website and LISTEN to there advice.

Ive Been on over 50 cruises (as an employee) and never ever did we have a passenger abducted.

But if your paranoid and afraid or just dont like the idea of travel, just stay home, switch on the TV or Internet, go for a walk, each to there own i say.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 06:34 AM
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Hey, EarthUnificationFrontier, Learn to control your wife or girlfriend, or maybe lose a bit of your childish insecurity. You can solve that by not dating out of your league.


Do you have anything to add to the conversation, or were you just point trolling?

www.iccl.org...

www.iccl.org...

Read this, according to the FBI,



U.S. laws protect American passengers
onboard non-US flagged cruise ships.
The FBI and local authorities have
authority to investigate and prosecute
alleged crimes in international
waters involving Americans.
According to FBI statistics, cruise
ships are safer than any town in the
United States in terms of crimes of
any type.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by esdad71





www.iccl.org...



Read this, according to the FBI,



U.S. laws protect American passengers
onboard non-US flagged cruise ships.
The FBI and local authorities have
authority to investigate and prosecute
alleged crimes in international
waters involving Americans.
According to FBI statistics, cruise
ships are safer than any town in the
United States in terms of crimes of
any type.



That is not according to the FBI as you claim. That is what the International Council of Cruise Lines says, there is a big difference.

I realize if they ask the FBI they can investigate a crime but they cannot just board any ole ship they want in international waters without permission of the Flag nation that the ship sails under. In other words board a ship with a Panamanian flag you are bound by Panamanian laws while in international waters.

Now if that same Panamanian ship is in the territorial waters of Aruba, then juristication would fall under Arubas laws. US laws would apply if the ship were within US waters.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 09:21 AM
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The FBI statement is in the second link. You should get a job with the NYT you show all the facts so well, choosing what to print, they need more people like you.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by esdad71
The FBI statement is in the second link. You should get a job with the NYT you show all the facts so well, choosing what to print, they need more people like you.


Hey I just used your own sources not mine.

The second link is also from the very same organization biased organization, INTERNATIONAL COUNCIL OF CRUISE LINES. Nowhere on that press release is there a link to an official FBI source, that means it is nothing more then a cruise line policy to allow the FBI to investigate.

www.iccl.org...

Now can you show me where any law gives the FBI the right to investigate a crime aboard ships that are in other nations waters?

Granted most ships and countries will cooperate when a US citizen is involved but I highly doubt there is an international or US law that says cruise lines have too.



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Here are your links, from the FBI's own site...




The Miami Division of the FBI has been actively participating in the Area Maritime Security Committee and holds a seat on the Executive Steering Committee. This committee is a United States Coast Guard initiative, which brings together members of the law enforcement community with executives of the various maritime industries. One of the pilot projects being worked on by the Miami Joint Terrorism Task Force is the "Manning Agency Screening Initiative" which provides limited database checks on the agencies providing the staff members to cruise lines operating globally. At present the "manning agencies" providing the staff for the various cruise lines are not screened by any United States law enforcement agency and are merely licensed to do business in their respective countries.



This is another initiative, from the FBI's own site....



On a related front, the FBI, working together with members of the cruise industry, has established a protocol for domestic cruise lines to electronically send all passenger and crew manifests to the Terrorist Screening Center six hours prior to departure. The Terrorist Screening Center enables the cruise line manifests to be run against a single terrorism database, instead of the numerous lists housed within a variety of government agencies. The FBI is also working towards establishing a permanent Maritime Liaison Agent (MLA) in each of its offices with significant port activity. The MLA position would streamline the flow of information coming from, and going to, the various ports around the country, with one consistent point of contact identified.


and finally this




As Director Mueller notes, "the globalization of crime—whether terrorism, international trafficking of drugs, contraband, and people, or cyber crime—absolutely requires us to integrate law enforcement efforts around the world. And that means having our agents working directly with their counterparts overseas on cases of mutual interest—not only to solve crimes that have been committed, but to prevent crimes and acts of terror by sharing information in real time."


www.fbi.gov...

All of this information is from the FBI's own site. Sorry, but big brother is already there folks. I just thought you would have dug a little yourself.

I hate to say this, but the reason that a honeymooner lost on a crusie ship is probably not first priority, is because the FBI is also actively fighting terrorism across the globe. I am sure that they are doing the best they can to help the family solve the case , and if you do a quick google search you wil find that they have with The cruise ship turned over all the information it had to the FBI, so now it is in their court.


This is also from the FBI site, there is no 'law', but there are loopholes in the Patriot act. THis explains the Legats

INTERNATIONAL OFFICES
In addition to its field offices across the United States, the FBI has 45 offices known as Legal Attachés or "Legats" located around the world. Legats are our first line of defense beyond our borders. Their goals are simple-to stop foreign crime as far from American shores as possible and to help solve international crimes that do occur as quickly as possible.

To accomplish these goals, each Legat works with law enforcement and security agencies in their host country to coordinate investigations of interest to both countries. Some Legats are responsible for coordination with law enforcement personnel in several countries. The purpose of these Legats is strictly coordination; they do not conduct foreign intelligence gathering or counterintelligence investigations. The rules for joint activities and information-sharing are generally spelled out in formal agreements between the United States and the Legat's host country. The entire worldwide Legat program is overseen by a Special Agent in Charge located at FBI Headquarters.


[edit on 19-12-2005 by esdad71]



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by esdad71
This is also from the FBI site, there is no 'law', but there are loopholes in the Patriot act.


So all those loopholes go right out the window when the patriot act is not renewed come December 31st. What then?

You already admitted there are no laws that allow require them to investigate so now you are using loopholes too justify your stance, now that is a good one.

I am sure they can only investigate crimes only when requested by the cruise line and of course the country where the ship is flagged and the agencies of the nations waters they are in if they are not in international waters.


As for that poor honeymooner that case smells so fishy it is beyond belief, yet Royal Caribbean insists it was an accident, I do not think so.


Wife Kicked husband in groin (verified by witnesses.

Complaints from passengers that they heard commotion in cabin not once but two times.

Blood Stains in Cabin, Blood Stains on the railing all verified by pictures and the amount of blood was not a trickle based on the amount shown in the photos.

Yeah Royal Caribbean it was an accident NOT!!!!

I am willing to bet if you worked for Firestone/Brigstone you would also insist their tires are safe huh?



posted on Dec, 19 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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I have tried my best to remain calm and give evidence of what is actually done and you are badgering me, wanting me to admit I am wrong that I 'believe crusies are safe'? Have you nothing better to do?

1. You asked for evidence, and I showed you from the FBI's own wbsite, how they are bringing down barriers for inter continental law enforcement. What else do you want? Do you want a wolrd police? Sounds like more NWO hoo-hah....


2. The royal Caribbean case is very fishy, and very active, Use google, I am tired of giving you links.

3. If you owned a resturant, and someone was abducted or killed, are you responsible? No. If they slip on the wet floor, sure, you are responsible. YOU cannot and should not be held responsible for anothers actions.Apply the same simple logic, and why should a cruise line be held responsible for the actions of someone else.

4. The only thing I will admit, is the great tan I got in Belize at thr Xanantunich ruins.

5. Removed personal comment

6. Why so negative towards cruising?



[edit on 20-12-2005 by sanctum]



posted on Dec, 20 2005 @ 12:38 AM
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whoooaaa.....you boys need to calm down.

i think you all have made very interesting and good points. as well as poorly sarcastic ones.

i also think that while this particular case is very very fishy, that you cant fault the entire system. aruba was a very very fishy case too, but i dont see any threads here telling people not to go there for vacation.

i'm no mod, but i do think everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath here, then move on with the discussion in a civil manner (and quite frankly, i'm disgusted that no mod has stepped in to restore civility).

snaf



posted on Dec, 20 2005 @ 12:58 AM
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I'm going to have to err on the side of caution and point out that a couple dozen people in a business that transports millions sure is just a drop in the bucket. Esdad has done a really good job of using concrete numbers to point out that cruising is a relatively safe way of travel. The number of people who dissapear on cruise ships is even smaller when you compare it to the number of children who go missing off the street ever day. Maybe we should turn out eyes a little more towards that and avoid this what I call "Natalee Halloway" syndrome where we turn a reactionary eye to the first high profile case of a pretty American going missing overseas.



posted on Dec, 20 2005 @ 07:28 AM
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I apologize if I offended anyone in this thread with any of my comments, but they were for individuals who know who they are, I would hope. I did not want it to get the best of me, and it did.

I however do stand by what I have stated, and again, I hope no one thinks I am trying to trivialize the death of that young man or anyone else.



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