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Hate torture? Consider boot camp

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posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 01:56 AM
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Originally posted by snafu7700
they most certainly have a choice in the matter.


Read the excellent post above.



oh yeah, lets take a small percentage of acts that were very wrong, in which the aggressors were properly punished, and apply it to the entire system.


But aren't they all at it? I heard there were far worse things going on as well.



oh, cut the melodramatics. the US has a very very good record compared to most other countries around the world


Nothing melodramatic in pointing out hypocrisy. Yes, the US has a better record, which is why it outsources so much of it's torture to those with less shining records. But still, just saying "we torture less" is still an excuse.



a few weeks? maybe you should do some more research on how many different types of survival training special forces get and how long they actually last.


I thought basic boot camp was quite short.



kidnapped? no, kidnapping is what these people are doing to innocent civilians who are trying to help their people. they get their heads chopped off for their good efforts at humanitarian aid. its kind of hard to kidnap someone who is carrying an ak47.


If you are talking about Iraq, I am sure you realise the criminal element is at work with those kidnappings.




posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by zoso28

Originally posted by Shaker
Torture in Boot Camp? Not really... If you want to know how it is through there, just ask someone that's been. That goes for any service. I do admit most of my time in the Air Force boot camp of 99 was boring. The hardest part was pushing myself to do more and more pushups, situps, and lowering my time on the running.

Odd thing is, when you ask people about it, you're informed of the conditions there, yet volunteer to go anyway?

USAF "boot camp" does not really count here, no disrespect. The fact that you said you were bored is the giant red flag. You wont find any marines or army guys say they were bored, dead tired maybe, but not bored

[edit on 15-12-2005 by zoso28]

Well... Basic training is basic training. Every service does the same thing. It's just that the others (meaning apart from the air force) do more. I disagree about how it "doesn't count." The comparison here is between boot camp and torture. Well, the air force does have boot camp... so I guess my comparison here was my experience in the US air force basic training, which I personally thought was a joke, but still had a lot of people drop out... since I'm comparing an experience I had to what I know of torture, it does count.

Just clarifying here... No offense taken


BTW, torture is STUPID!!!!



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 04:11 AM
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Okay, for those who do not know, Boot Camp is not about screaming & yelling at you, to scream at you & insult you, just for the sake of it.

It may seem that way, at first, but in reality, the Drill Sergeant is there to help you in many ways.

A Drill Seargeant, is there to break you down, pyschologically. To be a pyschologist & to act as a Father figure, by breaking down all the barriers you've got mentally, from what you're mommy & daddy did to you, what you're boyfriend or girlfriend did to you, what you went through in highschool, in junior high, in elementary school. Then, they're there to build you back up after they've broken you down to your lowest possible point. They need you to grow up & be a man, because you're there to learn how to fight & possibly kill another human being. They're there to grab you & to build you back up mentally, physically, & in some ways emotionally.

They need you to learn how to drop all of your lifes issues, & get to your inner self. They also need to get you, to learn how to operate as a team, with your Battalion, your Company, your Platoon, or just your squad, & especially in a tight situation.

The point of all the yelling & screaming, is to make sure they are the dominant male in the area of being a teacher, to not let some idiot make smartmouth comments & screw up the whole class. Basically, you need to focus totally on the man, & listen to what He's saying, so you can learn & live after a possible major armed combat arena.

Yes, I've been through Boot Camp, & no I have not been to actual combat, but I understand that these are a few of the things that a Drill Sergeant is there for, for you.

By the end of Boot Camp, for Me, I looked past all the screaming & yelling, the sore muscles for being dropped for push-ups, the even sorer muscles for having My a@$ smoked, due to a screw-up of someone in the Platoon or Company, & I walked up to all 3 of My Drill Sergeants after Graduation, & thanked them all for what they did.

What did they do? Helped Me be a better Me.



[edit on 16-12-2005 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
The article is clearly sarcasm. McCain is hardly to be faulted for trying to do something to prevent further criminal abuse by servicemen, even the pentagon agrees that what was going on at garaib was illegal.


Sadly you are stating that US service personnel "torture" as a matter of course. That is offensive. McCain is a complete @#&#** and always has been. He personally almost blew up and air craft carrier shortly before he was shot down.........coincidence? I say NO.

The fact that Moron Bush made a deal to let this anti-torture garbage stand shows what a peice of garbage he is...........

Intel just took another "hit" just like it did from Clinton and Carter.

Now the McCain insane will be applied to boot camp, I promise you that. Game over america................



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by mOjOm

The American Military Volunteered to go invade a country and tell people how to live their lives backed by deadly force. So under your rationale it's justifiable for U.S. soldiers to be tortured or burned in the public square then I guess?!?!? But if that's the case why the hell do so many complain when our soldiers are abused??


i'm going to assume you didnt read my follow up post which explained the fact that the things being called torture by the liberal media are not even close to being actual torture, and are devices used every day to train our own military (as well as ignoring the posts from other ex-military members who are saying basically the same thing).



Plus, I fail to see how resisting an invasion from a superior outside military entity that is pre-emtively going to occupy and change your home, culture, Gov., structure, beliefs, traditions, etc. etc. makes for much of a choice. There was no option for "No Invasion" just the choice between how and in what manner you are to be chewed up and digested by the machine of war which is about to mow you down. With or Without Fighting Back.


while i do not disagree that we should not have invaded iraq to begin with, we are now at war, and the prisoners that we take get three square meals a day, and a copy of the quran (and incidentally, those wearing uniforms and fighting legally have long since been parolled). they may be interrogated, but not with torture....sleep deprivation maybe, but not real torture...burning, suffocation, dismemberment. again, that is the point here. the intentional dumming down of the word "torture" by the liberal media.



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy

Read the excellent post above.


i did...read my response above.




But aren't they all at it? I heard there were far worse things going on as well.


you care to provide some proof of these inflammatory remarks? again, a very small portion of troops did some very bad things and were punished. these kind of problems happens when you take a military trained to fight wars and try to make police and jailers out of them....a problem that is slowly being corrected via training.




Nothing melodramatic in pointing out hypocrisy. Yes, the US has a better record, which is why it outsources so much of it's torture to those with less shining records. But still, just saying "we torture less" is still an excuse.


again, have some proof of any of this?

you admit that we have an excellent record, and yet you are still arguing in the last quote above that you think all soldiers are doing the same thing? a little on the contradictory side, dont you think? pick an argument and stick with it.




I thought basic boot camp was quite short.



just arent going to research anything before you show your ignorance, are you? even after i pointed you in the right direction.

it depends upon the branch of service. and basic isnt only boot camp, its basic training for each individual job field. after the initial 2 months (3 for marines), riflemen go to additional weapons training which lasts an additional few months. those who opt for special forces go through an extended boot camp, followed by more specialized training in the things i mentioned in the last post...survival training, escape and evade, interrogation resistance, etc. thats the answer as simply as i could put it...of course, its much more complicated.




If you are talking about Iraq, I am sure you realise the criminal element is at work with those kidnappings.


that is exactly the point. they are not legal combatants, and arent subject to the same laws as soldiers. in fact, as i mentioned before, people in civilian clothing carrying weapons are legally spies and can be summarily executed. i think we've gone out of our way to treat them better than international law says we have to.



[edit on 16-12-2005 by snafu7700]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 04:14 PM
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Torture. Just what in the hell is torture? The deprivation of sleep and denial of a smorgasboard breakfast on a few Islamic militants hell-bent on taking the lives of innocent people around the world is called torture? Be for real! Our servicemen are trying to gather intel from these enemies of peace and freedom. Let them do their job and keep the media and the ACLU out of it.

At this site, you can view real methods of torture if you're not squeamish.

Here's another good one, though it is less graphic than the previous link.

*sarcasm on*Oh, the shame of us torturing these murderers of our women and children.*sarcasm off*

Hell, give them a ham or sausage biscuit without egg and cheese, now that's torture!



[edit on 16/12/05 by Intelearthling]



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 07:10 AM
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To Thermopolis- Torture in basic training-Have you been eating Alpo burgers????? You went through Marine Boot Camp???? Basic Training is the time where you learn how to be a soldier, airman, marine, sailor, etc. Since no one is soldier, airman, marine or a sailor before they get there, the military has to let that individual what the speific military service is all about. None of the service branches are democracies, nor can they be. You learn the military way or else. Let's face it, basic training isn't all that bad. YOU MADE IT. The military is around for two reasons, deturing wars and fighting wars. It's not a social club nor a grass cutting business or a trash collecting business. The military is a life or death business. Nowhere in civillian life does it compare.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by pfcret
To Thermopolis- Torture in basic training-Have you been eating Alpo burgers????? You went through Marine Boot Camp???? Basic Training is the time where you learn how to be a soldier, airman, marine, sailor, etc. Since no one is soldier, airman, marine or a sailor before they get there, the military has to let that individual what the speific military service is all about. None of the service branches are democracies, nor can they be. You learn the military way or else. Let's face it, basic training isn't all that bad. YOU MADE IT. The military is around for two reasons, deturing wars and fighting wars. It's not a social club nor a grass cutting business or a trash collecting business. The military is a life or death business. Nowhere in civillian life does it compare.


Thank you for making my point. If the media tries to apply the McCain maddness our military, the finest on the planet "Ever" America is doomed. The article posted infers that why stop at tortue application of the McCain BS....apply it to bootcamp...............

Game over OBL and the media have torn america apart.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 10:15 AM
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For me, Boot camp at Fort Knox was tough, but my big brother was a Marine and its a fact USMC boot camp is Hell.

I never considered boot camp "torture"...your taught to survive, you learn about Army regulations, to do your primary MOS and to take pride that your in the greatest organization on Earth, but I would think getting physically tortured in a small room and graduating boot camp is not a fair comparison.

Maximu§



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by LA_Maximus
For me, Boot camp at Fort Knox was tough, but my big brother was a Marine and its a fact USMC boot camp is Hell.

I never considered boot camp "torture"...


I think the point of this discussion is that there are those who claim that detainees at Gitmo, or in prisons in Iraq have been tortured, when in reality the treatment of our own military recruits is often as harsh or in some cases more so.

In other words, the term torture, really doesn't apply in either case, but then again you didn't go through Marine Recruit Training in the sixties, where the line between torture and discipline was often so fine that at the time a recruit wasn't so sure what was happening or what would happen.

In the end of course, it was all for the best. We survived and went to war to experience far greater hardships.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 11:32 AM
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Thank You Grady, but I know what the point of the discussion is....and what I said is "its not a fair comparison"

Boot Camp also instilled pride in me that I "made it" and that I survived 13 weeks of Hell (it does get easier towards the end)....I think we agree physical torture is a poor comparison to Boot Camp.

Please don't think Im being offensive, Ive always respected you.

Max



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 11:53 AM
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Grady!

You broke my heart!

I'd just naturally assumed a gentleman of your, well, mature and seasoned years would have been educated in the old country, the halls of tradition, the genteel environs of The Island.

Now I hear you're a Hollywood Marine.

Wipes away tear, shufles off into the sunset, inconsolable.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Now I hear you're a Hollywood Marine.

Wipes away tear, shufles off into the sunset, inconsolable.


Sorry, OTS. No one has any control over which MCRD he attends, but the fact is that there are no significant differences between either variety, even if PI graduates like to pat themselves on the back. One difference I have noted between the two however is that at PI training is suspended for heat and humidity. That never happens at San Diego. All other distinctions are imaginary.

A synopsis of recruit selection and training is contained herein:

www.tbs.usmc.mil... rine.doc+san+diego+vs+parris+island&hl=en&lr=lang_en" target="_blank" class="postlink">The Enlisted Marine



All subjects taught at both recruit depots are identical, although allowances are made in sequencing due to the geographic differences between the two recruit depots. Training for male and female Marines is identical except for the difference of the PFT [Physical Fitness Test]. Male and female recruits are segregated during training so they can focus on their transformation into Marines. Recruit training is divided into twelve weeks of training described in the table below.








[edit on 2005/12/17 by GradyPhilpott]



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