What is the big deal with denying the Holocaust?

Originally posted by Ghaele
The questions are;
How many jews lived in the world before and after WWII?

Academic sources, and reliable sources in general, will have slight variations, but the world population of Jews prior to the onset of WWII was between:

"Of the total number of 15,192,218 Jews in the world, 9,418,248 reside in Europe, 538,609 in Africa, 585,791 in Asia, 24,783 in Australasia, and 4,624,787 in America."

Numbers killed
Noncombatant Deaths in WW II

Where did they live? (to find out where they moved from and to)

Again, academic sources, and reliable sources in general, will have slight variations, but the vast majority of Jews lived in Europe prior to the onset of WWII. See the above quote and links.

How many of the dead jews died of diseases, bombing, wartime hardship and other causes than death camps? (then one might find out how many died in the death camps)

Probably very few died to bombings.
In Germany, pogroms began prior to 1939 [the official start of WWII with the invasion of Poland], starting with the defining of what a Jew was [ie: Mischling, etc] and then laying the ground work for persecution, removal of citizenship, Kristalnacht, with the passing of the Nuremburg Laws. With the invasion of Poland in 1939, this opened up the way for concentration [ie: the rounding up and transporting of Jews], taking the form of restricting Jews to ghettos. When Germany invaded Poland, the Polish Jews found, that could not be adequately moved to ghettos, etc were exterminated on site in mass wood and forest killings [ie: Babi Yar, etc] As the war progressed, Jews were then removed from the ghettos and transported to actual concentration, work, and death camps, as specified and called out for at the Wannsee Conference by Heydrich and others. So, all-in all, just in the period between the start of rounding up the Jews and transporting them to ghettos to eventual concentration camps, etc, numbers will vary on how many Jews actually died of starvation, bad treatment, etc. The numbers of Jews that died during the wood/forest mass killings has been from 500,000 to over a million plus. The vast majority of Jew exterminations happened in the 100+ concentration, work, death camps/factories.

Students of logistics who have given some attention to the charge that the Nazis, however evil-minded and however much they wished to do so, actually exterminated 4 to 7 million Jews in less than two years during a desperate two-front war which turned against Hitler at the very moment he is alleged to have set up his extermination program, contend that it would have been utterly impossible for them to have achieved anything like such a result.

Yeah, right. Link and source some names, Ghaele.
As mentioned, the mass killings began as soon as Germany invaded and occupied Poland in '39. Agreed that the vast majority of Jews killed occurred during a 2-2.5 year period, but there is a correlation here, and that is, as the war progressed, as the war turned for the worse against Germany, the more the Jews were hastily killed, and in priority, especially after the Wannsee Conference. Germany had already transported most Jews to the ghettos, as mentioned. The trouble logistics wise became when the Jews were being transported to the actual concentration, work, extermination camps late in the war, where military priority conflicted with Himmler's, etc. extermination plans. The logistics problem lasted thru-out the war. Nonetheless, most Jews were easily transported using occupied and captrued rail systems, other transportations, and forced marches.

Itwould have required so much more effort and manpower and would have brought such confusion and added strain to the already overtaxed transportation facilities that the Nazis could not have waged even a reduced one-front conflict . . .

Military history and legit Holocaust history eludes you, does it not? :shk:

By 1944, Allied bombing in the West and Russian victories in the East rendered the German situation much more desperate and placed ever greater strains on German war material, plant, manpower, and transportation. Hitler could not have diverted enough effort to the extermination of the Jews between November 1943, and May 1945, to have disposed of 6 million Jews without producing a virtual collapse of his whole war effort. . . .

Obviously what you are saying above has been proven to be wrong. Hitler had more than enough material, etc. to exterminate over 4-6+ Jews, all the while, being able to exterminate millions of non-Jews: Slavs, Russians, Gypsies, etc, etc, etc, etc.

The 6 million theme was picked up by President Truman early in his first administration, without anything but hearsay on his part, and has been so frequently repeated during the last decade that it is used almost automatically by journalists who have never made the slightest study of the subject. It has now become commonplace in journalistic lore.

Just as spread of mis-information and half-facts has become commonplace in and among antisemitics, white supremacy groups, Stormfarters, Holocaust deniers, and Holocaust revisionists propaganda and lore. Interestingly, Germany, with its still intact WWII records and documentations, has not attempted to debunk the number of Jews and non-Jews killed, huh?! Why is that? How freakin' strange, yet the parade of holocaust deniers merrily marches on....

All in all it is impossible to know how many died in the death camps.

Obviously, you, as with others of your type thinking and ilk, have forgotten that the Germans were and still are the world best record keepers, and everything you have asserted has been debunked by those very same German recorded records and documentations.

About the only think we can find out is that about 300 000 moved to UK and about the same number to Palestine (by 1947). In 1920 only a handful of jews lived in USA, but after WWII 30 % of the world jews were there. So millions of jews in Europe escaped the nazists.

Who is "we" and where is the link to your sourcing for all this that you assert? Your conclusions are bogus, half-fact, and in most cases, simply blatantly incorrect.

What we learned of WWI and WWII is not to let politicans lead us into war with each other, because people are not so different from each others as politicans want us to belive.

Again, who is "we"?






seekerof

[edit on 20-12-2005 by Seekerof]

As a Canadian, I never much understood why we handled the Zundel case as we did. He was held here for much of his time on a secret holding order, one that is in place primarily for terrorists, not thought criminals. Sure we have the hate mongering law, but I cannot think of one other person to be held, charged and/or deported under this law. However, I digress.

Personally I think freedom of speech is a right that should allow someone to deny the holocaust, agree that it happened but disagree with the total number of dead, or agree with the 'official' historical record.

What I would like to ask all those who believe holocaust denial is NOT a right under freedom of speech - why not put all your efforts towards jailing Bush and his neo-con cabal? I mean, they used their freedom of speech to LIE about WMDs in Iraq, and now thousands of innocents and troops are dead because of their outright lies. If it's an imprisonable offence to deny or question the holocaust, then jailing these buggers is a no-brainer, right?

Or do we accept that world leaders and their ilk do not have to answer to the same laws as the everyman?

Originally posted by jimmytango
As a Canadian, I never much understood why we handled the Zundel case as we did. He was held here for much of his time on a secret holding order, one that is in place primarily for terrorists, not thought criminals. Sure we have the hate mongering law, but I cannot think of one other person to be held, charged and/or deported under this law. However, I digress.

Personally I think freedom of speech is a right that should allow someone to deny the holocaust, agree that it happened but disagree with the total number of dead, or agree with the 'official' historical record.

What I would like to ask all those who believe holocaust denial is NOT a right under freedom of speech - why not put all your efforts towards jailing Bush and his neo-con cabal? I mean, they used their freedom of speech to LIE about WMDs in Iraq, and now thousands of innocents and troops are dead because of their outright lies. If it's an imprisonable offence to deny or question the holocaust, then jailing these buggers is a no-brainer, right?

Or do we accept that world leaders and their ilk do not have to answer to the same laws as the everyman?

yep thats what its come to and no one can see it! only guys at ATS.
One thing that concerns me is that it's seems a bit obvious that if they are so harsh with this guy , whether he's right or wrong, i mean it's like they want to keep him extra quiet,a cover up! and now the Iranians are almost saying' if you dont get off our case we're going to spill the beans' . i mean there's got to be something in it, why would these high profile people bother to make something up so unbelievable? although i didnt say i aggree with them, i dont want to be locked up for 25 years like that jewish guy that spilled the beans on the secret WMD in israel.
as someone said before, this is a conspiracy site, if you don't like conspiracy then go back to Fox news or CNN and leave us open minded folk to daydream.

Before you spout off supposed "facts" go find out yourself.

Visit a concentration camp. They are all over Europe, look for yourself.
Visit a Death Camp.
Talk to a survivor of the camps.
Talk to a Soldier who entered the camps.
See the evidence firsthand.
Feel the silence.
Feel the sorrow in those camps by seeing them firsthand.

Then tell me you still can deny.

Originally posted by pavil
Before you spout off supposed "facts" go find out yourself.

Visit a concentration camp. They are all over Europe, look for yourself.
Visit a Death Camp.
Talk to a survivor of the camps.
Talk to a Soldier who entered the camps.
See the evidence firsthand.
Feel the silence.
Feel the sorrow in those camps by seeing them firsthand.

Then tell me you still can deny.

why are you here? why don't you go on a Fox news? this is for conspiracists, you're no conspiracist!!! on ya bike!! stop wasting our time!

[edit on 23-12-2005 by 33degreesknight]

Originally posted by 33degreesknight

Originally posted by pavil
Before you spout off supposed "facts" go find out yourself.

Visit a concentration camp. They are all over Europe, look for yourself.
Visit a Death Camp.
Talk to a survivor of the camps.
Talk to a Soldier who entered the camps.
See the evidence firsthand.
Feel the silence.
Feel the sorrow in those camps by seeing them firsthand.

Then tell me you still can deny.

why are you here? why don't you go on a Fox news? this is for conspiracists, you're no conspiracist!!! on ya bike!! stop wasting our time!

[edit on 23-12-2005 by 33degreesknight]

I thought it was about Denying Ignorance?
I doubt there would be much of a following if every subject was labled a conspiracy!

Originally posted by pavil
Before you spout off supposed "facts" go find out yourself.

Visit a concentration camp. They are all over Europe, look for yourself.
Visit a Death Camp.
Talk to a survivor of the camps.
Talk to a Soldier who entered the camps.
See the evidence firsthand.
Feel the silence.
Feel the sorrow in those camps by seeing them firsthand.

Then tell me you still can deny.

This thread is about the right to free speech regarding the holocaust, not the details about the holocaust itself. When I turn on the radio and hear a syndicated radio host spouting off how Abu Gharib was a 'frat party' I think, "hmm he's sick but that's his right to say that." However when it comes to the holocaust, I can't even question the number that died, despite evidence that the official number of people who died at Auschwitz has been reduced over the years from
4 million to 1.5 million.

I can actually go to jail for recognizing this discrepancy, because that reduction would HAVE to affect the total number of dead from the holocaust. Why is this right? Why is this fair? This rule of 'silence in the face of historical fact' so as not to offend a group of people is detrimental to society as a whole.

50 years from now, shall we deny that no WMDs were found in Iraq, so as not to offend all those troops that were injured or the memories of those that died fighting there? How does the sensitivity of the relative few outweigh the need to know the truth for this and subsequent generations?

Because of the sensity of this subject I want to reiterate my stance - I don't deny the holocaust happened. Instead I recognize that there are some problems with the original 6 million number based on evidence and this evidence should be included when updating the historical record.

How many concentration camps were there in Germany and occupied Europe during the years 1939-1945? How many died in them? Give me your low estimate.

There were death camps designed for the purpose of exterminating people on an industrial scale in addition to these concentration camps. Give me your estimate of how many died in those camps in Eastern Europe as well.

Originally posted by jimmytango
I can't even question the number that died, despite evidence that the official number of people who died at Auschwitz has been reduced over the years from
4 million to 1.5 million.
I.

The number you use here even though you "can't question the number that died" using your low estimate of 1.5 M is for only ONE Death Camp. There were six of these Death Camps. Do the math.

As been stated here before many died outside of the camps in mass shootings, executions, just plain death and disease caused by the Nazi's tactic of herding people into ghettos. Again, how many died in these events?

The total number of civilians and prisioners of wars executed by the Nazi's is mind boggling. While people may feel the right to dispute the numbers, I have just the same right to speak for those who can no longer speak.

Never Forget

yea it is obvious to me also that after a few look at various websites that it's impossible to fake all those thousands of photos and interviews with GIs and prisoners. it was a nice conspiracy but not a lot of life in it , im moving back to concentrating on green aliens.

I believe there were more than 6 death camps. According to Wikipedia, there's a whole list of them. These camps were in Norway, Poland, Ukraine and other various places, not only germany. I believe there is enough evidence out there proving the mass murder of millions without much doubt.

List of Concentration Camps and suspected deaths.

The death numbers always change. Don't start the anti-semitism crap on me either because I am a jew

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

THIS is what is wrong with denying the Holocaust:

Twice in my life I have had the opportunity to speak with survivors of the holocaust. It is wrong to deny that it happened because that would be to deny profound, life changing events of two people that I knew. One that I spoke with opened his story by stating, "I survived the holocaust, and I can say that it has ruined my life.."

And lets ignore all the gas chambers made up to look like showers, and crematoriums, along with all the empty Zyklon-B canisters and mass graves.

Both of the survivors that I spoke with still had their serial numbers tattooed on their forearms

I believe that whoever denies the holocaust has chosen NOT to deny ignorance.

[edit on 2-1-2006 by BRCMontana]

i dont really see how any one can deny the holocaust when it was admitted to by the people who took part in it. but hey what do i know.

I am not denying that it did not happen I only question if as many people died by the nazi's or that they made things look worse by adding people on them not killed by the nazi's or people used several names used by people are counted as individuals not as one person using 4 names. so in stead of 1 person they counted 4 for one and the same person.
I know that it happent but why may you not look at it this way with out denying it happent?

how about the sovjet deadcamps? or the chinese deadcamps ..
many left winged activist are so agains rightwinged that they always use the dead camps against them but those left winged activist are mostly commies and those were always pro ussr but the ussr and all other comminist states have or had dead camps and the number which died in those camps all toghter is much higher thant the camps of wo2 but that doesn't mean I am saying that i deny the deadcamps of wo2 but I only like to put forward that there is only a one way vision on this. the other stories don't get attension.

I see no reason to doubt the number of victims who died at the hands of the butchers, and I see no reason to concoct reasons the numbers might inflated, nor can I guess why the numbers would be inflated.


As far as the victims of the left-wing butchers, tehy are not doubted. There inlies the difference. There are some people who want to destroy the Jewish people and they want to deny the Jews have been done wrong in the past. There are also those who prefer to simply think that the Jews are whining for no good reason. That way, they can deny the good reasons for the need of a Jewish Israel.
That, by the way, is the reason it is not only stupid, but dangerous to deny the holocaust.

Edited because of that typo I always see just as I hit the reply button.


[edit on 2-1-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

TC even after acknoledging that the jews have been hard done by according to history, what has this got to do with me?

Are the Israeli people owed any more than the people of africa who have been getting slaughtered for decades.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
TC even after acknoledging that the jews have been hard done by according to history, what has this got to do with me?

Are the Israeli people owed any more than the people of africa who have been getting slaughtered for decades.

What it has to do with you is that there has only been one HOLOCAUST, the one that occurred during WWII. Don't confuse or mix other genocides with the Holocaust, for there is no sense in comparing, and that, is an academic agreed upon consensus. In all technical play here, you are simply seeking to downplay one genocide because there were others. Granted there were others, but the Holocaust separates itself from the rest by the basis of the methods used to commit the genocide of the Jewish race.




seekerof

Many of these so-called jewish controlled countries in Europe have populations of Jews so small as to be unable to control a city block much less a country. Most scholars with any sort of integrity hold the estimate to be well over the 6 million mark, with the true actual number probably never to be known but probably approaching the 7 to 8 million mark.
A Jewish conspiricy to keep the cash cow going; what a reprihensible remark, though not the first time its been said. Yet how is the Holocaust an excuse for Isreal to commit atrocities, real or imagined (I take no position on these at this time and place) against the Palastinians? I very interested in hearing (reading) your reasoning behind this accusation.