What is the big deal with denying the Holocaust?

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posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 01:41 PM
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What I can't figure out is WHY there's quibbling over the estimate? "Sure, we thought it was Six Million plus....now we're not so sure about the 'plus' part."

Does anyone else see the STUPIDITY of that last statement? For arguement's sake, let's say we discover the actual number is HALF of that six million.

Gee, a mere Three Million Jews killed...well that certainly changes everything!!

Huh?




posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Research is your best friend.

Apparently, either you have no time for it or are simply enjoying spouting speculations, assertions, and half-facts.



Holocaust denial refers to the claims of a small number of individuals and groups, who argue that the Holocaust did not occur as it is defined by mainstream historiography. Key elements of Holocaust denial are the explicit or implicit denial that, in the Holocaust

The #1 hit on Google is?
Google

And my personal favorite:
Holocaust denial on trial





seekerof

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Seekerof]



And again you failed to show where he, in his own words, denied that the holocaust happened.

Thats because he never said that, and neither did any of the others.

They deny the six million figure, and many of the claims by Zionist revisionists.

No one made soap from Jews, and there was never any German order to kill Jews.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel
And again you failed to show where he, in his own words, denied that the holocaust happened.

I failed to do anything.
Your own ignorance be your guide and foundation.
Let the sources do the talking, k?
Refute these while your at it. Think they would put words in Zundel's mouth?
Zundel + "Holocaust never happened"





Thats because he never said that, and neither did any of the others.

In your own state of mind: delusional paradox.




They deny the six million figure, and many of the claims by Zionist revisionists.

Holocaust deniers deny more than the numbers, period.




No one made soap from Jews, and there was never any German order to kill Jews.

Not sure what drug your taking, but may need to stop using it.
Wannsee Conference.

Furthermore, the Jewish soap comment is a myth. The skin of Jews was used to make lampshades and improvised writing paper.

Good thing this site has the motto of Deny Ignorance, huh?








seekerof



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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I failed to do anything.
Your own ignorance be your guide and foundation.
Let the sources do the talking, k?
Refute these while your at it. Think they would put words in Zundel's mouth?


You still failed.

I looked at every link on that page.

NOT ONE contains his own words.

OTHER PEOPLE say thing like 'Zundel said'.

No direct quotes are to be found.

How pathetic an attempt by you to type a few words into google, and not see that what you claim is not there.

PROVIDE A QUOTE FROM THE MAN HIMSELF, not Zio-Propaganda.

As I said before, he never said it.

Admit you are wrong.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by ArchAngel

You still failed.

I looked at every link on that page.




"Results : 2,000 for Zundel + "Holocaust never happened". (0.31 seconds) "

You looked up 2,000 sites and read them?

I highly doubt that.

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Riwka]



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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It appears to me that a rationale for imprisoning a person for denying Shoah (since the jailers in Germany don't want it to happen again) is like imprisoning someone for denying that the attacks on the World Trade Center were carried out by islamofascist thugs.

Thre are actually people out there who believe that the holocaust never happened, and who believe that the islamofascists didn't bomb our country. Instead, it's all a Huge Secret Plot (probably led by the Insidious Jews) to lie about the holocaust and blame the Germans or to lie about their activities in the 9/11 activities and blame the Islamists.

I consider both of those groups (and there's a lot of overlap among them, I'm sure) to comprise sad and deluded individuals who are so wrapped up in the idea of Huge Secret Plots that they seem to have lost contact with reality. Nevertheless, the "9/11 as a Mossad or US government Plot" seems to be a lot more acceptable in some quarters than "the holocaust as a International Zionist PR Plot" or other rubbish. I am not sure why that is so.

One of the basics of a conspiracy site is that you're going to have people postulate hypotheses that are (in my opinion) both repugnant and stupid, such as "the Holocaust was a Secret Plot" and "9/11 was a Secret Plot".

(By the way, I think the "Moon landing was a hoax" or the "chem-trail" hypotheses, while stupid, are not repugnant per se.)

But in the final analysis, I don't think there's a rationale for jailing an idiot denying the holocaust, any more than I thing we should lock up someone equally idiotic who believes in "chem-trails" or a hollow Earth full of lizards.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 03:30 PM
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The whole argument about what he said and "why can't anyone prove what he said" is retarted. He wrote BOOKS on it. That is proof.

"Did 6 Million Really Die?" by Ernst Zündel in 1974
en.wikipedia.org...




But not to let generations of German people to be defrauded, and then to be vilified by films like Spielberg's Schindler's List. .. Ernst Zundel


Here is some more good information on him and what he has done / said.
www.adl.org...

I don't deny that the holocaust happened because my grandfather who fought in WW2 took part in liberating one of them. The mere fact that the official "count" couldn't be tallied properly makes the deed no less damning or horrible. There is alot more involved in Mr. Zundel then the simple fact that he denies the holocaust. Knowledge is power.... Like SeekerOf said.. try READING.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by ArchAngel

You still failed.

I looked at every link on that page.




"Results : 2,000 for Zundel + "Holocaust never happened". (0.31 seconds) "

You looked up 2,000 sites and read them?

I highly doubt that.

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Riwka]



I looked at all the ones on the first page.

How many posts do we have to go until you stop and admit that there is not one bit of evidence to support that Zundel said 'The Holocaust Never Happened'.

If there was you would have had a quote up already.

All I see is the words of Zionist finger pointers.

Show the quote or shut-up.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 03:42 PM
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I think some People "Fear" the past. And with good reason, I might Add.

But I think many have a knee jerk Reaction And Go over Board.

""""""""""'
There Is More Jews in the US. Then anywhere else in the World. And We "Don't" inprision KKK or others. For thier idiotic Beliefs.

Thus Another "jewish" conspiracy Bites the Dust.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 03:43 PM
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Denying the holocaust is incredibly naive and foolish, especially when there are still *living survivors* out there who can tell you that it happened. Some people might legitimately believe that it never occurred, but it's probably a very few. Most of the ones who claim to deny it, I think, are just trying to convince people to see it as something less terrible than it really was. Denying the holocaust is like denying that planes crashed into the WTC, or denying that Ronald Reagan was once president of the US, or denying that there was a war in Vietnam a few decades ago. It's utter foolishness, and five minutes of research in a library (or talking to someone who has experienced the events) should convince any rational person of the truth.

I will end with the words of a holocaust survivor whose story I personally heard while attending a symposium several years ago. Someone in the audience asked an Auschwitz survivor what he thought of people who denied the Holocaust. The guy's reply: "I would ask them where my brothers and sisters are, if the Holocaust didn't happen. I would ask them where my parents are, if the Holocaust didn't happen. What happened to all those millions of people who disappeared, if the Holocaust didn't happen?"



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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I failed.

I didn't want to get into a debate on weather or not it happened, I wanted to discuss why folks are being jailed for denying it and not for denying many other things.




posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by godservant
I failed.

I didn't want to get into a debate on weather or not it happened, I wanted to discuss why folks are being jailed for denying it and not for denying many other things.




Somewhere inside of my rant, I kind of alluded to why I think this. People who deny the Holocaust are trying to diminish it's significance, like that Iranian whose name I forget, that has been in the news recently. They aren't denying the Holocaust because they think it didn't happen; they are denying it because they are anti-Semitic. I think it would be comparable to a white American trying to claim that black slavery never happened. No one can possibly be expected to believe an absurd claim like that. The only purpose for claiming something so obviously false like that is to demean the victimized group, and that, I think, is what these Holocaust denyers are doing; demeaning the Jewish people and the others persecuted during those times, and most particularly, those who suffered/died as a result.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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People are jailed because they try to tell everyone else that the Holocaust did not happen. They are trying to change a historical truth into a made up conspiracy. History is written by the victors, someone said. It is also written by whatever records last long enough. If we have 300 records from holocaust deniers live 500 years and only 20 survivor accounts survive 500 years, which would you believe? Most would believe the deniers because more of their records survived. This is why it is important to jail deniers, their own personal beliefs don't change anything, it is when they get on talk shows, radio shows, cable tv, write books that refute survivor evidence etc. that makes it important to have it against the law to write untruth.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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The real people behind arresting people for holocaust denial are the same that almost solely blame Hitler for the atrocities. All those S.S. agents, many whom were at or involved in the Wannsee conference, scattered out and infiltrated the various aspects of different governments. With Hitler as a scapegoat for their descissions, its easier to stay hidden and keep the things theyve done quiet. So if they manipulate the systems to keep the holocaust as the textbooks know it they can stay hidden in a sense.

Just a thought.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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None of the reasons mentioned justify putting someone behind bars just because they have another opinion on a certain matter, even if it is a sensitive matter, like the holocaust.
I think the Holocaust happened, however I haven't looked that much into it, so I don't know for sure.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 06:19 PM
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But in the final analysis, I don't think there's a rationale for jailing an idiot denying the holocaust, any more than I thing we should lock up someone equally idiotic who believes in "chem-trails" or a hollow Earth full of lizards.



And what if, as demonstrated by the above failure to provide a quote, the accused did not ever deny the Holocaust?

If they only dispute the number of deaths, and the evidence used by the promoters are they denying it?

I'll bet that no one in this thread that is calling them 'holocaust deniers' has ever read any of their work.

Sure, they may have read some Zionist propaganda that quoted them out of context, but not ever the real deal from the source.

It goes hand in hand with their denialism.

Just the fact that they MIGHT be swayed keeps them away.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 07:12 PM
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To Yetichi: your statement praising people who "stand by their beliefs" may be a compliment by your standards but to me it is one of the best examples of human ignorance. The examples of why it might not be ahealthy to - stand by your beliefs - are innumerable; you can think of a bunch if you just give it a try.
godservant: Seekerof has your position pegged. One can only guiess where you get information such as you proffer.
The figure is somewhere around 18,000,000. The Nazis exterminated millions of ethnics and political opponets and rounded up millions of Jews and worked them until they starved then burned then in ovens built for that purpose.
To deny history and facts qualifies you for nothing more than fundamentalism and ignorance, but I repeat myself.
skep



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 08:11 PM
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Have a look at what the True Torah Jews have to say: The Brutal Zionist Role in the Holocaust


"If I am asked, "Could you give from the UJA moneys to rescue Jews, 'I say, NO! and I say again NO!"


Izaak Greenbaum -- head of Jewish Agency Rescue Committee
February 18, 1943



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 08:33 PM
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What's wrong with denying the Holocaust? I am not going to say what I really want to here, as I'd get banned from ATS.

Denying the Holocaust, would be like denying that the US ever won the War for Independance, or the Saddam Hussein slaughtering Iraqi's, or that color TV is worse than Black & White.

I know those weren't the best examples, but you cannot deny that something happened, especially as big a thing as the Holocaust.

Millions of people were slaughtered, for no reason. That's not something to deny, you never forget innocents being slaughtered, never.

If it were the Germans against the Jews, both sides with weaponry, there would be better justification for this thread maybe.



posted on Dec, 14 2005 @ 09:09 PM
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The topics getting alittle side track. The original topic poster was asking if theres a conspiracy to cover up facts or manipulate the facts of the holocaust, NOT if it happened or not, or if denying it is moral/bad/evil/ignorant/immature/ or innane.

So to bring us back on topic, lets get right to the subject.

Why is it a big deal that certain people question the legitimacy of certain aspects of the holocaust of the event in its entirity i.e. Why the need to arrest and defame otherwise notable writers for questioning something?

Is it a coverup?

Is the subject controlled by a group of people?

Is there a legitament reason to arrest and defame those who question the Holocaust?

dicuss.





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