Iranian President denies Holocaust ever happened.

Originally posted by crustas


So, what's the right number?

Ok, so I told a white lie when I said I was bailing this topic.
Wanted to try out my new bail the thread ava.

Anyhow, the numbers for Auschwitz-Birkenau are 900,000 to 1.6 million:

No one claims that 6 million people died at Auschwitz. Many died in other death camps, in the ghettos and in occupied Soviet territory. Estimates of the number of people who were gassed to death in Auschwitz vary, but the lowest is 900,000, and the highest about 1,600,000. It is obvious that the extermination and cremation facilities in Auschwitz could take care of such a number.

Holocaust Denial & The Big Lie

Bear in mind that those numbers are the numbers for murdered, killed, dead, not those who passed through it and survived or those that survived at time of liberation, etc. The numbers [4 million+/-] for victims may well be correct, because victims includes those that suffered and lived, those that suffered and passed thru, and those that were blantantly murdered/killed.

Read the plaques carefully in what they say:
One says "suffered and died."
The other says only "murdered."






seekerof

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Note that the Zionist Apologists never actually address the facts presented by the supposed holocaust deniers.

ArchAngel, anytime that you want to officially debate this within the great halls of ATS, you can present your holocaust denial evidences so as I can refute them and set your mis-guided subjective path straight.

seekerof

Why bother debating when I will only dismiss your evidence as Zionist propaganda, and you will dismiss mine as being holocaust denier propaganda?

Are you denying that the so-called holocaust deniers do not deny that the holocaust happened?

What harm does it really cause, and if it really is not true why not allow open discussion in these countries?

You don't make laws to silence words unless there is something to hide.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Why bother debating when I will only dismiss your evidence as Zionist propaganda, and you will dismiss mine as being holocaust denier propaganda?

So you openly accept a debate over the actuality of the Holocaust and the numbers of people murdered?

Are you denying that the so-called holocaust deniers do not deny that the holocaust happened?

Answer the question yourself. Self evident what I am refuting here.

What harm does it really cause, and if it really is not true why not allow open discussion in these countries?

The harm is that none of what the holocaust deniers present is historical or of the magnitude to compare with the research that has already been academically done on the Holocaust. Nothing but lies. You believe in lies and fairy tales, right?

You don't make laws to silence words unless there is something to hide.

As I have said to you before: you subjectively run your mouth when you should be objectively researching. As such, try researching why there are holocaust denial laws in Europe, k? You then stipulate the garbage rhetoric of 'why silence if nothing to hide,' all the while, fail to comprehend that there is nothing to hide, and yet, HOLOCAUST DENIERS do have but one agenda: to HIDE THE TRUTH of what really happened during the Holocaust.
Nothing but neo-nazi, antisemitic propaganda and hate rhetoric, which you, my dear ArchAngel, are gladly soaking and immersing yourself in! More power to ya, mate. Back your rhetoric up with facts, not half-facts.





seekerof

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Seekerof]

HOLOCAUST DENIERS have but one agenda: to HIDE the truth of what really happened during the Holocaust.

How are they trying to hide a single thing?

They are not denying anyone a right to free speech.

The ones persecuting them are trying to hide what they are saying.

Their one agenda is to spread the TRUTH that holocaust promoters try to hide.

Lets debate then oh one of wonderous Holocaust denial knowledge?

Holocaust deniers hide from the truth and thus look to hide the truth. You make it like these type people are actually doing legitimate and academic objective work. Hardly. Their work is not recognized by any legitimate academia institution.

You can play semantics all day long on who is hiding something, but the problem here, as par on this issue, is that you lack valid facts. Bring them forth....






seekerof

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Seekerof]

Having known several people who survived the extermination camps (my first job was at a Jewish nursing home, for the record I am not Jewish BTW), and many others who can list whole trees of their family that died in them, I reserve a particular place in my list of the contemptible for Holocaust deniers.

Whatever one's position is on the policies of the Israeli .gov, don't let it cloud your view of history. Millions of Jews (and millions of gypsies, gays, and others) died in those camps. The historical record is unambigious, and the arguments of the deniers are paper thin.

As for Iran's president, he is clearly a nut.
Rather fortunate that he has little real power, the Mullah's do, and even the nutty Mullah's think he's a whackjob now...

Seekerof:

Can you answer me a few question, please?

1. Why is the jew holocaust the most known and publicized in the world, if not the only holocaust for the majority of people? There were others. Example 7000 000 death Ukrainians in Soviet Empire 1932-33 by Stalin.

2. Why after 60 years after the war the gold has not returned to the owners?

3. Why most of holocaust documentaries i have seen are made by jews?

4. Why was not given land for jews in European soil?

5.Why the catholic church didn't action, when they new about the concentration camps and the final solution?

6.Why does people think Judas betrayed Jesus?
When Judas went to talk with the Romans was to find a way out to save Jesus and not the opposite.



Crustas

1 million, 4 million or 6 million, good god, who cares? They're all horrific. And any accounting disagreement doesn't mean that there wasn't a systematic slaughter of Jewish, Gypsy and other peoples.

I'd be interested to find out what sort of percentages of people deny the holocaust by age groups. I have a feeling that it's only a generation who weren't on this earth when this happened.

Originally posted by crustas
1. Why is the jew holocaust the most known and publicized in the world, if not the only holocaust for the majority of people? There were others. Example 7000 000 death Ukrainians in Soviet Empire 1932-33 by Stalin.

As it was once explained to me by a graduate professor that I asked a like question to when I took a Holocaust graduate class under him, [ad lib here], 'the Holocaust is cited or remembered or memorialized because of two things: the magnitude of it and the methods used.' There is no denying that there were other holocausts [genocides], but the Holocaust is simply remembered or memorialized because of what I cited a graduate professor had asserted. After taking the class and after doing the extensive research required for that class, I came to believe that he was correct.

2. Why after 60 years after the war the gold has not returned to the owners?

I think that matter is being resolved or has been resolved. To be honest, I am not sure and will try to see what I can find out on this.

3. Why most of holocaust documentaries i have seen are made by jews?

Well, most hardcore conspiracy theorists or those who are anti-Jew/Israel will assert that it because all media is owned and run by Jews. In truth and all seriousness, and opinions will vary, I am not sure why. You have to understand that many Jews will never ever forget this, and thus, seek to make sure that such never happens again. Maybe that is why they are producing such. I do know that alot of the old actual film footages taken and used for documentries today was taken by the liberating forces: Russia, US, and the UK.

4. Why was not given land for jews in European soil?

Not sure. Remember that at the time of the Holocaust, most of the worlds population of Jews lived in Europe. After the war, after the Holocaust, I think it was quite natural that most Jews still living in Europe wanted to leave. Opinions will vary.

5.Why the catholic church didn't action, when they new about the concentration camps and the final solution?

The Catholic church was an appeaser and turned a blind eye to what Hitler was doing. Hitler and the Catholic Church had made an agreement, The Vatican Concordat. Further, the Catholic Church was antisemitic. Opinions will vary.

6.Why does people think Judas betrayed Jesus?
When Judas went to talk with the Romans was to find a way out to save Jesus and not the opposite.

He revealed who Jesus was and where, as Jesus predicted he would do.
Opinions will vary.








seekerof

[edit on 14-12-2005 by Seekerof]

What does this speech have to do with the War on Terror? This and even his more violent rhetoric is not terrorism related.

Originally posted by Jadette
I have a feeling that it's only a generation who weren't on this earth when this happened.

That I believe is the root of the problem. It has been 60 years and those that were there who witnessed with their own eyes are dying out. Soon there will be no witnesses left. We live in an age where video, pictures and documents can easily be doctored so it is harder to believe the info that is presented. Unfortunatley this plays well into the hands of those who wish to erase or ignore history for thier own agenda. If certain facts do not support what they are trying to accomplish then they fight to discredit
those facts or ignore them altogether. It is why we are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes! Instead of accepting it and saying collectively what can we do to prevent it ever happening again, it is denied!

[edit on 14-12-2005 by WHOFLUNGGUM]

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Note that the Zionist Apologists never actually address the facts presented by the supposed holocaust deniers.

They label them anti-semites, throw a few other harsh terms around, and walk away.

No, they don't dare touch the facts because then the web of lies that are the foundation of understanding begin to fall all around them, and people just can't deal with it.

So they go into their own denialism to escape.

Reverse a few words and what you wrote perfectly describes yourself and those that agree with you. So what have you proved?

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM

It has been 60 years and those that were there who witnessed with their own eyes are dying out.

Over one million children under the age of sixteen died in the Holocaust.

external imageThe former Chief Ashkenazi Rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Meir Lau, born 1937, is the youngest survivor of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. Our mothers and fathers, our brothers and sisters our grandparents are no strangers, but our family members. Those who survived, told us of incomprehensible horrors of the death camps—pain, starvation, and a loss of human dignity. One reason the Shoah is documented by many Jews is very simple: we wanted to know where and how and the familiy members died, at least to recite the Kaddish on their Jahrzeit.


[edit on 14-12-2005 by Riwka]

WWII was all about conquering the world and not about exterminating jews.

Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe is a book of 559 pages;
the six volumes of Churchill's Second World War total 4,448 pages;
and de Gaulle's three-volume Mémoires de guerre is 2,054 pages.

In this mass of writing, which altogether totals 7,061 pages (not including the introductory parts), published from 1948 to 1959, one will find no mention either of Nazi "gas chambers," a "genocide" of the Jews, or of "six million" Jewish victims of the war.

Richard Lynn
www.rlynn.co.uk...

---

Zionist 'jews' lie about the Holocaust. The 825 000 jews that died died because of tyfus, allied bombing and on Russian side of starvation (the Russians denyed red cross to distribute food to the camps).
6 is a religious number and a religious number is all it is. I must point out that the zionists tried the bluff about 6 million dead jews after WWI too, but their bluff was called and they had to give it up.

Read the '10 questions to zionists' at www.jewsagainstzionism.com... for more comments about zionist claims. There you will see that Real Jews consider the zionists Evil and anti-jewish. It is also funny to note that the jews have the same wiew on the zionist state as the Iranian president! It is obvious to me that the Iranian persident know that it is the zionists that are a problem. He did call it 'zionist state' and not 'jewish state' like the misguided christians of EU and USA, who still have not learned the difference between the two (zionist and jew).

Originally posted by crustas
The plaque that displays at the Auschwitz camp from 1948 until 1989 (note the "4 million" victims).


The second plaque is ncurrently on display at Auschwitz.

This shows a complete lack of knowledge of teh subject. It is obvious you just read a few googled sites and know nothing of the wider history of WWII.

The reason that it says 4 million is because that's what Soviet estimates were. Guess what, Poland was under Soviet domination until 1989 - did you know that ?
When commuism fell, a more accurate number replaced what the SOviets had estimated. That being said, no one will ever know the exact numbers of people killed.

BTW, I suppose you're also denying the existence of Dr Mengele and the experimetns he conducted.

[edit on 14-12-2005 by mad scientist]

Anyone ever read the book Night or The Cage. The former by Elie Weisel, and the latter by Ruth Minskey Sender. Very interesting biographies. Tells their story of surviving the holocaust. Weisel won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1986. I've read both books, and they were both very powerful, the descriptions of the brutality were hard to read without wincing. Takes a brave person to right about such events that they themselves experienced. This Almejada(sp?) is just talking to rally the people behind him, no more, no less.

I don't think it takes a genius to work out why certain people want to 'play down' the Holocaust just as there are those who will always take an opposite view.

The fact is WW2 got around 60million people killed all over the world,

Jewish people were specifically targeted in the murderous slaughter (as many of the camp personnel and SS administrators admitted.......several proudly......and even Speer couldn't end his days without an admission in the end - although he had privately testified to an Israeli court, which must have caused a certain degree of astonishment to the deniers.
See Gita Sereny's book 'Albert Speer: His battle with the truth).

But that is another issue.

My question here is since when did this idiot's outburst about the Holocaust justify a major war?

Sorry to bring matters back on topic but really folks, there are those talking as if this fool's statement(s) justify another serious new actual war, er, since when?

Why do some people here insist on believing the political position (and the powers etc that go with it) of the Iranian President are similar to the US President?
The guy is simply not 'the power' in Iran.

In any event, how on earth is a new war meant to help the already appalling ME situation?
How on earth is it meant to be in any way 'ok' or at all 'acceptable' or 'desirable' in today's strife-torn world?

Peace and good will to all men?
It seems it doesn't take much to get those salivating for a new war to take leave of their senses, even at this time of year, hmmmm?

do jewish people forget about how the The Rothschilds (Jewish family) ,Prescott Bush and Averell Harriman (Jewish) funded hilter ?. So in essences the jewsih people founded there own destruction. I really do for sorry for the average jewish familys that where wiped out. so a few evil zionist could get there promised state.

Originally posted by helium3
do jewish people forget about how the The Rothschilds (Jewish family) ,Prescott Bush and Averell Harriman (Jewish) funded hilter ?. So in essences the jewsih people founded there own destruction. I really do for sorry for the average jewish familys that where wiped out. so a few evil zionist could get there promised state.

LOL, ok Im wondering why you put Bush in there seeing he isn't jewish. Seems we have a troll
Now why do you dislike the jews ? Jewish girlfriend dump you or something ?