If course I am simplifying this whole thing by generalizing it based on Christian ideology. If I went into Buddhism, Judism, or Satanism, then this post would have still reiterated the same points that I mentioned.

Originally posted by VelvetSplash
So, you consider God to be creator of the Earth (and the Universe?), and this creation was as simple as a magical 'poof', the click of fingers?

I wonder where did this assumption come from? Firstly that God created the world, and secondly that it was an effortless whim?

What assumption? Like I said, based off of the Chrisitan ideology, this is the basis of Creation. Perhpas it was not a quick "poof", per se, but in the grand scheme of things, yes I believe it was fast.

At any rate, God from our Western beliefs, or God based on Egyptian beliefs or Islamic beliefs...does it really matter? God is God is God.
It is the religion that makes them different.




[edit on 19-12-2005 by Rouschkateer]

Originally posted by Rouschkateer
does it really matter? God is God is God.

But that was my point, God ISN'T God.

The religions may like to peg down what God IS, but they can't say conclusively that their ideas are correct. So, we can either accept, or reject their frames of reference.

I don't wish to sound evasive, or 'new age', but God is really what you think it is.

God can be a judgemental bearded old man, sat on a cloud, dishing out entrance to Heaven here, and condemnation to eternal Hell there - or it can be an indefinable higher state of consciousness, of which you are part of, like a drop in an ocean, thus we are all Sons of God.

Which image is right (if any?) - That's upto you. Before you reject or dismiss the notion of higher intelligence, at least give yourself the chance to ponder exactly what properties that intelligence might consist of.

Originally posted by VelvetSplash
God can be a judgemental bearded old man, sat on a cloud, dishing out entrance to Heaven here, and condemnation to eternal Hell there - or it can be an indefinable higher state of consciousness, of which you are part of, like a drop in an ocean, thus we are all Sons of God.

Which image is right (if any?) - That's upto you. Before you reject or dismiss the notion of higher intelligence, at least give yourself the chance to ponder exactly what properties that intelligence might consist of.

I have considered that path as well...sort of like self-enlightenment, but without the ultimate being to guide you there.

If someone defines higher intelligence, be it God or something else, then what would my place be? What knowledge could I possible gain? What answers would I finally receive? These questions are ones I ask now.

If I could fathom the possibilities of that knowledge, then I wouldn't be where I am now. I think that the answers will be above any sort of conscious level. That, and I don't believe in an afterlife. I believe that once you are gone, that's it. No soul, no Heaven, no limbo. Just ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

I'm going to have to read into that one. I have never heard of such a thing, and I will have to take it slow, as it is quite complex. At least, at first glance it is.

So is that sort of thing what you believe in, VelvetSplash?

Originally posted by Bob LaoTse
Those who "debate" the possibility of the existence of god(s) do so because they have a personal stake in the issue. Atheists and theists are more alike than they are different-- both have chosen an answer to a question for which there is no evidence to support any answer and have defined themselves, at least in part, by the answer they've chosen. If their self-image is to be stable, they must convince themselves of the validity of the answer they've assumed.

Many, on both sides of the issue, simply rely on faith. They "know" they're right, and leave it at that. But there are some who can't just let it go-- for whatever reason, they must continue to try to convince themselves that they're right. The most common ways to do this are to proselytize and to attack opposing beliefs. They appear to believe that if they can get others to believe as they do, or if they can successfully discredit opposing beliefs, it will lend credence to their own beliefs.

Agnostics don't have to go through any of this. Agnosticism is the only viewpoint on the issue that's demonstrably and wholly true. Agnostics KNOW that they don't know if there is/are god(s). They're wholly and completely secure in their absolute certainty that they truly don't know. They never have even a moment's doubt about the complete lack of empirical evidence to support either view, and thus have no need to either attempt to convert others to their view or to discredit the views held by those others. No other view can even begin to pose any threat to the absolute certainty of agnosticism.

While your declairing your Agnosticism, are you not falling into the same thing that atheists and theists are charged with doing? Your posts seem to me like you believe your beliefs or lack there of are the "only" and "true" way to live.

The point I am trying to make is that every man and every woman has an opinion even if it is to not have one. With that opinion comes the belief that they are in fact right and although their thoughts may change or move around, they still always believe they are right. Who doesn't have an opinion on a subject and who doesn't think theirs is the correct one. So people just need to stop whining about Christians trying to force their views upon them because in fact they are doing the same things to the Christians.

Everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks they are right. It's just the way it is.

Originally posted by Forgiven

While your declairing your Agnosticism, are you not falling into the same thing that atheists and theists are charged with doing? Your posts seem to me like you believe your beliefs or lack there of are the "only" and "true" way to live.

Not at all. I don't believe that agnosticism is either the "only" or the "true" way to live. I do believe that it is the most liberating viewpoint, since it doesn't rely on belief and instead only deals with facts. Since I make no claim either way about the potential existence of god(s), I'm entirely open to any evidence either way that might come to light. I have no vested interest in either view, so neither view is any sort of threat or burden or source of frustration to me. I really couldn't care less what other people believe, and if it works for them, that's fine. The only issues I ever have with other people's beliefs is when they attempt to prove that those beliefs are factual, and when they attempt to impose those beliefs on others. Both of these are not reflections of the belief itself, but of some of the people who hold those beliefs.

My original post here extolling the virtues of agnosticism was not meant to even imply that I believe it's the only way to live-- it was in the context of the original post on this thread, which was addressing the tendency among believers on both sides to fight with each other about the relative merit of their beliefs. My intent was to show how it is that much of that debate is meant to bolster their faith, and that agnostics, being without faith, have no need to engage in any of that.



The point I am trying to make is that every man and every woman has an opinion even if it is to not have one. With that opinion comes the belief that they are in fact right and although their thoughts may change or move around, they still always believe they are right. Who doesn't have an opinion on a subject and who doesn't think theirs is the correct one. So people just need to stop whining about Christians trying to force their views upon them because in fact they are doing the same things to the Christians.

Everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks they are right. It's just the way it is.