The Real Freemasonry told by Masons (Dormer)

This is a detailed explanation and history of Freemasonry as told by THE DORMER MASONIC STUDY CIRCLE:

www.mt.net...

www.masonicworld.com...

www.mackaos.com.au...



This is the first time I feel I have found something real from the mouths of Masons explaining what Freemasonry is really about. There is so much here that you might find you now feel good about the Masons or your worst fears may be validated but at least there is something to work with besides denials.

If you liked that you'll find a lot more information at places like

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

www.thefreemason.com...

What the heck is a dormer mason anyways?

Originally posted by Nygdan
What the heck is a dormer mason anyways?

I don't think it's "dormer mason" Dormer is just a name of a masonic study group.

from www.dormermsc.org...

It was in the belief that modern Freemasonry is the successor to the ancient Mystery Systems, and that its worth as a spiritual and moral force in society can be developed only through an increased understanding of its own system, that the Dormer Masonic Study Circle was founded on the 13th January 1938. Its founders laid no claim to authority other than that which arises from integrity and sincere belief. Its policy is guided by a Governing Council, but its members are from many Constitutions in most of the world, the only restriction being that applicants for membership must be Master Masons who owe allegiance either to the United Grand Lodge of England or to a Grand Lodge which is in fraternal relationship with that of England

This thread is moving slow as a Towel Mill clock. Those are some interesting links People dying, you always have some interesting info to share. Thanks for those great links.


I don't believe I have ever heard of Dormer Masonry Cug. There doesn't seem to be a lot of info on the link you posted sir.

Originally posted by Trinityman
If you liked that you'll find a lot more information at places like....

First let me make an accepted usage of "Ancient Wisdom" to be an umbrella term for this thread for all the occult, esoteric, Kabala, Gnostic, Egyptian, Mystery Schools etc., etc. . Although these obviously are not synomous terms I need a short form. I'll just call it AW.

I have seen many specific Masonic denials as well as non-responses to inquirys and charges of association to AM. Some specific ones have been to Templar and Rosicrucian connections. Judging by the Dormer circle cited here it becomes very obvious there is a rich history of a huge body of AM in the Masonic heritage. It has been difficult it seems for many Masons to just acknowledge it. Could this be a fundamental Masonic secret even though it is not really hidden?

I am initially just trying to define the scope of Masonry otherwise discussions are rather pointless.

Originally posted by Nygdan
What the heck is a dormer mason anyways?

There is some intersting stuff in the quotes if you can find time to read them:

-In the light of the foregoing, it will be seen that Freemasonry depends for its life and strength on the Ancient Wisdom teaching which is enshrined in it; a Teaching designed to answer those eternal questions as to the why, the whence, and the whither of all human existence.

-We can now proceed to judge of what supreme importance the influence of the Rosy Cross was to Speculative Freemasonry. The mysteries of the Rosy Cross were the Greater Mysteries, as we know from the testimony of those who were admitted to them, and the contact of the Rosicrucians with Freemasonry undoubtedly resulted in the gradual importation into Masonic Lodges of teaching derived from more hidden and exalted sources. Many students of the Craft system are unaware of the great value of literary works attributed to Rosicrucian authorship. These works call for our serious study because their contents are directly related to that body of science and doctrine concerning human nature and its perfectibility, which the concealed Founders of the Craft system, subtly and under deep veils of phrasing, planted in the soil of Masonic ritual.

-We must emphasize at this stage that our present Masonic system is not one coming from remote antiquity. There is no direct continuity between us and the Egyptians, or those ancient Hebrews, of whom we have already spoken. What is extremely ancient in Freemasonry is the spiritual doctrine which is concealed within the architectural phraseology of the Ritual;

I get confused here isn't AM encompassing Egyptian and ancient Hebrews? I also remember a mason on ATS making claioms that Rosicrutions never existed.

[edit on 14-12-2005 by peopledying]

Originally posted by TgSoe
This thread is moving slow as a Towel Mill clock. Those are some interesting links People dying, you always have some interesting info to share. Thanks for those great links.


I don't believe I have ever heard of Dormer Masonry Cug. There doesn't seem to be a lot of info on the link you posted sir.

I had to drop it for a bit right after I started it, I try to find time to contribute more.

Originally posted by TgSoe
This thread is moving slow as a Towel Mill clock. Those are some interesting links People dying, you always have some interesting info to share. Thanks for those great links.

I had to drop it for a bit right after I started it, I'll try to find time to contribute more. It's funny sometimes you have to go on your intuition when you read a piece even if you don't have the resources to prove it to yourself.

Here is another slant on the pre-1717 origions about which I was starting to feel Masons wern't really giving good information:
www.templarhistory.com...

THE STRICT OBSERVANCE

The Rite of the Strict Observance is based on "Templar Masonry." Its founders claimed that all Templars were Masons, that they founded - and that the time had come to proclaim it to the world, and to have the Order of the Temple given back all of its former possessions, and to have all of its former powers restored to it. But what is the legend of "Templar Masonry"? ........

The Order of Masonry was instituted by Godfrey de Bouillon, in Palestine, in 1330, after the defeat of the Christian armies, and was communicated only to a few French Masons, some time afterwards, as a reward for the services which they had rendered to the English and Scottish Knights. From these latter true Masonry is derived. Their Mother Lodge is situated on the mountain of Heredom, .........

There are other secrets in Masonry which were never known among the French, and which have no relation to the Apprentice, Fellowcraft and Master Degrees, which were constructed for the general class of Masons. The high degrees, which developed the true design of Masonry and its true secrets, have never been known to them.

[edit on 14-12-2005 by peopledying]

Originally posted by peopledying

Here is another slant on the pre-1717 origions about which I was starting to feel Masons wern't really giving good information:
www.templarhistory.com...

You might want to check out this page on the same site.
www.templarhistory.com...

In reference to the masonic connects it states

This set of speculation whether grounded in fact or merely wishful thinking on the part of the Fraternity, has met with acceptance by many Freemasons world wide. By the same token many Freemasons have rejected it as inaccurate.

and on this page www.templarhistory.com...

A common held theory regarding the continuation of the Knights Templar under the guise of the Freemasons has been gaining in popularity. As a Freemason myself, I can state that the theory is not entirely accepted among members of the craft. Many have climbed onboard the Templar origin wagon, while many hold to the old belief that we are descended from the Medieval or even Biblical stone cutters. Those that follow the Stone Masons theory are generally older Brethren who have a hard time accepting anything new. For those who accept the Templar theory, it is largely held that the Templars fled to Scotland under the guise of stone cutters and established Masonry as a continuation, albeit a covert one of their order.

The thing I would like to stress is that many fraternal orders have some history that is pure myth, and they base many of their rites around said myths. And as time goes by some myths are discarded and others come to the forefront.

Originally posted by Cug

The thing I would like to stress is that many fraternal orders have some history that is pure myth, and they base many of their rites around said myths. And as time goes by some myths are discarded and others come to the forefront.

That is what I took away from that site as well and is why it seems a little pointless to get to bogged down in details which can't be priven absolutely. I am trying to establish a birds eye view on the subject to get the general drift of how Mason fit in with history.

This site is very useful fot that purpose:
www.freedomdomain.com...
Illuminati of Bavaria (Founded 1776)
The Writings of Adam Weishaupt and select Letters of
Correspondance between Illuminati Members :


-"We must allow the underlings to imagine (but without telling them the truth) that we direct all the Free Mason lodges, and even all others, and that the greatest Monarchs are under our guidance, which indeed is here and there the case."

- "The great strength of our Order lies in it's concealment, let it never appear in any place in it's own name, but always covered by another name, and another occupation. None is fitter than the three lower degrees of Freemasonry, the public is accustomed to it, expects little from it, and therefore takes little notice of it. Next to this, the form of a learned or literary society is best suited to our purpose, and had Freemasonry not existed, this cover would have been employed; and it may be much more than a cover, it may be a powerful engine in our hands. By establishing Reading Societies, and subscription libraries, and taking these under our direction, and supplying them through our labours, we may turn the public mind which way we will.""


- "I declare and I challenge all mankind to contradict my declaration, that no man can give any account of the order of Freemasonry, ...... which does not leave the mind in total uncertainty on all these points. Every man is entitled therefore, to give any explanation of the symbols and a system of the doctrine that he can render palatable. Hence have sprung up that variety of systems, which for twenty years
has divided the order. The simple tale of the English, and the fifty degrees of the French, and the Knights of Baron Hunde, are equally authentic, and have equally had the support of intelligent and zealous brethren. These systems are in fact but one. They have all sprung from the Blue Lodge of three degree;...

-We see with what keenness and zeal the frivolous business of Freemasons is conducted, ........ The order will thus work silently, and sucurely, and though the generous benefactors of the human race are thus deprived of the applause of the world, they have the noble pleasure of seeing their work prosper." -- Adam Weishaupt

- Spartacus (Weishaupt) to Cato (Zwack, A Lawyer)
"..... A chosen few recieved the doctrines in secret, and they have been handed down to us (but frequently almost buried under rubbish of man's invention) by the Freemasons. These three conditions of human society are expressed by the rough, the split, and the polished stone....... Those who possess this knowledge are indeed Illuminati. Hiram is our fictitious Grand Master, slain for the REDEMPTION OF SLAVES; the Nine Masters are the Founders of the Order. Freemasonry is a Royal Art, inasmuch as it teaches us to walk without trammels, and to govern ourselves."
Adam Weishaupt

-Spartacus (Weishaupt) to Cato (Zwack, a lawyer) (Speaking of the Priests Degree)
"One would almost imagine, that this degree, as I have managed it , is genuine Christianity, and that it's end was to free the jews from slavery. I say, that Freemasonry is concealed Christianity. ....... You may think that this is my chief work; but I have three other degrees, all different, for my class of higher mysteries, in comparison with which this is but child's play; ......It is the key to history, to religion, and to every state government in the world."

-but we must make the secret doctrines of Christianity be recieved as the secrets of genuine Free Masonry.

-The Jewish theosophy was a mystery, like the Eleusinian or the Pythagorian, unfit for the vulgar, and thus the doctrines of Christianity were committed to the adepti, in a disciplina arcani. By these they were maintained, like the vestal fire. They were kept up, only in hidden societies, who handed them down to posterity; and they are now possessed by the Genuine Freemasons."



[edit on 14-12-2005 by peopledying]

I've got to say that I am not so familar with masons denying that masonry has connections to AW. There is an arguement as to how strong that connection is of course. Some people, masons included, will say that masonry is a direct continuation of the Mystery Cults of the roman era. Others will claim that it takes in that information in the 1700s (along with other information), and makes a system out of that, but has no actual direct connection (likesay a line of masters educating initiates through the centuries).

The same goes with the connection to Templarism. Some, masons and non-masons, claim that when the Templars were on the run, a group of them fled to scotland, because the pope and king of france had less influence there, and that they disguised themselves as simple stonemasons when doing this. Then they continued their Templar group, but changed it to reflect stonemasonry. Others, masons and non-masons, would note that the supposedly templar elements of masonry don't appear until later in masonry and appear to be academic revivals of what people think templarism is.

Masonry also apparently makes use of things from the cabala. Does this mean that its actually an underground sect of jews that fled to england, or that the founders picked up on stuff from the cabala, liked it, and incorporated it into their masonry?

So thats a big part of the AW debate, how much of it was an unbroken line of succession, and how much of it was antiquarians and educated people picking up elements of AW and incorporating it into a new system?

Originally posted by Nygdan


So thats a big part of the AW debate, how much of it was an unbroken line of succession, and how much of it was antiquarians and educated people picking up elements of AW and incorporating it into a new system?

Yes I can appreciate how difficult this is to soort out but it is obvious it started well before 1717 and prior to then it was more than just stone cutters guillds.

www.fbrt.org.uk...
According to the Freemason’s Guide and Compendium, the modern history of English Freemasonry starts with the record of Elias Ashmole’s admittance into Freemasonry in 1646, although it is recognised that speculative as well as operative Freemasonry existed in England long before this. Moreover, artefacts exist showing that the Royal Arch Degree as well as the basic Craft Degrees existed in the time of Queen Elizabeth I.

also: -St. Alban (Albanus), besides being reputed by the Church as the first Christian martyr in Britain, is claimed by Freemasonry in their Legend of the Craft as the founder of Freemasonry in England. He was reputedly born in the 3rd century ad, in Hertfordshire, near Verulamium, went to Rome as a young man

....In a meticulously researched book, entitled The Origins of Freemasonry. Scotland's Century 1590 -1710 and published by the Cambridge University Press in 1988, Professor David Stevenson, then the Professor of Scottish History at the University of St Andrews produced the original lodge minutes which showed two of the leading covenantors were made Freemasons at a meeting of Edinburgh Cannongate Lodge held at Newcastle in 1641. This makes Elias Ashmole the third recorded 'making' of a Freemason in England. And shows clearly that Freemasonry started in Scotland at least fifty years before Brother Ashmole's initiation, into what can only have been a Scottish lodge.

So there is info going back at least to the 3rd century with St.Alban. And there is all the information about Sir Francis Bacon. This site is worth reading.
www.sirbacon.org...

-A Mystic Word, now known in Freemasonry as the Lost Word, has existed since time immemorial.

-Much cumulative evidence discloses that Francis Bacon, Baron of Verulam, Viscount St. Alban, as the original designer of Freemasonry and that he discovered the meaning of that Mystic Word and introduced it into the Order of Freemasonry .

-One of the most obscure mysteries cloaking the life of Bacon is his connection with Freemasonry. Much evidence has been presented by many distinguished writers to prove this connection.

-....I shall include Speculative Masonry, Free and Accepted Masonry, Ancient Free and Accepted Masonry-- all similiar terms. Since Geometry Masonry and Operative Masonry will be considered separately, they are not included within the term Freemasonry. The reader should understand that what is presented here is not Freemasonry as it stands today. Few Masons know the true meaning of the Divine Plan, the true name of their Lost Word or the actual creator of Freemasonry. Even the actual period of its inception remains an enigma for most Masons.

-The genius of Bacon, known to his confreres as "the jewelled brain" was known and recognized among the illuminati as early as 1580. ..... a man only worthy and well qualified to be the Father of the Masonic Fraternity, but also possessing the abililty to have created it.

So we have the 1500s from the Dormer material:
"For we are Brethren of the Rosie Cross,
We have the Mason Word and second sight."
showing how intimately the two Orders were identified.

Anyway while of interest it perhaps is easier to deal with the 1700's. I will have to work on that later however.

PD

You're getting deep into masonic legend now. Figures like Albanus and Aethelstan weren't really speculative masons, but were clearly referenced at some point to have links with 'masons', referring to operatives.

Whilst I'm of the opinion that non-operarive masonry started in Scotland, quite possibly as early as the 16th Century, speculative freemasonry started in England. There were many influences to this development, not least 'the enlightenment' embodied by the creation and success of The Royal Society.

I've thought of another book for you, BTW. The most up-to-date information on the history of freemasonry in England is probably "The Craft: History of English Freemasonry" by John Hamill.

PS Scotland is not in England

Originally posted by Trinityman
PD


Whilst I'm of the opinion that non-operarive masonry started in Scotland, quite possibly as early as the 16th Century, speculative freemasonry started in England. There were many influences to this development, not least 'the enlightenment' embodied by the creation and success of The Royal Society.



PS Scotland is not in England

Thanks for the feedback. It is pretty obvious there is a lot of confusion about exactly what was going on a specific points in time. It is interesting history.

There are a few different veins to this inquiry.

1. Determine the nature of Masonry idealogy through historical perspective.

2. Dertermine the true nature of Masonic involvement in world affairs and try to see if there are issues here.

This is a conspiracy site and I have heard things that make me wonder about Masons despite all the other information that shows that Masons are "good". I am trying to keep to the middle road and make the effort to be "real".

These two efforts seem to diverge and with the confusion and my lack of detailed historical knowledge it is not easy. No conspiracy theorists have come to add to this in a while either. Maybe everyone is bored here.
This might spice it up if you have time to listen:

I just heard a newer Kay Griggs audio (Highly positioned Marine Colonel's whistleblower wife) ;

www.zephnet.com...

that put's chills up your spine. I see she has moved into a Christian stance which she wasn't doing in her older vids. The Masons are referred to much more in her newer talks as well.


There is one point that has likely been beaten to death but is acknowledged to be historical. It is the fact that American Independence and the Bavarian Illuminati have the same birth year and in light of the Masonic founding of this country at the same time that the Bavarian Illuminati was using Freemasonry, well there must be more than coincidence at play here.

Would anyone care to take on the conspiriast side to flesh this out and support or give reason to deny this connection?

Originally posted by peopledying
Would anyone care to take on the conspiriast side to flesh this out and support or give reason to deny this connection?

I've mentioned this before: the Illuminati were indeed strongly influenced by a secret society in the American colonies called "Sons of Liberty", which practically all of the founders belonged to, even those who were not Masons. The Sons usually met in Masonic Lodges.

After the war, they became known as the Order of Red Men, due to their (supposed) planning and orchestration of the Boston Tea Party.

It isn't surprising that Weishaupt and company back in Bavaria formed their organization while all this was going on in the colonies, especially seeing how they wanted to do pretty much the same thing in Germany as our forefathers were doing in America.

Also, on a side note, there is not any evidence that the Royal Arch was practiced during the reign of Elizabeth I. In fact, it does not appear even the Master Mason degree existed back then. All data indicates that the fraternity had only two degrees up until at least 1717, and probably on up until the mid-1720's.

Whilst we are waiting for some conspiracy theorists to join us I'll carry on, if I may...

Originally posted by peopledying
It is pretty obvious there is a lot of confusion about exactly what was going on a specific points in time. It is interesting history.

I don't think confusion is quite the right description. From the limited information available there is mainstream (accepted) theories from most masonic scholars, with the usual academic differences about the detail. Then there are a range of offshoot theories from the mainstream, with varying degrees of acceptance from within the mainstram academic masonic community.

There are very few non-freemasons seriously researching the Craft, but one of them is Prof. Andrew Prescott at the University of Sheffield. The website can be found here and has some interesting information for the masonic scholar.

Originally posted by Masonic Light


I've mentioned this before: the Illuminati were indeed strongly influenced by a secret society in the American colonies called "Sons of Liberty", which practically all of the founders belonged to, even those who were not Masons. The Sons usually met in Masonic Lodges.

After the war, they became known as the Order of Red Men, due to their (supposed) planning and orchestration of the Boston Tea Party.

It isn't surprising that Weishaupt and company back in Bavaria formed their organization while all this was going on in the colonies, especially seeing how they wanted to do pretty much the same thing in Germany as our forefathers were doing in America.

Glad to see you again Masonic Light. Well this is new material for me. You seem to indicate that "what they wanted to do" was happening in America before Bavaria, I had assumed the opposite. Does this still jive with BI having contol over and using Freemasonry? Possibly European Freemasonry but not American? Perhaps two seperate efforts. I am trying to figure out the cross Atlantic connection. The Sons of Liberty was a method of organizing the Colonial indepence movement apparently and BI.

www.unexplainedstuff.com...
(neutral)

"was a secret society formed in Bavaria in 1776 with the political goal of encouraging rebellion of the people and the abolition of the established monarchies. Structuring the society along the lines of the classes and orders of the Freemasons, the Illuminati included levels of enlightenment that could be achieved by undergoing initiation through various mystical rites and ceremonies. Although the society's founder, a professor of religious law named Adam Weishaupt, sought to establish a new world order in the late eighteenth-century, the Illuminati was destroyed within 15 years of its founding."

So whats the question here? A conspirasist would be looking to see if there were persistent influences through the principals involved in both movements on both sides of the Atlantic and in subsequent organizations that never really extinguished.

Also how did the BI come to control FM and was there any continuing legacy of this involvement?

Conspiracy sites like this:
www.theresistancemanifesto.com...

cite John Robinson (Proofs of a Conspiracy )and continue with links to Skull and Bones, The League of Just Men, The Inner Circle etc. (Illuminati bloodlines, including those of such family names as Astor, Bundy, Dupont, Kennedy, Onassis, Roths-child, Rockefeller, Lord, Habsburg, Mellon, Oppenheimer, Sassoon, and Sinclair…)

www.atheists.org...
Excellent neutral site discussing FM and BI connections from an Atheist site:

"Nevertheless, the exposure of the Illuminati created "enormous confusion...about the whole world of Masonry, secret societies and sects." 33 The myth of Illuminist invincibility (something which the crafty Weishaupt had worked hard to create!) was nurtured by rumors that the Order survived in the German Union, created by Carl Frederick Bahrdt (1741-1792). Bahrdt was a militant Atheist who had suffered on account of his anti-clerical satires; he founded the Union with other Atheists as a reading society dedicated to the circulation of Enlightenment works. Ironically, it was the Illuminist Areopagite, Bode, who thought the idea of such a group to be foolhardy. No firm historical evidence links the Order of the Illuminati to the German Union; if anything, the Order survived only as ideas, rather than a working organization.
Epilogue

What then can we say of Illuminism and Freemasonry from the Atheist perspective? Certainly, it was in Freemasonry that much of the Atheism and deism of the Enlightenment was nurtured. The metaphors of creating new edifices from raw, unfinished stone, of Grafting and transforming the world to create new structures were themes which intertwined with the whole spirit of the Enlightenment. Ironically, it was when this philosophy was kept most secret and subjugated to the most conspiratorial organizational forms, that it failed. Despite Weishaupt's carefully laid plans, the Order of the Illuminati did not and could not succeed.

In a period of almost total church seizure of all political, economic and cultural institutions. Atheism was sheltered in countless lodge and sect meetings. Today, Masonry (particularly in the United States) has decayed to the status of a social club, 52 having lost its revolutionary character, becoming a symbol of the bourgeoisie. It is somewhat more radical in Europe, especially in France, where the Grand Orient readily admits Atheists into masonic membership. The Vatican, in March, 1981, resurrected the entire question of Freemasonry when it again warned Catholics that they risk excommuncation for joining lodges.

There are also long discussions of all the influences affirming that The Illuminati had actually continued. It is basically back to Church vs Secret Society.

Originally posted by peopledying
Well this is new material for me. You seem to indicate that "what they wanted to do" was happening in America before Bavaria, I had assumed the opposite. Does this still jive with BI having contol over and using Freemasonry? Possibly European Freemasonry but not American?

I don't think any serious historian has speculated that the Illuminati ever had any control over European Masonry. It is documented that Weishaupt became a Mason soon after the Illuminati was founded, and he frankly admitted in his memoires that the reason he became a Mason was to solicit membership for the Illuminati from the Masonic Lodges. This would stand to reason, as most of the intellectual Masons of the period were probably sympathetic to the Illuminati.

However, sympathy aside, most German Masons appear not to have been interested enough to participate themselves, and Weishaupt did not remain an active Mason very long. Masonry's only long-lasting influence over the Illuminati seems to have been ritualistic only (the 4th, 5th, and 6th degrees of the Illuminati were identical to the three degrees of Blue Lodge Masonry, keeping even the same titles).

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I don't think any serious historian has speculated that the Illuminati ever had any control over European Masonry. It is documented that Weishaupt became a Mason soon after the Illuminati was founded, and he frankly admitted in his memoires that the reason he became a Mason was to solicit membership for the Illuminati from the Masonic Lodges.

That sounds correct as attested by:

"It was Baron Knigge who helped graft on to the Illuminati much of the ritual of Freemasonry but Weishaupt had dabbled in masonry several years before forming his Order, and considered it of little use in furthering his own purposes. It was Baron Xaverius von Zwack ('Cato'), a member of the Areopagites, or ruling council of Illuminism, who had begun the process of recruiting minervals from within masonic lodges. As a result of this, along with the tireless efforts of Knigge, the Order swelled in size to over 2,000 and extended throughout much of Europe. Each country had a national director who presided over a network of inspectors; they in turn carried on the business of the Order with the help of provincial aides, working down to the city level and minerval academy level. "

The BI seemed to have drawn from Freemasonry in terms of membership and structure rather than contolling FM. I think there was Illuminizing influence going the other way as well due to blending, weather good or bad. At any rate the BI aspect does not seem all that significant.

However, sympathy aside, most German Masons appear not to have been interested enough to participate themselves, and Weishaupt did not remain an active Mason very long. Masonry's only long-lasting influence over the Illuminati seems to have been ritualistic only (the 4th, 5th, and 6th degrees of the Illuminati were identical to the three degrees of Blue Lodge Masonry, keeping even the same titles).

More important may be sepcific powerful people involved who may have continued in world power after the breakup. What Mayer Rothchild and William of Hesse or other powerful families connected to FM were doing may be more significant than focusing on BI as an orginization. Kolmer, Cagliostro, Casanova, Mirabeau, and St Germain were FMs probably having a more important effect on coming world events around this time and tie in better with "Bloodlines of the Illuminati" that would be easier to try and connect to present world power. Of course killing the BI did not kill the movement, just caused it to spread under various groups in more places, including America. I feel it would be a deception to say the Illuminati ended with the break up of the BI.