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a question to believers?

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posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by plague
praenato.......
how am i taking anyblame off myself and laying it on the law??? what blame is this???
as far as the ishmael question..it was ment for me...as i did say "i always wonder" which is totaly different then saying "what do you think?"....
but to embelish on this thought (which i realize is pointlesss but im doing it anyway...) god told him to take his only son isaac.......isaac was not his only son ...so what if he did take ishmael up and offered him?..would god still intervene and stop him from killing the innocent child or would he have turned his back and not cared because it was not the sacrifice he wanted..........and i think anyone who reads the bible has to at one point or another wonder what the true character of god is???????



I'm not sure if this is worth pointing out here, but Isaac was Abrahams only son who could fulfill the promise God made to Abraham at the time, and the sacrifice was meant as a test of Abraham's faith in God. To offer Ishmael would have made little sense, he couldn't fulfill God's promise and Isaac was the favorite of Abraham. I have a feeling if Abraham had taken Ishmael instead God would have brought some kind of punishment on Abraham for it. This whole point though deviates from the discussion, I almost feel bad paying it any attention. The discussion I was addressing was that of what the Bible is really about. To me it appears as though you are avoiding the true topic of my discussion all together and focussing in on my last sentence only. Whether I am right in this conjecture I know not, and my last statement in that paragraph was of little importance to my main point. Are you offended by that statement, for you should notice that the statement was made in a general manner and addressing no one particular person. Curious that you should be offended (if you indeed are) by a statement such as that when it was not made to be offensive, but to provoke thought. Please try to keep your head on straight if you can. As for your actual question, you are a smart person, read what I wrote again and see if you can't figure out what our blame is.
Considering your last question, I know not what the grounds are that have caused you to reach such a conclusion. When a question like that is posed in such a manner how shall I answer it, for I have not yet heard the reasoning behind your side of the argument for me to have a chance to consider it and perhaps even change my mind before responding (though changing my mind about scripture would be very difficult, it isn't impossible). Anyhow, I must at least add that the Bible is only one means by which one comes to know God's character. Other means are the internal changes He makes inside of those He choose to change and who accept that change, nature, personal experience, and one on one interaction (prayer). No doubt you will disagree with me on this and I know that very well, I would too if I had not experienced these things first hand.

[edit on 12-12-2005 by praenato]




posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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You seem to know your scripture and faith very well. I had never looked close enough at that event in numbers (with the camps set up as a cross) to see that corrolation. Thanks for your contributions to this discussion, they have simultaneously humbled and fascinated me.



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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wow how well you dont know me.......im not offended as when i enterd this arena of discussion i left any right of being offended( unless it was a direct attack on my family or something realy un called for) at the door........yes as i stated the ishmael was very off topic and prabably should have never been brought up but i did my bad i see now how off topic and undetrimental to the convo it was......

now...i have a very loving relationship with god....i talk to him often and always get replies....i have phisically felt his presence on more than one occasion.....i claim no specific religion but i do read alot of different religious text.......now if you read the bible and read un attached ...as to say read as a book ....you have to question why god wants so much blood shed????
and there is alot...now when i read the bible i keep in mind that it was written for the hebrews by most likely hebrews......it was there path to god.......im not realy shure what to think of christianity as it was a hebrew concept and i just dont feel like those are paths that god laid out for me.....
now by saying this do i feel as though i have offended god...no because he gave us freewill and a right to choose......ask any parent this question.....
would you rather have your child love you because that is what there told and expected to....forced??? or would you rather have your child love you because they just love you.....purely????
being a father i would rather have pure love.......as i think god wants.....pure love ...love him because you love em not because you read in some book or had someone tell you that if you didnt your doomed...thats just selfish.....



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by praenato
You seem to know your scripture and faith very well. I had never looked close enough at that event in numbers (with the camps set up as a cross) to see that corrolation. Thanks for your contributions to this discussion, they have simultaneously humbled and fascinated me.


I can't take credit for those because I heard it from someone else and am just passing along some fascinating things hidden in the Bible. I probably know a few more, but I wish I had time to study more into the things hidden in the Bible. There are probably more things in it than could ever be found.



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 06:01 PM
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Another awesome thing hidden in the Bible is in the parable of the good samaritan.

Luke 10:30
And Jesus answering said, A certain man(Adam/mankind) went down(fell into sin) from Jerusalem(a place of blessing) to Jericho(a place of cursing), and fell among thieves(satan and his angels), which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead(spirit died and so did the realtionship we had with God, plus physical death would come eventually).

10:31
And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

10:32
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

10:33
But a certain Samaritan(Jesus, the God man), as he journeyed, came where he was(came to earth in a human body): and when he saw him, he had compassion on him(took our place on the cross and died for our sins),

10:34
And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil(Holy Spirit) and wine(forgiveness through His sacrifice), and set him on his own beast(gave us His righteousness), and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

10:35
And on the morrow when he departed(resurrected and ascended to heaven), he took out two pence(2 days wages), and gave them to the host(the Church), and said unto him, Take care of him(continue spreading the gospel to others); and whatsoever thou spendest more(good works done in His name), when I come again(2nd coming), I will repay thee(believers rewarded).

Interesting about the 2 days. He prepaid enough for 2 days care. A day is like a thousand years to God. After 2 days(2000 years) He will COME AGAIN and pay the balance due(reward).



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 11:46 PM
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Plaque,
I'm glad to hear you have a relationship with God. It was not my intention to imply you didn't and I must make that clear as I have realized that in what I wrote that is what I had assumed. A misteak on my part, and my appologies to you. I agree with much that you have said, the condition of our world is set up as such that allowes for a lot of free will to do things against God, at least one of the reasons being that which you gave, that God wants us to Love Him out of free choice. As for your comment about bloodshed, I do not pretend to know God that intimately to know the reasons for which He does all of His works. Perhaps they were necessary, I always keep in mind that God is greater than 4 dimensional and so treat Him as one that can see much more reality than I. I don't feel up to tackling that question intellectually tonight. As for the Bible being written for the Hebrews, I keep in mind that any Gentile that agreed to become circumcised could become a member of the Hebrew/Jewish nation, and that Christ distinguished very little between the Jews and the Gentiles. For that reason, I see the Bible as a book for the believer, not just for the Hebrews. So there I disagree with you, however, who it was actually written for isnt as important as the lessons you gain from the scripture. I hold to the personal believe that is the best way (and possibly the only way) to get to know God is to maintain a personal relationship with Him. Whether or not you read the Bible "He who asks shall receive, he who seeks will find, and to whoever knocks the door will be opened to him."



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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dbrandt,
Thanks again for your additions to this discussion. Your comment about the Parable of the Good Samaritan just further strengthens a theory of mine. I have held to the belief that God made the Bible for all kinds of people and thus has made the over-lying concepts possible to extract for those who aren't naturally as analytical (but they may be better at otherwise applying and giving different viewpoints and so on on scripture), but He has also packed Scripture full of useful subtle hints and references to keep those who are very intellectually and analytically minded fascinated and amazed with how Scripture all seems to tie into itself. My response to anyone who claims you can overanalyze Scripture is that, well, you can't (if you analyze it using common sense and logic). This is an important concept to me because it says a lot about the intellectual side of God.



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