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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Yeah, anti-Semitism is quite rampant on ATS and is hardly ever dealt with or censored by anyone.
Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
Why is it that any criticism of Israel and her policies are immediately labled as Anti-Semitism. I will agree that some people are heavily biased in there opinons and verge on Anti-Semitism, that doesnt diminish the validity of the questions being asked... try answering the questions instead of jumping up and down about the poor oppressed people of israel.
Why is it that any criticism of Israel and her policies are immediately labled as Anti-Semitism.
Basically your saying that any attack in the history of the world (that wasn't conducted by a moron) is in fact a sneak attack, so there is no special need to justify any particular Israeli attack. If you call the landing on Normandy a 'sneak attack', then that's just your synonymous to 'attack'.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
(67 Without warning, flying low under radar in a dawn raid the Israelies bombed the Arab airforces as they sat on the ground.
(nowWithout clear proof of Iranian intentions any Israeli attack on Iran would be a Sneak attack.[Unless they stand up and say 'Hey guys, we're attacking now!]
In fact both palestinians and the surrounding countries tried to wipe-out Israel since before it's inception. Apperently the six-day war was not the root of all why-arabs-deslike-israel. See:
If Israel would give back what they stole when they invaded in a sneak attack what would they have to complain about then?
Then surely you should oppose the Muslim Palestinians. Just this week I saw a news item about how muslims drive christians out of Beth-Lehem by forcefully buying land, property etc'. There used to be 8 mosques there 10 years ago, now more then 80. Not to mention under the PA they have far less rights for religious freedom. They might become the next Copts.
I have been supporting the Palestinian Christians...
But there is intelligence. Christian Palestinians are rarely involed in terrorisem, so they are rarely arrested and aren't targeted for assassinations.
Israel does not have smart bombs that can tell the difference between Islamic Terrorists, or innocents of any religion.
The wall is just a security barrier, counter-terrorism measure. It was build only because of suicide attacks, and reduced them by 90% (!!). It can be moved or torn-down, It's not a political border. Noticed it was built just now, not at 67.
...the wall clearly show Israels intentions were hostile when they invaded...
Not even the Egyptians claim that. In fact the UN troopes were there to guard against war. They received an ultimatum to evacuate. Had they done their job for which they were put there, they would have stayed to oppose the Egyptians. The Israelies did not do this because they didn't want war. Had the UN troopes stayed, there would have been no war. If a guard will walk away because the criminal "politely ask" him to leave, he isn't much of a guard, is he?
They (Egypt) politely asked the UN to withdraw the troops for their own protection. Note that the Israelies did not do this because they were planning a sneak attack.
I think you're talking about the Egyptians the day before their sneak-attack in the 73 war.
In the days before they ran a propaganda campaign where they claimed the IDF officers had been given time off, and even showed vidoe of men enjoying a day at the beach.
No they didn't. Russia suggested but Iran refused.
The issue of spent fuel is quite another thing, and I believe Iran has agreed to allow them to be shipped out of the country.
Need I really mention that the number of Palestinians from Israel who left to join their families in the PA is 0 (zero)? What Riwka ment is they rather live in Israel. That's the reason Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are very sougft-after as brides and grooms in the PA. If one of the newcomers wants to become a citizen, there is a due process like in the US, Europe or any other country. All countries controll immigration this way.
Thats all people who had families in Israel.
What do you base it on? By law all citizens in Israel are equal.
Despite their claims to be democratic Israel is a racist nation.
We were at war they started. These things happen at war.
I was speaking of the economy in Palestine. Israel has destroyed it.
You really put your foot in your mouth with this one. Was Poland the aggressor in WWII? After WWII Poland occupied (to this day) land that was Germany's before the war. What if someone is the defender in a war but wins non-the-less? Is he not allowe some compensation?
How do you tell if a nation is the aggressor in a war? You look at the ground under their boots. If it did not belong to them before the war they are the aggressors.
The one thing standing in the way of a treaty with the palestinians is what we demanded from any peace treaty: They have to stop trying to kill us. That's the step they're stuck on in the road map. If they could only give that up they could have had a country long ago. What is most important to us is security.
I support equal rights and freedom for everyone in the area. Since Israel will not allow it for the Palestinians they have no right to occupy after two generations.
Isn't that what the palestinians are trying to do?
Aquiring territory through the use of force is not admissable.
My grandmother was an Anti-Zionist Sephardic Karaite Jew, and I loved her dearly.
Originally posted by xmotex
No "ancient claim" is necessary, fact is they were there first.
Originally posted by ludaChris
This is true, we learned about this in a class I took about ancient history. What more proof does anyone want? The Romans came and conquered the Israelis at one point. They were conquered at some other point as well, cant remember by who, maybe someone can help me there.
Originally posted by Parmenides
Basically your saying that any attack in the history of the world (that wasn't conducted by a moron) is in fact a sneak attack, so there is no special need to justify any particular Israeli attack. If you call the landing on Normandy a 'sneak attack', then that's just your synonymous to 'attack'.
And if that's not enough - does this means you accept that the 67 war was not a 'sneak attack' because there was "clear proof of arab intentions"? They announced their intentions to the world after all, AND backed it up with actions.
Just to be on the safe side - can you define 'sneak attack' please?
The 67 war was a sneak attack because Israel attacked first while creating the impression that they were not.
As you say the Arabs stated their intentions, but the Israelies did not making their attack a sneak attack.
In fact both palestinians and the surrounding countries tried to wipe-out Israel since before it's inception. Apperently the six-day war was not the root of all why-arabs-deslike-israel. See:
en.wikipedia.org...
Arafat himself said that after he drove Israel to the 67 borders, he'll keep pushing untill it's gone. Even today it's the Explicite intentions of the HANAS and Iran.
Put the shoe on the other foot, and look at the history of the land for the past thousand years.
If you were them you would want the same.
Why would you allow land that was yours to be given away to a foreign ethnic group by Foreign nations.
BTW: At the time the UN did not compose most of the world, so it did not carry the same legitimacy as it does today.
The entire Arab world was against it at the beginning so the creation of Israel was not elgitimate.
Then surely you should oppose the Muslim Palestinians....
I don't oppose any people. I oppose the actions that deny the Palestinians liberty.
Occupation is not liberty.
But there is intelligence. Christian Palestinians are rarely involed in terrorisem, so they are rarely arrested and aren't targeted for assassinations.
They have their homes bulldozed, and their land stolen from them just like any other Palestinians.
They are denied liberty by the Israeli occupational forces.
PLEASE don't go pointing the finger at anyone else than the ones doing the actions.
There has NEVER been a Palestinian Christian terrorist.
[quoet]Make up your mind about the Iranian nuclear bombs production. All is well EITHER because you think there is no evidance they are (or will) build them, OR because they build them but they are allowed.
You can't have both. Different arguments stem from each.
They have a right to enrich Uranium for peaceful purposes.
The UNIAEA has the right to inspect their facilities.
There is no proof they have produced weapons grade Uranium, and unless you have a working crystal ball you can't say what will happen in the future.
The wall is just a security barrier, counter-terrorism measure. It was build only because of suicide attacks, and reduced them by 90% (!!). It can be moved or torn-down, It's not a political border. Noticed it was built just now, not at 67.
It is a land grab.
If Israel were going to build a wall to protect itself it would build it around its border.
It has built the wall around the Palestinians well within their land instead.
Look at any of the maps of the path and tell me with all honesty that it is equitable.
Not even the Egyptians claim that. In fact the UN troopes were there to guard against war. They received an ultimatum to evacuate. Had they done their job for which they were put there, they would have stayed to oppose the Egyptians.
Their job was to monitor, not to enforce.
The Israelies did not do this because they didn't want war. Had the UN troopes stayed, there would have been no war.
A few blue hats were not going to stop a war.
The unit was not able to stand against a single war plane let alone two armies.
That is silliness.
If a guard will walk away because the criminal "politely ask" him to leave, he isn't much of a guard, is he?
Again with the 'sneak-attack'? Did I mentioned Israel declared that if Egyptians break the intenational agreements and enter Sinai and close the straits, it's (two) Casus Belli and therefore they where technically already at war for weeks before Israel attacked?
I am very well aware of the events leading to the Israeli sneak attack.
Acts of war are committed around the world all of the time.
That does not mean there is a state of war.
A military attack such as the Israeli sneak attack is not required as a response to the Arab actions which were only words.
Words don't kill people.
You really put your foot in your mouth with this one. Was Poland the aggressor in WWII? After WWII Poland occupied (to this day) land that was Germany's before the war. What if someone is the defender in a war but wins non-the-less? Is he not allowe some compensation?
I think you're talking about the Egyptians the day before their sneak-attack in the 73 war.[/quote[
No, I am talking about the Israelies leading up to their sneak attack in 67.
No they didn't. Russia suggested but Iran refused.
I don't feel like digging up references so why don't you prove me wrong to avoid this ping-pong game.
10)about the 50,000 palestinians coming to Israel.
Need I really mention that.....
You don't need to say anything because I already proved my point that Israel has racist immigration policies making them un-democratic.
If you want to go off on a different tangent feel free to wander.
What do you base it on? By law all citizens in Israel are equal.
Israel has no defined borders.
Israels has racist immigaration policies, and that they pronounce themselves to be a Jewish Nation.
Christians are not allowed to promote their religion, or even hand out bibles.
Many businesses only allow Jews, but its a crime to not allow Jews.
How many non-Jewish Judges are there?
Can you name a single one?
There is much more, so maybe I need to start a thread on all of the racist policies, and laws of Israel.
The Israeli STATE is an interim government in violation of its own founding document for failing to create a constitution.
We were at war they started. These things happen at war.
The war that Israel started when they invaded in a sneak attack ended long ago.
Attacks on Palestinian infrastructure, closures of crossings, Israeli control of borders, and import taxes are not required in this supposed 'war'.
They only cause suffering for the Palestians.
No defense is obtained from these and countless other shotile actions.
I guess it leads to a broader question: What kind of compensation deemed reasonable from an aggressor who started a war but lost? (and don't say none).
The one thing standing in the way of a treaty with the palestinians is what we demanded from any peace treaty: They have to stop trying to kill us. That's the step they're stuck on in the road map. If they could only give that up they could have had a country long ago. What is most important to us is security.
Isn't that what the palestinians are trying to do?
But seriously, that's another big one. How long must a country hold territory before it is admissible as a legitimate part of it? Now I'm waiting to see which countries you will claim to have illegitimate borders. (and I'm not talking just about the US)
Israel had never occupied Arab Palestine. It never existed.
And one last thing. If not for the 67 war, the Palestinians would never have a country! The population of Jordan today is 60% Palestinians. No one thinks to give them a country there, even though it's on the terittory of the old (british mandate) Palestine.
Karaite you say? Now that is interesting. They are a sect that departed from Judaism during the 8th century. At least I know she wasn't Anti-Zionist from religious reasons. Because being a Karaite shoudn't affect any modern day dillema.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
Theirs is the religion of Torah while yours is the Religion of the Babylonian Talmud.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
There are at least four different Jewish religions, Samaritans, Karaites, Talmudists, and Kabahlists.
Judaism is a religion - The four main Jewish religious denominations are:
* Orthodox Judaism
* Conservative (Masorti) Judaism,
* Reform/Liberal/Progressive Judaism
* Reconstructionist Judaism
As said before, this is wrong.
e.g. Pop Star Madonna claims to be a 'Kabbalist'. But she is NO JEW.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
As I said earlier, those are the four different branches of Talmudism.
Arch Angel why wont you admit that just because Israel did make the first attack, they didnt make the declaration of war, Egypt did.
Originally posted by Riwka
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. And nobody else.
Since there are many people who are Talmudists or Kabbalhists or whatever who are neither born to a jewish mother nor have gone through the formal process of the conversion to Judaism, one can NOT say this is a jewish "religion". Talmudists or Kabbalists - if Jews - can be of all 4 denominations within the Jewish religion.
As said before, Popsatr Madonna claims to be a kabbalist, does NOT belong to the Jewish people.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
Do you deny that they are Jews?
Originally posted by Riwka
Originally posted by ArchAngel
Do you deny that they are Jews?
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism. And nobody else.
Point.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
The idea that you are a Jew if your Mother was one comes from the Babylonian Talmud, not the Torah.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
Jew defines an ethnic group, not a race, religion, or nation.
Originally posted by ArchAngel
Accepting the Talmud is not required.