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Exactly who will dwell in the pits of the Christian hell?

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posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 03:38 PM
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if this is true then why does it say "works" and not "faith"......what about the jews he made a convent with?




posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by plague
if this is true then why does it say "works" and not "faith"......what about the jews he made a convent with?


I hope I am understanding your question right so I can answer it right.

God set up the animal sacrifice system as a foreshadowing of the coming Savior who would be sacrificed for sin. There faith was placed in the sacrifice(picture of Christ, though they didn't know or completely understand) for removal of sin. Before the cross those who desired salvation placed faith looking forward, after the cross we place faith looking back.

Both of us have our faith placed in Christ.

We are saved by faith in Christ, works have nothing to do with our salvation. They have something to do with the reward we will receive in heaven but nothing to do with salvation.

These people in Revelation chose to be judged by their works, which do not earn heaven, so their sin remained on them and they suffer eternal seperation from God. Faith in Christ brings us to heaven and eternity with God.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
God takes responsibilty for someone who is this way. Since He knits everyone together, He could have prevented them from being this way. He chose not to. ONLY HE knows why He does it this way sometimes. We probably won't have the answer to that question until we see Him face to face.

It's not a question, at least not for me.
You say God would choose not to prevent such a life, yet will not do what is necessary to make sure everyone gets the same benefit regarding our real lives--despite what is clearly written to the contrary?


Sure He loves evreyone the same, you will get no argument from me on this, so stop saying this is not what I say.

So, He loves us all the same, but not enough to ensure something good for all of us.
Right.


The majority of people have no mental limitation as to hearing the Gospel and accepting or rejecting it.

The majority of people never even hear the true gospel--they just hear a bunch of conflicting hogwash that sounds good to the speaker but sounds like a deck decidedly stacked against the listener.


They have the ability to make the choice after thinking on it.

And when they think on it, they realize it makes no sense at all--therefore they then surmise that God is not real, because He is not even as logical as a third grader.
Making the choice not to be suckered isn't the same as making a choice to save their own souls.



20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

John tells us He saw the dead. He doesn't say He saw no one. He says He saw the DEAD. There was someone to see and they were dead. They rejected Christ. They were thrown into the Lake of Fire.


In Revelation, the 'dead' are what we call the 'living.'

Adam and Eve were fully alive in the garden.

Then they disobeyed God, with the consequences of, as He had said, that on that very day they would die.

But they only died spiritually--for they then lived another 900-something years and then they died physically. When they died their second death.

When Christ rose again, the human soul was resurrected--not everyone of them, yet, but all those who were prepared by baptism beforehand.

And ever since then, the Holy Spirit resurrects men one soul at a time. One by one, souls are re-born from above. Just like Christ told Nicodemus.

And these that have been 'resurrected' will not be hurt by the second death.

Why? Because their soul has been restored to the Spiritual life that was forfeited by Adam--their body is just an old garment discarded at their 'second death.'



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

And when they think on it, they realize it makes no sense at all--therefore they then surmise that God is not real,


And that is a choice they have made, with their free will. For whatever reason someone chooses not to accept/believe/trust/place faith in Christ that is a choice and along with that comes the consequences for that choice.

In John 3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that those who believe in Christ will be born again.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
Anyway...going by the Jesusgod logic, it seems to me that the following people will be broiled beyond crispy forever...

1) All non-Christians, who, by default, don't believe Jesus is their savior(let's break this one down a bit...)

Muslims
Jews
Buddhists
Hindus
Wiccans
Pantheists
Atheists
People of various tribal religions
Rastafarians
etc.

2) People who die before accepting Christ

Isolated islanders
Non-religious Christians

3) Miscarried embryos/fetuses
4) Stillborn babies
5) Aborted embryos/fetuses/babies
6) Children who die before they can understand religion (age unclear)
7) People born too retarded (seriously) to understand religion
8) People who, through accidents, attacks, disease, etc., become a vegetable before accepting Jesus
9) And, almost forgot, me


I bet I won't go, though, but if I do, at least I will get to meet many of my heroes. That list you posted means that Malcolm X, Buddha, The Dalai Lama, Rabbi Hillel, Gandhi, Isaac Asimov, Bob Marley, John Lennon, Chief Seattle, Chief Dan George, and Aung San Soo Kyi. And, if Jesus was a Nazorean Rabbi, and therefore Jewish, ironically, he'll be there too. And, if most Protestants I have met are correct, my all time hero, the Catholic Saint Mother Teresa will be there too!
So, I am not worried about going to hell, in fact, if the above is true, and I had to pick between heaven and hell, I know which one I'd choose, and I won't need to bring a sweater.
Of course, I always felt that if Jesus is in charge of admissions to Heaven, he'd likely let everyone in, being that he is so forgiving and all.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I bet I won't go, though, but if I do, at least I will get to meet many of my heroes.


And this is an assumption. While I can't say for sure, hell could be complete aloneness. Seperation from God for sure, but it could also involve seperation from all others for all eternity.



posted on Dec, 27 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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Dbrandt, good point. That would definitely suck if it were the case. My belief is that those people I listed are good examples of people who I admire, who I cannot imagine not going to heaven, were it real. I believe in the soul, and life after death, but I lean more towards reincarnation. I don't know, though, and may not find out till I die, and even then I still may not find out. I hope I do though, if we don't just die, that is.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38

And when they think on it, they realize it makes no sense at all--therefore they then surmise that God is not real,


And that is a choice they have made, with their free will. For whatever reason someone chooses not to accept/believe/trust/place faith in Christ that is a choice and along with that comes the consequences for that choice.

Do you have anything at all, besides worn-out rhetoric? It has no depth to it, no true meaning that connects to the whole.

If the witness is trustworthy--then any man would believe the message true. But contradictions delivered without warmth are not easily received except by those who seek an easy way.


In John 3 Jesus tells Nicodemus that those who believe in Christ will be born again.

Indeed.

But first, what does He say?


There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him,
Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him,
How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Nicodemus answered and said unto him,
How can these things be?
Jesus answered and said unto him,
Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
~John 3:1-10


'Again' is more properly 'from above;' and by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first).



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 12:04 PM
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dbrandt.....
again and i see that niether of us will budge on this, but why would he mention works at all...they would be of no consequence if they were not being judged....if god was not going to judge us by our works ,which i believe is a judgement of how true our heart realy is and how we conducted ourselves with such little time on earth then it would have said faith......now you can go back and look at all the times jesus himself said he was the only way and use that as a counter argument....but it is very flawed....

1) jesus was a man who claimed to be the devined...god never claimed this....you can argue he only spoke to moses but thats not the truth....he spoke to moses and aaron also alot of freaky stuff was happening on the mountain, plus it seemed that god was with moses all through out the exodus....that is why i would believe god spoke to moses...but when did god speak and say hey heres my son???? i mean he put on one heck of a laser light show for the jews to prove he was god and that moses was his right hand man.....why not do the same for jesus????

2) his followers were all in a bad perdicament ..in one way or another, and looking for a way out of it.....= his apostles

3) it is easy to convince someone your the way to a better life when they have nothing left and are looking for any glimmer of hope.....= the shunned masses he spoke to...

4) jesus claiming to be god would be blaspomious..i think if god had sent jesus he would have forseen this problem and solved it......

like i said it makes no sense for them to mention works if your not judged on them.......and if you take into consideration the above statements then you might see that maybe you need more than faith........what is better faith with jesus or works done out of pure love for god without faith in jesus...........



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by plague
what is better faith with jesus or works done out of pure love for god without faith in jesus...........



Faith/Acceptance in Christ, a choice people make, brings salvation nothing else. Works don't earn salvation/eternal life, they earn reward for believers but not salvation.

Hebrews
11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

11:2
For by it the elders obtained a good report.

11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
...someone chooses not to accept/believe/trust/place faith in Christ...


accept:
G588
ἀποδέχομαι
apodechomai
ap-od-ekh'-om-ahee
From G575 and G1209; to take fully, that is, welcome (persons), approve (things): - accept, receive (gladly).

believe:
G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit.

trust:
G1679
ἐλπίζω
elpizō
el-pid'-zo
From G1680; to expect or confide: - (have, thing) hope (-d) (for), trust.

faith #1:
G3640
ὀλιγόπιστος
oligopistos
ol-ig-op'-is-tos
From G3641 and G4102; incredulous, that is, lacking confidence in.

This is the faith mentioned here:

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
~Matthew 6:30


faith #2:
G4102
πίστις
pistis
pis'-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher).

As in:

When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
~Matthew 8:10


Faith #1 or #2 is determined by accompanying prepositions:

'faith toward':

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
~Acts 20:21


'the faith in Christ':

And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
~Acts 24:24


'faith of':

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
~Galatians 2:16


Those 5 words are not interchangeable, and the prepositional phrases are not optional or mutable.


For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
~Romans 3:3


IOW--should whether or not a person believes make null and void the vow that God voluntarily made? If a person does not believe, then is God unable to keep His word?

I'm guessing, dbrandt--do you read a translation other than the KJV? Like the ISV, NIV, or RSV?



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 01:59 PM
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what about faith of those who love god???? what if there faith is in god not jesus? hebrews goes on to talk about this..11:6
"but without faith it is impossible to please him, for he that cometh to god must believe that he is "... i believe this means you must believe in god .....

hebrews goes on to talk about others that had faith in the words of god....and how they were saved from either there impending doom or sadness by having faith in gods words....funny though how they had spoken to god so they had to realise this is the word.....yet who tells us jesus is god.....jesus and his followers ..please show me where in the bible gods shows without a doubt from his mouth that jesus is god and we should have faith in him to see heaven......

yes the writer of hebrews seems to think that jesus is the son of god , so please show me else where, were god says jesus is lord and we need to have faith in him to get to heaven......



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Faith/Acceptance in Christ, a choice people make, brings salvation nothing else. Works don't earn salvation/eternal life, they earn reward for believers but not salvation.


Huh?

'...a choice people make, brings salvation nothing else...'


Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
~Galatians 2:16


By the 'faith' (constancy, reliability) of (not 'in' but 'of') Jesus Christ.

'Of' means it is Christ's--not ours. It is Christ's faith (constancy) that brings salvation--and it is something already accomplished--through Christ's work, not our own. If we had been able to accomplish it in any way, even by just believing, then it would have been done. Abraham believed--but that belief did not save him--Christ's death and resurrection saved Abraham. Same as everyone else.



For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
~Romans 3:3


Our ability to believe or disbelieve has no effect on either God's faithfulness or Christ's faithfulness.

A 'work' is: physical or mental effort exerted to do or make something; purposeful activity; labor; toil

To 'believe' is an act--the mental act of 'trusting in,'--whether purposeful or unbidden, it is a work of the mind.

Therefore, 'belief' is a 'work.'



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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thanks queenie ....why do you always have the answer??????

although it does make sense and your right.... it still doesnt sway me on the fact that you only need faith in jesus to go to heaven or that someone like me who is a reletively good person ..who is very quick to try to make up for my shortcomings and loves god very much, but doesnt believe in jesus being my saviour would be discounted from being in gods presence at the end of my time......there are alot of other biblical beliefs that i dont agree with but thats for another thread......



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by plague
thanks queenie ....why do you always have the answer??????

Well, honestly I personally have never had an answer--only questions. But you asked a question on another thread--one I was just reading:


why did god not speak ever??? before or after???? i mean if i was as gracious as god was to give my only son i would atleast do a follow up on it to make shure he didnt die in vain...
i mean to sacrifice your only son so that he can forgive us of our sins would mean that he would want everyone to come to him ..not a select few which is why he would be smart enough to see his flaw in sending jesus to die for our sins with out using some kinda ...IM GOD YOU NEED TO LISTEN....to verifie what they were veiwing.....


Now, I'm not saying I'm God (of course I am not, since I can type, and many mistakes I make when typing and living, hee hee) but God does speak--to people and through people--but their actions speak far more clearly of God than their words--especially when the words are not supported by actions and attitude. I'm not speaking of just people who declare themselves 'christians'--in fact, I'd have to honestly say I've met very few who didn't speak except for themselves. Pushing one's beliefs as necessary upon others is not what God does.

The main point about Jesus was not sacrifice--few people realize how that relates to the salvation of Israel and not the world. The world was never given the law, but all the world was cursed from Cain killing Abel. The 'salvation' of the world is about 'rescue' from mortality. Which most people equate with 'going to heaven.' The curse was lifted for us all through one death, just as one death made death a curse for all of us.
Cain said 'am I my brother's keeper?' But Jesus did what Cain didn't. Envy is the opposite of love, and envy caused Cain to kill Abel and the Pharisees to condemn Jesus. But love is what motivated Jesus not to speak in His defense or to proclaim His innocence of the charges He was framed with. Jesus rectified Cain's error.

Resurrection is about our spirits--not about raising fleshly bodies from the dead--although it was demonstrated in what seemed to be that fashion--but God is not Stephen King and the world is not a 'pet cemetary.' To put a spirit in a body whose soul has already died is to make a zombie. But if the soul has been made alive with God's Spirit, then it is another thing altogether.

Jesus never said 'believe in me as God.' He said, in effect, to believe that He had brought truth and words from God and also life--spiritual life. The prophets who came before and after Him also brought/bring words given by God. But life was restored to man--true life--when Christ died and then 'opened the matrix' from the Earth's womb to the world of Spiritual life. He said 'If you believe what I say, then believe in God,' and 'if you believe on my name (which is that of the Christ--and of the Son of the Living God--which simply means one born anew from God's Spirit through resurrection) then you will live.' In Revelation, it is written 'Have faith in God.' Jesus only came to demonstrate that there is good reason to believe in God.

Unfortunately (but not really--all things are as they should be, in truth) what the world hears from christianity doesn't really give them good reason to believe in God, at all--because Christ's name is misused and misrepresented.


although it does make sense and your right.... it still doesnt sway me on the fact that you only need faith in jesus to go to heaven or that someone like me who is a reletively good person ..who is very quick to try to make up for my shortcomings and loves god very much, but doesnt believe in jesus being my saviour would be discounted from being in gods presence at the end of my time

You don't need 'faith in Jesus to go to heaven'--you need trust in the message He brought (and which many communicate to others even as we speak and which I try to convey) and believe and have faith in God to do as He has promised--to restore us all back to His presence through giving life back into our spirits. The message that was brought is that God fulfilled His promise--and the first to experience the reality of that was Jesus. Now, when we die, we are 'passing through' death--not staying buried in its darkness.
'Being a good person' is all that is needed, yet it is not at all sufficient. What I mean is that, 'Only God is good.' Because 'God is love.' And if one loves his brothers, then God lives in that person. True love towards other people, all other people, is not possible unless God is working in a person. We can not be good on our own, but if we are good it is because God is in our hearts.

The thing about faith is: don't doubt. Anything. But 'not doubting' doesn't mean the same thing as remaining ever-skeptical about what other people say. Don't doubt God---but don't believe in what others say if it just doesn't seem right within your heart. God will direct us--every one of us. If we allow it.

The truth about Christ is that 'heaven' is open to us all, because He opened the door. And it is open to us all. If we can't, don't, or won't believe now, we will surely be given the truth when we get there. But if we doubt there is even a God, or do not make love our primary motivation, then we alienate ourselves from what God is.

Because God is love.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 05:08 PM
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i didnt want to repost but i had to to say .....nice post ........i like your outlook on the matter...



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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Without reading seven pages of replies, lemme offer my answer to the original question of the post.

Who will dwell in the pits of the Christian Hell? Why, Christians of course.

For me, life is Hell, and it is my responsibility to transmute it into Heaven. If I fail, nobody suffers but me. That's just my personal take on life, for what it's worth.

I refuse to speculate on an afterlife, instead I take comfort in what I know about death.

Technically speaking, it's the most pleasurable experience of your life. What awaits beyond is really immaterial, considering the moment itself will seem to last an eternity. The way the unconscious keeps time is very different from your waking mind. It's reasonable to assume that the last moment of life will seem like a very long time indeed. Imagine a fully conscious, adrenaline spiked dream. That moment is a rush of pleasure for all of us.

Christians aren't the only ones who go to Heaven. They are, however, uniquely susceptible to making life Hell, for themselves and others, if they misunderstand the fundamentally right-minded teachings of their namesake philosopher.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by plague
so please show me else where, were god says jesus is lord and we need to have faith in him to get to heaven......


I've already done this in other posts and so have other posters. Why go through it all again when you can easily go through the posts again and reread them and find the verses.



posted on Dec, 28 2005 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Faith/Acceptance in Christ, a choice people make, brings salvation nothing else. Works don't earn salvation/eternal life, they earn reward for believers but not salvation.



Actually I shouldn't have said it brings nothing else. At acceptance of Christ the believer becomes justified and then sanctification begins and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit we are a new creation.



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 09:58 PM
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In the Christian faith, one must let Jesus take their sins upon himself, and pay for them, which I would decline even if Jesus personally asked me to. He isn't the one who I feel is responsible to pay for them, I am, and if I were to let anyone pay for my sins, which I wouldn't, but if so, I'd burden the most evil character I could find to dump them onto, and Jesus would be the last person I'd pass them off on. I believe in him as a great sage, a spiritual giant, a hero, a teacher, a healer, a great and wise eternal master. But Buddha, Seattle, and Gandhi are too. I believe in Jesus, but not heaven or hell, in a soul, but not the devil, in angels, but not the Christian God, in spirituality, but not religion, in faith, but not any ONE faith as the best one.
So, if hell is my destiny for that, so be it, I go with a clear conscience, by my own choice then.



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