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Would a reborn Mirage-4000 match the latest Mig fighters?

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posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 11:50 AM
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It is curious that India has reportedly refreshed interest in the Mirage 4000 design, years after it was mothballed, superceded by the Rafale. The M4000 is basically an enlarged twin engine Mirage 2000 with enlarged canards (fixed), and the natural evolutionary half-way point between the Mirage 2000 and Rafale. It was flown in the 1980s and then used as a development platform for the Rafale project. In technology terms the original M4000 has been overtaken by the Mirage 2000-5.

At the same time Mig has announced that the Mig-29OVT Fulcrum derivative, with wingtip missile rails and thrust vector control, is to be the “basic” model from now on. Although India is generally reported to be considering the Mig-29M (without TVC or wingtip rails) for its 126 aircraft MRCA (Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) requirement, speculation is that the Mig-29OVT features will now be part of the package.

So how does the Mirage 4000 compare to the Mig-29OVT as an air-air fighter?

Performance
Although the two aircraft are of similar size, the M4000 is far heavier and more powerful, generally being considered analogous to the F-15 Eagle whereas the Mig is generally regarded as more akin to theF-18 Hornet; a middleweight fighter. However, the Mig has a significantly better thrust to weight ratio (at combat weight), giving it better acceleration. But the Mirage’s compound-delta configuration gives it lower high-speed drag which coupled with its substantially more powerful engines allows it to match the Mig’s impressive maximum speed and actually out climb the lighter Mig.

Where the M4000 is weakest, and the Mig strongest, is in low speed maneuvering. Although the compound delta (the small fixed canard in front of the wing) is likely to give the M4000 better slow speed characteristics than conventional delta aircraft, there is no way it could outperform the Mig with its conventional wing layout, positive thrust-weight ratio and thrust vectoring control. The Mig’s agility advantage would be massive.

Beyond visual range combat
The Mig is likely to carry four AA-12 Adder medium range missiles under the wings. It could conceivably carry six, but this would adversely affect performance and is generally less likely. The Mirage had 11 stores stations, but in a revised layout akin to the more recent Mirage 2000-5, it is likely to carry 4 MICA-EM missiles under the fuselage. This allows up to three drop tanks (extra fuel) to be carried for extended CAP.

If we assume that the Mirage would be fitted with the Thales RDC-2 radar set, consistent with the latest Mirage 2000-5 (rather than the more advanced system carried by the Rafale), and that the Mig carries the Zhuk-M/ME, we can attempt a basic comparison.

The Mirage’s RDC-2 set can detect fighter sized targets at a range of about 140km, noticeably better than the Zhuk’M’s estimated 120km (i.e in a head on engagement where both aircraft are traveling at 1000mph and at the same altitude, that equates to a 22.5 second advantage). Where the Zhuk-M outperforms the RDC-2 is in it’s ability to simultaneously track 10 targets, engaging four, whilst the RDC-2 can only track 8, again engaging 4. Which is superior in terms of target discretion, jamming resistance etc is hard to say, but the reputation of the French unit makes it the better bet.

There is no way of conducting an accurate comparison of the AA-12 Adder and MICA-EM in the public setting. But we can make some educated guesses; the MICA is likely to be marginally shorter ranged, but more agile with a slightly superior seeker. But that does not detract from the AA-12’s own impressive agility and range. In practical terms the two systems are probably about equal, with the scales tipping in the MICA’s favour when fire control systems are considered.

Within visual range combat
This is definitely the arena of the Mig. With super-agility and integrated radar and IR targeting sensors, it has a distinct edge over the comparatively straight-line Mirage.

The Mig’s AA-11 Archer short range missile is also significantly better than the Mirage’s Magic2 missiles, although its MICA-EMs are also capable a comparatively short ranges. This deficiency could further be reduced by employing a later generation SRAAM, such as the MICA-IR or Israeli Python 4/5.

Conclusion
In terms of air-air combat the BVR advantage lies with the Mirage although by how much is hard to say (i.e. probably not by a lot), but closer in the Mig would outperform the Mirage by a massive margin.




posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 12:27 PM
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Great stuff


Perhaps the M4000 would add more versatility to the overall IAF's abilities:

Su30 MKI - Air superiority
MiG 21 - Point Defence
M4000 - Area Defence
Jaguar - Strike



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 12:32 PM
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Yes, the Mirage 4000 was concieved as an air superiorority fighter, which in its case meant stooging about with lots of missiles under it in a similar fashion to the RAF Tornado F.3, it cannot compare with todays agile fighters but it might have something to offer regarding endurance, range, and firepower. Allowing for the necessary updates of course. If this is a serious proposal its most likely benefit is simply as the most capable aircraft built indegenously in India so far, rather than its actual capabilities in a global sense.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 01:12 PM
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I think the whole proposal doesn't add up. by the time you cost out a whole new production line, intergaration of the more up to date avionics, possibly newer engines.... it's likely to be very expensive -might as well just go for Rafale which is in every respect a superior aircraft. My only guess is that someone sees it as 'simply' a twin engined M2k5. I doubt that the IAF is taking the M4000 seriously, but I could be wrong.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 07:12 PM
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It really depends on what India wants to do. The Mirage 4000 never saw service and we can suppose there is a lot of work to do concerning weapons and electronics integration. Adequately developped I think it could be quite powerful, it is fast and M53-P3 engines would give it an improve thrust to weight ratio.
The Mirage 4000 is a "designer" solution, i.e. you take it and do what you want to make it complete. It could be an interesting program in that view but India already has the LCA to develop its industrial capabilities so I guess they don't need another indigenous program right now, unless they are not in a hurry to get the new planes into service.

If India wants to buy French the Rafale seems to be a more interesting choice since it's more advanced and already in service, but still offers cooperation opportunities in the field of improving engines, systems, and range (with the conformed tanks).

A Mirage 4000 proposal sounds strange for technical reasons, and for commercial ones, since Dassault already has a very good plane with the Mirage 2000, and really needs to get a first export success for the Rafale.

I'll let you know if I learn more about this rumored Mirage 4000 proposal, since I'm French I might find something in our aerospace magazines.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 07:19 AM
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first, Mirage 4000 has capability to carry more weapon than Mig-29.
second, no weapon can be carried on Fulcrum's wingtip, despite that OVT type has 4 pylons.
But it still is a good analysis, planeman!

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[edit on 10-12-2005 by emile]

Mod Edit: Image Size – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 13/12/2005 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by planeman
It is curious that India has reportedly refreshed interest in the Mirage 4000 design, years after it was mothballed, superceded by the Rafale.


That was an idiotic and errenous report in HT by a DDM .... i request you not to pay too much attention to that bogus article.

www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1866996



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by planeman
It is curious that India has reportedly refreshed interest in the Mirage 4000 design, years after it was mothballed, superceded by the Rafale.


That was an idiotic and errenous report in HT by a DDM .... i request you not to pay too much attention to that bogus article.

www.abovetopsecret.com...&singlepost=1866996



as mentrioned , other than you opinion you have failed to supply ANY evidence whatsoever!

and if you actually read planeman`s post you would see that he thinks its an erronous idea as well.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
as mentrioned , other than you opinion you have failed to supply ANY evidence whatsoever!

and if you actually read planeman`s post you would see that he thinks its an erronous idea as well.


These blunders by the Indian media exclusively in the details of reporting on defence (that has earned then a nickname of DDM) dont create any stir anywhere but these forums.

Check this DDM's strike in the Eurofighter offer article ...


The Eurofighter Typhoon is a five-nation — Germany, France, Italy, the UK, and Spain ...

www.financialexpress.com...


another DDM repeats the BS as well


The Typhoon, a higher-end multirole fighter built jointly by UK, France, Germany and Spain, and set to be their frontline fighter in the years to come, was considered as an option late last year by the UPA government during the visit of the then British Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon.


www.newindpress.com...

this is hilarious ...


...India gets the Gorbachev
aircraft carrier from Russia...


cities.expressindia.com...


Now ... you know their reputation ...

[edit on 10-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by echoblade

If India wants to buy French the Rafale seems to be a more interesting choice since it's more advanced and already in service, but still offers cooperation opportunities in the field of improving engines, systems, and range (with the conformed tanks).

A Mirage 4000 proposal sounds strange for technical reasons, and for commercial ones, since Dassault already has a very good plane with the Mirage 2000, and really needs to get a first export success for the Rafale.

I'll let you know if I learn more about this rumored Mirage 4000 proposal, since I'm French I might find something in our aerospace magazines.


This rumour is total B.S.

The Rafale has been offered and will mostly be included as well (ditto for the Eurofighter) ..

FlightInternational reports ...

...efforts by the French and UK governments to persuade India to add the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon to the shortlist appear to have been successful.

www.flightinternational.com... es/firms+lobby+India+.html

______

Also, will someone tell me what 5th gen programme is spoken of here ? or is it another DDM strike ?


Learning about India's multi-role combat aircraft requirement, the EADS (European Aeronautics and Defence Systems) is pitching for its multi-role Eurofighter Typhoon.

The EADS team which is now visiting India is hopeful that the country can take advantage of the latest technology at a cheaper price, and the Typhoon can be entirely produced here.

EADS executives say that Typhoon is truly multi-role, suitable for air defense, bombing and air superiority missions, and the other advantage is that India would be involved, should it choose, right from R&D stage.

EADS participated in the advanced light helicopter project in the late-Eighties, which is today a success story, and in briefings to the government, it has offered to take India on board its fifth generation fighter aircraft project, which is far well advanced than the Russian project, and the first Typhoons could be delivered by 2006.


www.newsinsight.net...

[edit on 10-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 10:51 AM
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LOL - ok good point , BUT as non native english speakers (hey im trying to give them an excuse as i know there english will be fantastic) , it could be an easy mistake to make??



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
LOL - ok good point , BUT as non native english speakers (hey im trying to give them an excuse as i know there english will be fantastic) , it could be an easy mistake to make??


English is not an issue. 99% of their and everyone's education is done in English .... the only reason for these blunders is because of the poor defence equipment literacy in India .... most reporters (of these small and obscure publications) dont have a clue about what they are reporting on ... and write in junk that they pick from every tom, dick and harry that they meet (who themselves have no clue about it in the first palce)

..and because of the small readership of these publications and the poor defence related literacy these DDM strikes go unnoticed.

In addition these DDM's of small and unreputed publications are frequently bribed by defence deal middlemen/lobbying firms (both foreign & local) to write BS about indigenous developments in a tone that gives the reader a pathetic picture of the indigenous developments and the DRDO ... and also to write stuff that paint a picture that the stuff they market is the favourite in the tender, etc etc... so that the competing foreing weaponry that they lobby for will be purchased ... and these middlemen and their lobbying agencies can pocket a large fortune (usually 0.5 to 2 % of the deal value)


[edit on 10-12-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 11:54 AM
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Emile, the Mig-29 OVT does have wingtip launch rails; it’s one of the key improvements. Here’s a photo of one:

Note the dummy AA-11 round on the wing tip. And it does have 6 underwing pylons, as is usual for Mig-29s.

Re the M4000’s stores pylons, yep, in my analysis I brought the configuration up to date in much the same way the Mirage 2000-5 differs from earlier M2ks. It is true that the M4000 probably has a heavier possible weapons load, around 8000kg compared to around 6000kg for the Mig. But that is a bit of a red herring. The Mig could conceivably carry 6 AA-12s under the wing but it is unlikely to happen. Similarly, Mirages normally carries 2-3 drop tanks, which would thus make a ‘full’ load of missiles impossible. By doing some basic weights analysis I concluded that the M4k has only around 120% the internal fuel of the M2k. It is therefore every bit if not more so reliant on external drop tanks for most operating scenarios than the M2k. The more missiles either plane carries, the lower then performance.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 12:38 PM
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now ... now ... we are starting to have several threads on a few single hoax article ... this is the third one ... enough is enough .... discuss all you want about the IAF, procurement, speculation, etc here >> www.abovetopsecret.com... ... we dont need 3 threads for every article that comes out.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 06:44 AM
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Megamirage can beat everybody. Presented in 1969 Paris Salon, powered with two M-53 engines and capable of Mach 3!!!





posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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So, not content with nicking the Fairey Delta 2 for the original Mirage, those pesky frogs tried pinching the Delta III as well!







posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 01:47 AM
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Originally posted by matej
Megamirage can beat everybody. Presented in 1969 Paris Salon, powered with two M-53 engines and capable of Mach 3!!!

wO!What's this!I've never seen before! Mato, explain to me!



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 01:53 AM
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I just knew that there are fore pylons under Mig-29's each wing.
If the situation like you introduced that there is a pylon on the wingtip, is there still four pylon under Fulcrum's wing?
In terms of your picture on the top, there is four plus wingtip to five each wing.



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by emile

Originally posted by matej
Megamirage can beat everybody. Presented in 1969 Paris Salon, powered with two M-53 engines and capable of Mach 3!!!

wO!What's this!I've never seen before! Mato, explain to me!


Info that I wrote is unfortunatelly everything what I have about this. Can somebody tell more?



posted on Dec, 13 2005 @ 05:31 AM
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Emile, re pylons. Look at the Fulcrum in Matej’s or my avatar, in both cases you can clearly see THREE pylons under each wing. There is also a centerline station for fuel tanks (rarely seen). Now recent models, such as the Mig-29OVT have additional wingtip missile rails as per my post. Lastly, the navalized Mig-29k has FOUR hardpoints under each wing.



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