Originally posted by MagicPriest420

Originally posted by saint4God
[

Jesus disagrees with you.

hey yo whats your deal? and what are you trying to prove to me?..explain something to me real quick...were is god right now? if you say heaven ..then describe it to me? ..explain why god made all the other planets,if all the major things are happening here...what is god? how does a door open in heaven? what are the stars that fall from heaven? what are the four beats?

what if god created the universe? where did these aliens come from? and why does everone think god is a material thing?????? like ok i cant see or touch him he doesnt exist......i have a soul im shure some of you do too.. i cant see or touch my soul but i know its there......the vedics (basically early hindu indians) beleived in different planes of exisistence...different worlds that are not material to this world.....these planes or worlds are endless like our universe with no beginning or end.......but all these planes (including ours) are controlled by the atman.....the atman is like the center...like if you peeled away each universe partical by partical until you found the tiniest particle the center of it all that would be the atman ....they believe atman is the creator of everything.......then comes the brahmin which is like almost the phisical atman......brahmin is the creator of the physical worlds we live in and all the other planes of existence......our senses and so on.........this is where it gets allittle complicated.......then you have what we have come to know as "gods" these are dieties created from and by brahmin.......these dieties though bieng very close to our physical world are often confused and think they are the creators when it is actually through the brahmin that they live and have power just as the brahmin works and exisist because of the atman.....

ok so why is it that centuries ago people could see and talk with these gods where did they go???? well the vedics believe life goes in cycles ...these cycles keep repeating over and over again.....right now we are in a certain cycle that is with out god....not meaning that god is gone but that we have became so materialy attached to this plane of existence that we have forgotten god......like we have built a materialistic wall between us and god ...they said this cycle would be full of chaos and pain and doubt........but this cycle is only for a short time and the materialistic wall will eventually erode away and we will once again be physically close to god....
i know that i do not do justice to the wisdom of the vedics but i try......i also know that this will not change your mind on anything ...as i was not trying too.......i am just trying to answer your question the best way i can.....
i do believe in aliens but i dont believe they were thought of as gods.....
i claim no religion ...but i do believe in god and i love em very much.........

oh yea..why is the bible not the word of god...its because the word of god is aum..........

plague...this is a good post and something for all of us to consider^^^^^

The Word of GOD

No... The Bible is not the "word "of GOD...

Jesus Christ, the Living Logos, is The Word of GOD!

[edit on 21-12-2005 by cosmokatt7]

Originally posted by plague
what if god created the universe?

He did.

Originally posted by plague
where did these aliens come from?

Also from God. The thing about being the Creator of the universe is that He creates all things, not just Canadians, European or Africans, but everything.

Originally posted by plague
and why does everone think god is a material thing??????

I do not.

Originally posted by plague
ok so why is it that centuries ago people could see and talk with these gods where did they go????

I talk with God. He has answered too. Indirectly and directly.

[edit on 21-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Fromabove
Let's first answer this question so we can try on the "who created God" thing.

I am a little surprised that people are really discussing "who created God." Surely everyone can sense that this is a conundrum, not a sensible question. I don't claim to be clever enough to unravel cunning fabrications of this sort, so I don't pay attention to them. Does anyone?

For what it's worth, this one involves a linguistic trick. God=uncreated first cause. By definition if he was created he is not God. The sentence, then, is nonsense. While it is possible in English to create nonsense sentences, they do not acquire meaning simply because the word 'God' appears in them.

"One fine day in the middle of the night
Two dead men got up to fight
Back to back they faced each other
Drew their swords and shot each other."
-- traditional.

I haven't read back through the thread to see who injected this 'question', or rather jeer, into it. I suggest, tho, that someone do so and obtain an explanation from the poster.

No political system, no religion, no set of principles is immune to dishonest criticism. Let us evaluate all beliefs equally, fairly and honestly, including those which refuse to be discussed and demand instead to be taken as a default, like the societal values of any period of history.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[edit on 21/12/2005 by roger_pearse]

I agree with you Roger Pearse. In order to have a relevent discussion of the issues we need to at least take some approach to it. The "who created God" crowd doesn't want to rise to the occasion. I don't really expect a thread conversion crusade as they cannot convert me to atheism. It is after all a discussion of the issues I am looking for. If a person doesn't believe in God, give me the reason why, don't insult and accuse what you can't understand, give me the support for "why" you personally cannot (and I do me personally) accept the concept that there is God. Use science, use personal belief, but give me something to think about and consider. Again, thanks Roger Pearse for pointing it towards that end.

Fromabove

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Graystar
Let me leave you with this question: Ever wonder why so many atheist are so concerned with debunking Jesus more than any other Historical figure?

(sneer snipped) the answer to the question you ask should be obvious. Yours is the dominant religion in the west, and is intrusive in the lives of those who don't share it.

Your own religious position -- conformity to societal values -- is incredibly more intrusive in the lives of every single person in our society, and imposed without discussion or debate.

If Christians just kept their religion private, few would care about whether or not there was a historical Jesus, or who he was. But they don't.

I see no practical difference between this and a naked demand for silencing of religious positions other than your own.

Blue laws are still on the books, evangelicals keep trying to sneak prayer and religion into the public schools and plaster the 10 commandments all over public buildings. Drugs are illegal for religious reasons, as is prostitution, gambling, etc. Christians try to pass laws to regulate what adults do in their bedrooms, or to limit the legal rights of nontraditional relationships.

This all ignores the endless efforts of atheists to force their own laws upon a largely Christian population, to criminalise the practise of that religion in public, to force laws upon that public to legalise many things such as prostitution, gambling, sodomy, etc, and so on.

Those who seek to secularise society need not be heard when they complain that Christians resist. "Look, he's attacking me" is an old cover for picking a fight.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Saint4god I just have to ask you this question. Why do you choose to be close to a God that will condemn you to hell if you do not bow down and beg his forgiveness for every wrong breath you take? Why do you want to be close to this God that supposedly loves you "unconditionally", but is nothing but an egomaniac? (Yes, I can say this because I don't tend to place the worst traits of humankind on my God). You do this because you are afraid you will burn in hell for all of eternity, right? Or are your motives pure? Are any Christians motives pure? I'm not so sure.

I can't be made to believe that God (if there even is a God) is jealous, vengeful and bitter (sounds like the devil to me). To me....this is the conspiracy. It's a conspiracy allright. A conspiracy into scaring the crap out of all of us so that we will do the right thing in society. It's served it's purpose....it is no longer needed. We know the rules to live by and can certainly instill those things into our children without this Book.

Religion is the root of all evil. Many innocent men, women and children have died because of it. It's sad and I personally believe it is shameful.

Originally posted by cosmokatt7
The Word of GOD

No... The Bible is not the "word "of GOD...

Jesus Christ, the Living Logos, is The Word of GOD!

[edit on 21-12-2005 by cosmokatt7]

are you aware that both the concept and the term "Logos", in the exact form and context in which you use it, predates Christianity by (at least) several centuries?
It actually predates monotheism (and therefore Judaism).

just curious if you knew about that...

[edit on 22-12-2005 by Al Davison]

God made the universe. He sets the rules and so on. Satan is His enemy and therefore is a copycat. To those of us who worship God, and His Son
Jesus, we don't do so from fear. Only those that deny God need to fear, but we do so because He loves us and we will be with Him forever, long after this universe is over. Satan didn't want to give God any thanks. That is why he is an enemy of God. If anyone goes to hell, it is not God that will send them there out of hatred, but because He is just. Those that go into hell send themselves there. When you deny God, you deny life eternal. Some don't like that, but that's the way it is. We are the created and He is the Creator. We belong to Him.

Fromabove

That is ridiculous and a very poor example of why someone should take the leap of faith to believe in God. To have eternal life? Sounds like a motive to me.

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to John Adams, 1826

[edit on 22-12-2005 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28
Saint4god I just have to ask you this question.

Certainly, I shall do my best.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Why do you choose to be close to a God that will condemn you to hell if you do not bow down and beg his forgiveness for every wrong breath you take?

That's not the God I know. The one I know sent His son to pay the penalty for my sins and purchase a place for me in heaven. If I bowed down and begged forgiveness for every wrong breath, I'd spend my whole day on my face. Yeah, I repent for the wrongs I do now and then, asking for His help to change. I also thank Him for all he has given me, and share my thoughts and concerns. It's a personal relationship, we can talk to Him about anything.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Why do you want to be close to this God that supposedly loves you "unconditionally", but is nothing but an egomaniac?

He's not an egomaniac. What kind of egomaniac sacrifice's his son to save those who believe in Him? He's quite selfless, loving, kind, patient and thinks very highly of us when we come to grips with what we do.

Originally posted by zenlover28
(Yes, I can say this because I don't tend to place the worst traits of humankind on my God). You do this because you are afraid you will burn in hell for all of eternity, right?

No, I didn't believe in Hell when I started my search for God. I believed in oblivion. I welcomed nothingness with open arms, ready for death. I feared nothing. I don't know the point of shouting, "YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!" to anyone. What does that mean to someone who doesn't believe in Hell? Nothing. Besides, God wants you to come to Him out of love, not try to earn heaven because "we're good in class", afraid of being caught, so to speak.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Or are your motives pure?

Yes, and you're welcomed to test me. The Book I read says, "Test everything." and "test the spirits". I don't see why I should be treated any differently. I have nothing to gain, no "brownie points" to get into heaven, because as mentioned afore, you cannot earn your way to heaven.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Are any Christians motives pure? I'm not so sure.

The better question is, is Christ pure? And the answer is yes. Don't follow any person who says, "bow down and worship me." Always check their motivation and make sure it is pure.

Originally posted by zenlover28
I can't be made to believe that God (if there even is a God) is jealous, vengeful and bitter (sounds like the devil to me).

God's jealousy isn't to be confused with mankind's jealousy. Mankind's jealousy is riddled with hate, fear, rage, and other unsavory things. God loves us and wants us to do right....and gets jealous when we cause him and others wrongs. Vengeance and Justice are two different words. In order to see if something is Just, one has to not only view the punishment, but also the crimes commited to see if it is properly served. Bitter I don't see at all. If He were bitter, He would not give us the opportunity for us to be forgiven.

Originally posted by zenlover28
To me....this is the conspiracy. It's a conspiracy allright. A conspiracy into scaring the crap out of all of us so that we will do the right thing in society. It's served it's purpose....it is no longer needed. We know the rules to live by and can certainly instill those things into our children without this Book.

Religion is the root of all evil. Many innocent men, women and children have died because of it. It's sad and I personally believe it is shameful.

Glad to see you're open-minded about the questions you've put before me . I can tell by this dissertation, that my answers will be carefully thought about and considered...or will they not?


[edit on 22-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Fromabove
If a person doesn't believe in God, give me the reason why, don't insult and accuse what you can't understand, give me the support for "why" you personally cannot (and I do me personally) accept the concept that there is God.

If that's what you wanted to know, you should have just asked. The answer is, there's no reason to believe there are any gods.

A premise presented without reason can be dismissed without reason.

I'm sorry Saint4God but it still makes not sense to me. Thanks for trying though!

*Sigh* Jesus is called the Word of God because he is living fullfilled prophecy not a piece of paper.

Originally posted by zenlover28
That is ridiculous and a very poor example of why someone should take the leap of faith to believe in God. To have eternal life? Sounds like a motive to me.

Yes, there is a motive. For YOU to have eternal life. No-one else has any gains other than that.

Originally posted by zenlover28
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

--Thomas Jefferson in a letter to John Adams, 1826

Ratz, and I thought I'd get to meet Thomas Jefferson. I wonder what John Adams said to TJ to cause him to say that? I wonder if it was this:


"We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!" [April 18, 1775] - John Adams and John Hancock

Or maybe it was something like this:

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress


Aha! Here's something he wrote to Thomas:

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

Hm, who knows? Maybe I will. After all, Thomas did say:

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."


[edit on 22-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by cosmokatt7
The Word of GOD

No... The Bible is not the "word "of GOD...

Jesus Christ, the Living Logos, is The Word of GOD!

Too often the Solar Logos is confused with literal writings such as the Bible. The Word, Verb, or Logos does not refer to the Bible. The Logos is the the Living Verb of God that vibrates through all of creation.

Logos: (Greek) means Verb or Word. In Greek and Hebrew metaphysics, the unifying principle of the world. The Logos is the manifested deity of every nation and people; the outward expression or the effect of the cause which is ever concealed. (Speech is the "logos" of thought). The Logos has three aspects, known universally as the Trinity or Trimurti. The First Logos is the Father, Brahma. The Second Logos is the Son, Vishnu. The Third Logos is the Holy Spirit, Shiva. One who incarnates the Logos becomes a Logos.

John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

John 1:1-14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
The First Logos is the Father, Brahma. The Second Logos is the Son, Vishnu. The Third Logos is the Holy Spirit, Shiva. One who incarnates the Logos becomes a Logos.

I'm not finding Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in my Bible, can you point out where they are?

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm not finding Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in my Bible, can you point out where they are?

These words are not found in the bible. The concepts which they represent however, are.

This is the reason that these words were included in the definition. To show that the concepts such as the "Word of God" and the "Trinity" are inclusive of many religious systems and faiths.

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic



[edit on 22/12/2005 by AkashicWanderer]

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
These words are not found in the bible. The concepts which they represent however, are.

This is the reason that these words were included in the definition. To show that the concepts such as the "Word of God" and the "Trinity" are inclusive of many religious systems and faiths.

Inverencial Peace,
Akashic

I see, but is this not a different trinity?