Originally posted by worldwatcher
Man wrote every religious book in existence, if he didn't we wouldn't have them.

And while the Bible or any holy book for that matter isn't the exact word of God, he didn't dictate while someone wrote, all the holy books in existence are divinely inspired. God inspired man to write these tales to reach out and touch his fellow man's spirit.

That is the problem Worldwatcher, the bible was Inspired and as such it should also come with a buyer's guide to instruct the reader as the possibility of human intent while was written by human Inspired men.

But many will take like it was God's own hands that wrote it occurs not matter how human the bible may be.

Its nothing wrong with been Inspired but please leave room to my own interpretations.

I live in the south, and as such I have come to this conclusion.

Most pastors, ministers, etc. from around here are from here or the mountains. As such, their education is...well...not very good. They are unintelligent, and they decide to follow in their father's/brother's/uncle's footsteps on becoming a pastor. Now, they may go off to school to become a certified preacher, or whatever, but truth be told they believe what they want to believe.

Now, let’s look at a normal congregation down here. They are hicks, uneducated, illiterate, and pretty much fools. Not all, but enough to where it counts.

Now, you throw in the preacher saying that the Bible is THE word of god, written by his hand. The congregation sees what he says as the only interpretation worth listening to, so they then see it at THE word of god and written by his hand. Many other fallacies come from this cycle.

Take Dungeons and Dragons, Harry Potter, and other religions. The preacher sees dnd as evil and satanic because his father/brother/uncle said it was when he was younger, so he passes it on to a new group of people. Harry Potter suffers the same thing, as well as other religions to them.

This then breeds a new person who wants to be a preacher, pastor, minister, etc. and the cycle continues.

I will give you 2 examples –

1. My family is Mormon; my dad was trying to explain that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ and contains the revelations given to a people living in Central America. Now, this woman my dad was explaining it to was a Southern Baptist country hick – and as such she then said “well why didn’t God give them the Bible, because he wrote it for us why couldn’t he for them?” This comes from the cycle.

2. I was sitting in my in-law’s Southern Baptist congregation, and the preacher was talking about how the Bible says that the word of god is sealed in heaven, then he pounds his Bible and says “this Bible is sealed in heaven, not those other Bibles that other churches use like the new international Bible, this Bible is SEALED IN HEAVEN.” Obviously, this man doesn’t know that the KJV of the Bible was put together by a committee that voted on what to keep in and what to hide away.

This is from my observation of people down here where I was raised, this has no backup other than what I am saying, and this is what I believe from experience.

P.S. – please don’t bash the Mormons on here, I am a member and believe in my religion as I have my right to.

Originally posted by spamandham
I'm glad to hear that hope rescued you, but the answer to the question you ask should be obvious. Yours is the dominant religion in the west, and is intrusive in the lives of those who don't share it.

As though they feel threatened by the mere presence of another religion, like there being question on the basis of who they are, fear.

that right up there ^ is a great point. whenever someone finds out i'm a buddhist they react in one of three ways:
1) they think i'm kidding.
2) they get defensive and ask me why i turned away from god.
3) they laugh at me for making a "bad choice which i'll laugh at in the future"
well there is
4) particularly open minded people ask me about buddhism because they don't understand it well enough to talk about it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
that right up there ^ is a great point. whenever someone finds out i'm a buddhist they react in one of three ways:
1) they think i'm kidding.
2) they get defensive and ask me why i turned away from god.
3) they laugh at me for making a "bad choice which i'll laugh at in the future"
well there is
4) particularly open minded people ask me about buddhism because they don't understand it well enough to talk about it.

Surely you have heard, in your buddhist studies, the proverb: 'Learn to respond instead of react.'

You left out the 'reaction' that is really a response, from your list. Because that response is silent and goes unnoticed (as it should).

Just pointing that out so that you might be reminded that there are some in the world, non buddhists, who have no problem with you because of your chosen spiritual path.

Originally posted by plague
actually number 10 is about the sabath day and keeping it holy........

That would be #4. #10 is regarding covetousness. Check Exodus chapter 20.

Originally posted by kalki
I have few books by Dr. Edmond Bordeaux Szekely, who translated information on the Essenes from manuscripts in the Library of the Vatican, the Library of the Hapsburgs in Vienna and the Library of the British Museum starting in 1927. No bible mention the Ancient Essenes.. 200 BC to 67 AD, even if Jesus was part of that communiity.

Actually, I think there is speculation that He came from the Mt. Carmel Essenes, which was an older community than the Southern one at Qumran. The more established Northern Essene community is a very likely candidate for where Joseph moved his family to, following his dream indicating he could go back to Israel from Egypt, since Herod was dead. Joseph was still quite leary of the King, for although Herod was dead, Herod's family were still in the seat of royalty, and these people didn't hesitate to kill their own flesh and blood for fear of being deposed...

Considering the Essenes were separatists who were amazingly allowed this in that age and society, by the other two Jewish sects, and left alone by the Romans (mostly), as well as dedicated adherents to the laws given to Moses, it would be an acceptable place, safe and discreet, to raise a young Jewish boy who the Herods viewed as a direct threat requiring extermination....

The commonly accepted tradition of 'Jesus of Nazareth' is actually an impossibility, since Nazareth did not exist during His lifetime. 'The parts of Galilee.' that Joseph brought his family to, compasses an area. due west of the Sea of Galilee, that includes both what would later be the site of Nazareth and the then-inhabitated area around Mt. Carmel.

The Mt. Carmel Essenes were also known as Nazoreans, or Nazarenes, and we read of the 'vows of the Nazarite' in the books of Numbers
(ch 6) and Judges, in the OT canon. Samson was a Nazarite (whose name means 'sunlight.')

Matthew 2:23 mentions 'Nazarene' and so it was passed down and accepted as 'fact' that Jesus was from Nazareth, when in all likelihood and probability, it is actually a reference to him being a 'Nazarite'/'Nazorean.'

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Graystar
Let me leave you with this question: Ever wonder why so many atheist are so concerned with debunking Jesus more than any other Historical figure?

I'm glad to hear that hope rescued you, but the answer to the question you ask should be obvious. Yours is the dominant religion in the west, and is intrusive in the lives of those who don't share it.

If Christians just kept their religion private, few would care about whether or not there was a historical Jesus, or who he was. But they don't.

Blue laws are still on the books, evangelicals keep trying to sneak prayer and religion into the public schools and plaster the 10 commandments all over public buildings. Drugs are illegal for religious reasons, as is prostitution, gambling, etc. Christians try to pass laws to regulate what adults do in their bedrooms, or to limit the legal rights of nontraditional relationships.

Not to mention that the US is at war right now probably because of Bush's religious delusions.

Good reply ... It could be argued pretty easily that Jesus warned his fellow man of the rise of the christian church, which would worship a false god in his name, and persecute millions by using the same name,, Jesus ...

His words can be twisted but they are quite clear ..
If they don't repent they should all die,, according to the son of man ..

If bush doesn't kill them someone else will, you can be sure of that ...
Some other smooth talking Kat would convince them(using a bible) to lay down their patriotic lives for some " greater cause" ...

Is there any difference between a christian soldier and a muslim suicide bomber, other than the probability of death?
If not, there is no reason why they can't get along ...

I can fully understand the position of a person who would like to see religion removed entirely from society ,,, If you take it away you take a lot of trouble along with it ...

ok...here goes..

No, the Bible isn't the literal word of God. Yes, the Bible is composed of writings influenced by higher thinking individuals(think Einstein, on a religious level), maybe even divine intervention.

spamandham - I agree with some of the things you argue, however I beleive it is absurd to say that religion plays the dominant role against drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc. It all goes back to the good/evil debate really.

Drugs, I agree, have been part of historical cultures all over the world. Drugs are illegal for one main reason though. It's because they cause lapses in judgment that lead to crime, violence, spread of disease, and death. Now you can argue that some drugs (marijuana maybe?) aren't that bad. But, think about the number of deaths and acts of violence that are attributed to booze, crack, coc aine, acid, whichever drug of choice suits you, every single day. Have you lost anyone to a drunk driver? Do you know anyone that had a family member overdose? How many people are mugged, killed, raped, or harmed by some sort of druggie every day? That is why drugs are illegal. It's because they cause harm. Yes, you can argue that politics plays a part in all that, but it could be worse. Religion, I'm afraid, doesn't play too big a part in drug laws.

Prostitution: I agree that religion may play a minor role, but think about this. In some countries, women are kidnapped and forced into prostitution. Would you want your mother/sister/wife to go through that ordeal? That is why prostitution is illegal. It goes not against the religiously forced, but the human implied "good/evil moral code". Maybe some women want to sell their bodies to make money, and I'm sure some enjoy it. Prostitution does exist legally in some states.

What you miss though, is that prostitution, as well as a majority of the drug phenomena, makes money for the "puppetmasters". They are forms of population control implemented to keep the prisons full and force poverty on the lower class.



One of the problems with the world is: So many people are set on seeing religion as a bad thing, that they are blocking the view of the people that need it the most. You may not like Christianity, or any religion for that matter, but that doesn't mean it is a bad thing. Live and let live. Just because you don't think something is right in your eyes, it doesn't mean you can force your opinion on someone else.

That last sentence should be read to relgious leaders too. Too many are concerned with others to the point that they don't see that the very foundation they preach upon is crumbling beneath their feet. We have to find our own answers...



now, since nobody else paid any attention to Nygdan's post, I'll try to get this thread ON-TOPIC...

I personally believe in the Bible from a historical standpoint, not necissarily a literal one.

The translation of the Bible has been altered so much through history, that it can't be taken literally.

Yes, the Bible is a good work for anyone seeking guidance in their life, but the CONSPIRACY comes in when ancient leaders had it translated in a way that helped control their kingdoms. I can dig up some evidence as to particular leaders, but I'm kinda tired right now....

Think about the church fathers, who intentionally left out works such as the Book of Enoch.....They did this to hide the whole truth. It's just like today's governments. We only get a partial truth. The only flaw though, is that "the powers that be" disregard the human spirit enough to think we can't find truth on our own. That is everyone's challenge for today. Find out your own truth.

As far as the war in Iraq being religious, it very well may be fueled by that. At least, that is what "they" want you to believe. Deny Ignorance......

Originally posted by JSquared
spamandham - I agree with some of the things you argue, however I beleive it is absurd to say that religion plays the dominant role against drugs, prostitution, gambling, etc. It all goes back to the good/evil debate really.

The claim is not so much that these things are presently illegal because of religion - a point for another discussion - but rather, that these things were originally criminalized for religious reasons. I really don't see how anyone could argue against that with a straight face. Personally, I don't think anything fundamental changed about humans that required practices that had been legal for most of human history to be criminalized, but it's probably best not to divert this thread into a modern political discussion.

Originally posted by JSquared
Prostitution: I agree that religion may play a minor role, but think about this. In some countries, women are kidnapped and forced into prostitution. Would you want your mother/sister/wife to go through that ordeal? That is why prostitution is illegal.
...
Prostitution does exist legally in some states.

Don't answer this question, just think about it; in Nevada, what fraction of prostitutes do you think are practicing as the result of being kidnapped and forced into it?

Originally posted by JSquared
You may not like Christianity, or any religion for that matter, but that doesn't mean it is a bad thing. Live and let live.

I agree completely, which is why I am not promoting the criminalization of religion. But, that doesn't mean I'm going to bite my lip when people start spouting what I consider to be nonsense. By doing that, they have violated the live and let live principle, and no longer deserve to be treated as if they had kept it private. I also do not stand idly by while the religious right attempts to turn the US into a theocracy or to redact history to make it look like the deist and live-and-let-live Christian fathers of the nation were fundamentalist nutjobs maniacially plotting the assassination of foreign leaders in the name of Jesus. cough cough Pat Robertson cough cough

Originally posted by JSquared
Just because you don't think something is right in your eyes, it doesn't mean you can force your opinion on someone else.

WTF? Who's talking about forcing opinions on people? Certainly not I. Do you really consider public discussion to be a form of coersion?

Originally posted by JSquared
As far as the war in Iraq being religious, it very well may be fueled by that. At least, that is what "they" want you to believe. Deny Ignorance......

If you take the "all politicians are liers" approach, it is more difficult to know what their true motives are, and you're certainly justified in making such an assumption.

WTF? Who's talking about forcing opinions on people? Certainly not I. Do you really consider public discussion to be a form of coersion?

lol...don't get so defensive...

That was meant for the general population, not directed specifically at you...

Its either the word of lunatics or the word of people trying to control other people or a little of both. There is no proof other than faith that any religeous material was inspired by a God. None period. Just words of other men.

That does not mean that the bible does not provide good moral guidance to live by but their is nothing to prove that the bible or any religous material is inspired by an all powerfull creator or loving or unloving god.

This does not even mean there is no god it just means that there is no proof on this planet that a god exists or ever exisited other than the word of other men.

You may chose to have faith in the words written by those other men or not.

God may be there but he has not given us any tangible proof of his existance except what we assign in our heads as that proof mostly faith in the writting of long dead men.

Miracles happen to unbelievers. Miraculous happenings are not proof of a creator.

I think people cling to religion because not doing so means admiting our own exisitance may be finite. We live then we are gone. Thats hard to accept but likely true. Its why I still vaguely cling to hope of a god and creator.

X

xeven, you forgot narcotics, narcotics may have been involved as well.

[I felt the same way, when the first time i read the bible. I think all religious people in the world were being "CHEATED" by the prophets and all they so call holy person. Did the god it self ever "POINTED" one person to be a "HOLY PERSON or PROPHETS" ? What if all the words in all HOLY BOOKS are the DEVILS words ? WANNA TAKE THE RISK ??

Originally posted by plague
.....as for as drugs ,gambaling, and prostitution ..these are things that i believe are moraly degrading.......and by openly inviting these things into a society your are unleashing an evil far greater than the devil or any other evil religious deity........

You're joking right? I'm an American living in Switzerland, In spitting distance to my front door there is a sex shop, I lived here 6 months before knowing that. Its private, clean, and regulated by the government.

Gambling? Can do it in almost every resteraunt and bar. Regulated of course. Drugs, well marijuanna is available from small herb shops. If you are a hard drug addict everything will be done to make sure you have every chance to get your life together. Therapy? Of course! methadone? no problem! If you can't get your stuff togther and you choose to be a junkie you have to do your drugs in private. In fact there is a "spritzastubli" (shootintg room) supported by the city just down the road. Need clean needles,condoms, birth control? All available.

Guess what!? No evil has been unleasehed here! In fact, the streets are clean, the public transport runs on time, crime is very low, and poor peole go on vacations!

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
that right up there ^ is a great point. whenever someone finds out i'm a buddhist they react in one of three ways:
1) they think i'm kidding.
2) they get defensive and ask me why i turned away from god.
3) they laugh at me for making a "bad choice which i'll laugh at in the future"
well there is
4) particularly open minded people ask me about buddhism because they don't understand it well enough to talk about it.

I'm intrested in Buddhism. Where on the web can I go and find out more?

D

Originally posted by apocalypta
Guess what!? No evil has been unleasehed here! In fact, the streets are clean, the public transport runs on time, crime is very low, and poor peole go on vacations!

Unfortunately, those who claim that prostitution, drugs, and gambling cause the downfall of civilization never bother to examine whether or not such a claim is actually true. There are boundless historical and even modern examples to draw from that prove such a claim is patently false, but they won't be considered. Why? Because it really is about imposing ones religious beliefs on all of society via the law.

Criminalizing these activities is the experiment, not the other way around.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist

Who is to say that the authors of these books are not corrupt people perpetuating a lie?

Who is to say God is not omnipotent and omnipresent? If God (AKA Truth #1) does not exist everywhere, evertime, everywhen, everyhow, everthing, then it simply is not God, because it does not fit the definition of what God would have to be in order to be God.

Therefore: Just because a person is consciously corrupt (subject to their own fears and hates) does not mean the subconscious that elevated the conscious to the point of incompetence is corrupt.

If my God isn't everywhere, it is not my God. Now, as for how to interpret the truth (your truth), you can not approach your truth without conquering your own fears and hates first.

Keep a diary. As you write, know that no one else shall ever read it.

I looked at this thread a few times. Sat, thought, wondered if anything I'd say would make a lick of difference compared to the last hundred-some times I've said something about the topic here on ATS. Well, probably not, however when working with that word - probably - means there is a chance no matter how remotely small, that it actually would make a lick of difference. So, here's the salt-cube in our ATS cage:

If you're looking at the word of God, to determine if God exists, you're missing the critical element of what the Word itself has to say about it. The Word tells us we can have a personal relationship with God. That is to say to know Him, the alive Him, and not be dependant on just words in a book. Here's the right direction to look. Go to God and ask Him if this is His word. Having problems communicating with Him? Haven't received the free gift of eternal life but want it? If this salt-cube makes you thirsty, send U2U for details, I'll help those truly interested in getting these things.

My view, based on nothing more than my feelings and thoughts, about the writers whose works appear in the canon is that they were quite sincere. They believed what they wrote. Most did not know that their works would appear as part of a bound volume and spread across the entire known world in translations in to every language. How could they? There was no concept of "Bible" or canon at the time most were written.

Indeed, some of those authors, if they were to be brought back into the world today would probably say "Doh! I wish I hadn't written that!" or they might want to revise some of the sections or they might take offense because those writings were personal and were only meant to be shared with a few people. Some would say "how in the world did you get that out of what I wrote?!".

Every single hand that has touched any of the manuscripts for copying (remember, that used to be done by hand) and/or translating has undoubtedly introduced some variation - call it "error" if you like. But, back to my original point, I have some doubts as to assigning any agenda or sinister purpose to those "mistakes". OK, maybe there was some political influences - in fact, almost certainly there were some at certain points. But, that was also happening with the histories and philosophical writings, too.

The thing that makes the commonly accepted Bible suspect, in my mind, is not the copying/editing/translation error/deletions/insertions - it's more that we've lost the context and the ability to understand the difference between what is history, legend, play-writing, story-telling, etc. Know what? I doubt G-d cares very much about any of that. It's probably not really G-d's word as much as it is a collection of stories that help people think about how they should treat each other - some good advice (love people) and some bad advice (smite people).

"The Bible reports - you decide!" - fair and balanced, huh?