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Does Stanley Tookie Williams deserve clemency??

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posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
goose, I mean positive things by the word "rhetoric." Here is some rhetoric that also reflects the truth:


But yet you say you take pride in not being very good at it.

So let me get this straight, there has never once been ,since you started paying attention, a case where someone has received the death penalty that you thought it was unjustified or questioned it. So in truth once someone has been condemned to death whether there is a chance their innocent ot not you just don't care, you say say kill them. You are 100% for the death penalty and think it is justified. Would you mind telling me your age? Tell me yours and I will tell you mine. I am betting you are in your twenties and a republican. Am I right?




posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 11:29 AM
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No. Actually, what I said was, I take pride in my skills, limited as they are. Meaning, I wish I was better at the art of rhetoric. For some reason, you're convinced there's a put-down for you in there, somewhere. But there's not.

****

. . . . Suddenly, this is about me?

Look, at this point, you're obviously more interested in going after me than you are in my opinions.

But, not being able to refute the reasonable-ness of my opinions, you're hoping to attack me on a personal level.

And I'm not going to give you the ammo. If I'm wrong and you are right, convince me. Or better yet, convince the lurkers who are making up their own minds by reading our exchange.

Would my views be invalidated by my age or political affiliation?

39. non-republican.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

And I'm not going to give you the ammo. If I'm wrong and you are right, convince me. Or better yet, convince the lurkers who are making up their own minds by reading our exchange.


Lurker (on this topic) checking in. I'd vote for clemency for "Tookie", but not based on the merits of his case but based on my opposition to the death penalty. Hence i haven't gotten involved in the "Tookie" debate specifically.


Would my views be invalidated by my age or political affiliation?


They shouldn't be, but i don't need to tell you the world don't work that way. Just to be clear, if i had to make a list of my top 10 ATS contributors you'd be on it..probably top 5.


Just wanted to show some support...of 'course i don't support your position...but then again i'm an enigma.



39. non-republican.


Me too...


*slowly creeps back into the shadows where it's safe*



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by Rren

Just wanted to show some support...of 'course i don't support your position...but then again i'm an enigma.




My hope is to be able to ardently and strenuously disagree with a person, without having to retreat into personal attacks.

But in today's culture, all of us tend to take any criticism of our opinions as an indictment of our person-hood. Certainly, I need to learn to make my point effectively without inciting the rage of my debating partners. But then, they'd need to do the same.

We'd all need pretty thick skins for that to work.

It's sad that debate is a dying art.

A good debate can be really . . . exhilirating. It's a moment you share with your partner, when you are both emotionally vulnerable to each other . . . almost naked. And debating in public has a certain exhibitionistic . . . .

*ahem.*

thanks for your feedback.

.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 12:15 PM
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why do people not believe in the death penelty????
you know you dont go to deathrow for nothing (unless you are wrongfully accused)....in my opinion (and that is all it is) he didnt care about there or his freedom....do you think sitting on deathrow effects him any...no i dont think he realy cares......why should we waist our tax money on him???? i mean ok why not just release him??? you know, if he shouldnt pay for the crime of multiple non accidental deaths (not to mention of starting the gang movement ..which through his name has commited acts of violence and yes more murder ) thru death then why should we leave him on death row...........hey i got a great idea ..why not release him and put him in charge of a daycare/rec center program....where he can teach and mentor kids..........would you send your kid there????



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by plague
why do people not believe in the death penelty????


Short answer: (my opinion) It's uncivilized and i think it serves no purpose. Most death penalty advocates state that it's justice. I say vengence, and i do my best not to dabble in that. But as the good Doc. has shown us there's a reasonable and intelligent counter argument....i simply choose to - respectably disagree.



....do you think sitting on deathrow effects him any...no i dont think he realy cares......


How could you possibly know this. Even if he's the monster you (and the courts admittedly) say he is, i'm still sure that knowing the day and hour of your death is something that would concern anybody. Of course that's irrelevant i guess.



why should we waist our tax money on him????


The price of being civilized imho.



i mean ok why not just release him???


He's been found guilty of heinous crimes which require him to spend the rest of his time on earth behind bars.



you know, if he shouldnt pay for the crime of multiple non accidental deaths (not to mention of starting the gang movement ..


How easy do you think life behind bars is? Regardless of your position on the death penalty he is paying for his crimes and has been for some time now. Killing him is not justice imho, but vengence.



..why not release him and put him in charge of a daycare/rec center program....where he can teach and mentor kids..........would you send your kid there????


Nope. But from what i understand no one is advocating his release, only that his sentence be reduced from death to life in prison. I don't think however that we should be arguing this on a case by case basis....ala the merits of "Tookie's" case. If we're to have a death penalty or not is the question imho. But not for this thread i guess.

There's my .02 ..... Who has my change?



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:04 PM
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Or the intriguing lack of it for convicted death row inmates who have their sentences carried out. This may seem simplistic, but it is constantly overlooked. There just hasn't been one case of recidivistic behavior by any executed criminals... Just the ones who are get commuted sentences and clemency.

www.dpinfo.com...

Tookie should have some impressive vasculature from all that time working out in prison... That should be two of the easiest "sticks" they'll ever have to do...



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by thermopolis

Originally posted by FlyersFan


I'm against the death penalty.


If you are a christian how can you be against the death penalty?

Christ could have saved the two thieves he was with but did not.

He could have saved John the Babtist, but did not.

God could have not destroyed the planet with a flood.

The death penalty is going to be applied to all not written into the book of life in the end.

Christians against the death penalty miss the teachings of the bible.


Jesus did save John and one of the thieves, he just did not stop their deaths



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
But, tell me. Can you imagine a situation were a criminal could be justifiably executed? IS there a place, a time or a crime, where execution is a fitting punishment???


As far as rhetoric goes, Im with you. Its hard to debate with someone who is foaming-at-the-mouth with hatred for your views and it takes energy away from the subject at hand when you become the focus of their anger.

In regards to your question, the cold-blooded killing of a child is a crime that begs for the execution. If the proof is beyond doubt, to include DNA evidence, than that Monster needs to be removed from our planet ASAP.

Tookie Williams killed these poor people in cold blood and God knows how many murders he got away with. He does deserves to Die and the only injustice here is that it took so long.

Maximu§



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:18 PM
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Just an fyi, CNN just reported that both courts have denied a stay of execution and they are now waiting on the GOvenator to make a decision.

I find it hard to believe that Arnold Swartsenagger would give him a stay, but you never know.

Spiderj



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by Spiderj

I find it hard to believe that Arnold Swartsenagger would give him a stay, but you never know.

Spiderj


Imagine being on Death Row with "The Terminator" having the last say on your life-or-Death? There is a media "Jihad" against Arnold, but he's a good man with an impossible job (fixing California) and I think Tookie better make peace with his maker.

Arnold will do the right thing.

Max



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:30 PM
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There was a time when I would have fought to defend capital punishment but now that I grow older in life and faith I'm beginning to question the "lawful" killing of another human being.

Maybe life in prison without the possibility of parole would be the right thing.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by Yetichi
i really believe his execution will start another race war here in america. the war has started in australia. this will be exciting to watch!!


So? if they really want a 'race war' which i dont think they do, they will really reap the consequences....



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:34 PM
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Arnold has just denied clemency.

It's over folks.

Spiderj



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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I knew he would do the right thing.


Its time for this Monster to pay for the lives he took. I hope Arnold has activated the National Guard.


Max



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by kinglizard
There was a time when I would have fought to defend capital punishment but now that I grow older in life and faith I'm beginning to question the "lawful" killing of another human being.
Maybe life in prison without the possibility of parole would be the right thing.


I agree. But I won't be shedding any tears for this guy, either. I personally don't believe in capital punishment, but there's a whole bunch of other issues to resolve before I'll consider that to be at the top of my list.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 04:35 PM
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Will the death of this murderer really cause riots? If so they should section off the areas where the riots are occurring and let them fight it out. Let the community deal with the offenders.

I personally doubt there will be much going on. Hasn't his old gang turned on him anyway?



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 04:38 PM
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As Clarence Darrow said:

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."

This was the famous anti-death penalty Chicago lawyer who defended Leopold and Loeb, and who took part in the Monkey trials (evolution.)

I have to say I would agree with him. I personally would not wish the death penalty on someone who attacked me (even from the grave, I'd rather they have a looooong time to think and agonize over it though), but if you live by the sword...

If his sentence wasn't carried out, the sword would have found him regardless... I'm not qualified to judge, but God is, and he does.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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To say good riddance to bad rubbish comes to mind.
Gov. Schwartzeneggar did the right thing in not commuting this thugs sentence.



posted on Dec, 12 2005 @ 07:20 PM
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I have a question. MSNBC is now running ads that Rita Cosby will not only be there to report she is a witness to the execution. Is that normal? Are reporters invited to view the execution?

Just wondering as she will surely describe it in graphic detail what occurs.



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