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Does Stanley Tookie Williams deserve clemency??

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posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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No traffic violations sounds great to me! But really, if you are a cold blooded killer, all you need to do is make your case romantic to hollywood, and they try to use their get out of jail free cards on you. Tookie was not a scout troop leader who got mixed up, and charged with crimes he could never have committed. He started a gang, killed some people, and is directly responsible for many other people getting killed. What a waste of breath defending him, why not focus on something important for your energies hollywood???




posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by Goose

I based my question on pure logic and history. The evidence is not overwhelming it is pretty clear that the man did not receive a fair trial. If he did not receive a fair trial then how can anyone know for sure he is guilty? Most lawyers will tell you once you are convicted its pretty difficult to get another trial, so the 26 years of appeals are pretty much worthless, just a waste of time. Every once in a while somone gets lucky and gets a new trial but those are few and far between.


Goose, you're forgetting something. This is happening in California! Even Charles Manson (originally sentenced to Life Without Parole) now gets regular parole hearings, as do some 40 other "Lifers".

As I said, if Williams get Clemency, bet me, he'll be on the streets before he's Sixty.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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Not UNLESS he outs the present crips leaders and tell all about their present activities, otherwise what good is he??



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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I say no clemency. I don't care how many books against gangs he's written, he has yet to renounce his membership in the Crips. He has also refused to give gang information to authorities because he doesn't want to be a "snitch." He doesn't want to snitch on an gang responsible for nothing but crime and violence. Yeah, real reformed.

After reading some of the testimony and evidence here: da.co.la.ca.us... his cohorts Tony Sims and Alfred Coward, both say they were present at the 7-11 robbery. Both identify the Tooky as the killer. After reading the details about the case in the pdf, I believe he is guilty.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

So what, does this mean that we should do away with the death penalty, merely because it is imperfectly applied????


Well, yes. I'm not sure "merely" is the appropriate word. It's a little tough to correct, or mitigate, an imperfectly applied death sentence. Yes, there are heinous people out there that deserve to die. I just don't have a lot of faith in the system to justly sort out which ones those are. Life comes with a death sentence anyway. I've got no problem with the punishment being "life in prison with no possibility of parole".



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

So what, does this mean that we should do away with the death penalty, merely because it is imperfectly applied????


Well, yes. I'm not sure "merely" is the appropriate word. It's a little tough to correct, or mitigate, an imperfectly applied death sentence.

I've got no problem with the punishment being "life in prison with no possibility of parole".


Firstly
i'm in agreement that the larger 'Death-Penalty' should be suspended...


Secondly
There should not be Clemency given to him......

Unless Every Death Sentenced conviction is also suspended
or a blanket clemency is given Everyone on Death-Rows in Calif.

& then a Death penalty moritorium in all the 49 other States
until we can come up with another 'penalty' which serves Justice

right now the military is re-defining torture
right now Nationl Security is refining who & what are terror/terrorism

Perhaps life-termination is a defunct retribution penalty,
in need of debate as to how the guilty can repay society
& just what limit is 'in-humane' treatment
& when (if ever) is it proper for 'human rights' to become suspended?



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft


Hardly:



Don’t get me wrong, I'm not saying that I'm not in favor of punishment, the scripture clearly states judge as you shall be judged the same. Jesus was all about forgiveness and my remark was directed towards that. I fully understand the ramifications of having a lawless society and the downside of our justice system. I completely agree with your former post as I do most of your post.




[edit on 9-12-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Somebody kill this vermin please. He had his chance to behave and blew it. Nothing he has done while in prison redeems him. If he can raise the dead victims, then I might change my mind. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRIED AND HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY CRIME COMMITTED BY MEMBERS OF THE CRIPS GANG. If he had not founded the gang, imagine how much more peaceful the cities of the United States would be. What were the dicks thinking that wanted to give him a peace prize???


[edit on 12-9-2005 by groingrinder]



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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Has Arnold ruled on the clemency yet? I wonder if he will grant it to Williams, for political reasons. He lost a bunch of Republican fans, and gained Democratic ones, when he recently appointed a Dem for his Chief of Staff.

Re-election is right around the corner, you know...



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 04:52 PM
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This is a that should not even be discussed; he deserves no clemency whatsoever!

I've always found it interesting how some of these so called do gooder's [movie stars, prominent personalities, ect...Including the late Pope JHohn Paul II] can intervene on behalf of some of the lowest scum the country has justly convicted and sentenced for a horrible, heinous crime.

At the same time, David Koresch's [aka Vernon Howell] plea for Church leaders to intercede on their behalf while they were unjustly detained and brutalized and eventually horribly murdered at Waco on Monday, April 19, 1993, fell on deaf ears. There were 84 people inside, mostly elderly and pregnant women and 27 children.

That was nothing but a cheap stunt to capitalize on the "Holocaust". Remember, hours after their horrific murder, the holocaust museum was opened.

During that entire seige, Harrison road which links the Elk road to Highway 6 between Waco and Bryan/College Station, Texas remained open, ie with no roadblock whatsoever, so that those reallly tough brave "lawmen" who knew what really was going on could come and go freely. Usually to the all nude BYOB club which was[at that time] located just West (outside) of the roadblock at loop 324 and the Elk Road. Just southeast of the city of Waco, Texas.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by goose
The evidence is not overwhelming it is pretty clear that the man did not receive a fair trial. If he did not receive a fair trial then how can anyone know for sure he is guilty?


Maybe because he has admited to laughing at the gurgleing sounds of a person he killed


This guy is 100% guilty.

Even if he didn't pull the trigger himself (which he did), he was still the admited leader of a gang which has killed people.

As another person said:

Kill him...KILL HIM NOW!



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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Isn't he dead yet?

He should be, soon anyway, and thats the way it should be.

I don't care that every liberal whining Hollyweird star is crying, this killer was sentenced to death, and death it shall be!

- One Man Short ®

Mr. Beezer has this update from CNN



SACRAMENTO, California (CNN) -- With his execution scheduled for Tuesday, his attorneys have made their final appeals. Now, Crips co-founder and convicted murderer Stanley Tookie Williams must wait on death row to find out if Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger will spare his life.



www.cnn.com...



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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Hey as experienced astral projectors know.. By killing him you'll give him a richer and better life to experience anyway...



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 02:21 AM
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well the decison will be made this monday...since that is the time he is scheduled to be executed i believe.


how do you guys think arnold will rule? politically i think he will say he should be executed since most republicans are for the death penalty but then he was a celebrity so maybe he will be influenced by his fellow posh crowd? what do you guys think?

Kind Regards,
Digitalgrl



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 04:47 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Originally posted by goose
Over a hundred people have died and were innocent but that was not proven until after they were murdered by the state.


So what, does this mean that we should do away with the death penalty, merely because it is imperfectly applied????

What about speeding tickets? if I can find 100 people that were innocent, but who got tickets anyway, are you then prepared to do away with all traffic violation penalties?

Howabout library fines? If I can find 100 people who were unjustly fined, then can we do away with the punishment of library fines???

No human government does anything perfectly. And yet you are required that if the government cannot do capital punishment perfectly, it shouldn't do it at all.

It stands to reason that you must be an anarchist, since no human government will ever be perfect, and you don't want imperfect governments to hand out punishments/penalties.

.


I said based on the information available he deserves a new trial, death is final, a ticket or a fine can either be paid or challenged but the death penalty leaves no room for recovery if it is applied wrong. And yes I know we have an imperfect government and an imperfect legal system thats why one should leave safeguards in place to protect the INNOCENT because we recognize it is an imperfect system! Please roll that thought around for a moment, over 100 people have been murdered by the state for crimes they did not commit,, that means an innocent man or woman died and the real criminal went free to possibly move next door to you. But hey according to you that is just fine the system is not perfect.

And since so many of you are calling for his death, some of you actually sound like you would want to have a party afterwards, what does that make you? You think it is perfectly acceptable to kill innocent people because the system is not perfect and seem to rejoice in the death penalty, but hey you are good people right?



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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How certain are you that some of these "more than one hundred" were actually guilty? Is it possible that the same system that occasionally makes mistakes by persecuting the innocent might also make mistakes by SETTING THE GUILTY FREE?

I agree that it is horrible to see an innocent person lose his life; that's why I'm bothered by the FOUR people tookie seems to have killed.

I just don't believe that he's been railroaded.

My point was (and continues to be) this: The fact that we imperfectly apply a law is not sufficient reason to NEVER enforce the law.

If there are problems with the law's application, with the ADMINISTRATION of justice, then by all means, let's improve those facets of the process.

But if you are so afraid of making a mistake, I'm surprised that you ever post! I mean, gosh, you MIGHT make a mistake. And once the thread has moved to the next page, you'll be forever unable to alter or undo your mistakes. And by your logic, it would be better for you to do nothing, than to risk making a mistake.

It's just bizarre to me that you're so obsessed with justice for THIS ONE MAN. And yet you've never yet mentioned the concept of justice with respect to the FOUR DEAD BODIES that he rejoiced in.

Again, we see the liberal fascination with the criminal, while ignoring the victims.

So, who's the barbarian here? the people pleading for justice for the innocent, or the person seeking to preserve the life of the bandit who killed them?

Someone's an unfeeling brute all right.

.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

How certain are you that some of these "more than one hundred" were actually guilty? Is it possible that the same system that occasionally makes mistakes by persecuting the innocent might also make mistakes by SETTING THE GUILTY FREE?

I agree that it is horrible to see an innocent person lose his life; that's why I'm bothered by the FOUR people tookie seems to have killed.

I just don't believe that he's been railroaded.

My point was (and continues to be) this: The fact that we imperfectly apply a law is not sufficient reason to NEVER enforce the law.

If there are problems with the law's application, with the ADMINISTRATION of justice, then by all means, let's improve those facets of the process.

But if you are so afraid of making a mistake, I'm surprised that you ever post! I mean, gosh, you MIGHT make a mistake. And once the thread has moved to the next page, you'll be forever unable to alter or undo your mistakes. And by your logic, it would be better for you to do nothing, than to risk making a mistake.

It's just bizarre to me that you're so obsessed with justice for THIS ONE MAN. And yet you've never yet mentioned the concept of justice with respect to the FOUR DEAD BODIES that he rejoiced in.

Again, we see the liberal fascination with the criminal, while ignoring the victims.

So, who's the barbarian here? the people pleading for justice for the innocent, or the person seeking to preserve the life of the bandit who killed them?

Someone's an unfeeling brute all right.

.


As I said I am concerned that he get a fair trial from the first trial and if he did not do it then we should search for who did kill these people. You are so concerned with killing someone for those murders, what is wrong with making sure we got the right person? Will it make anything better to kill another person, another innocent person. If we did not give this man a fair and honest trial and he did not commit these murders then the person or persons who did actually kill these people is walking around free. How is that remembering the victims, how is that getting justice for them?

Sure this man was a not a wonderful person but that does not mean he committed these cirmes, from the evidence presented it sounds like someone did not receive a fair trial.

You compare my desire that we as a people expect our legal system to be fair and unbiased and take every safeguard to keep from killing an innocent person, someones life being taken away, to posting a thread and maybe being wrong. Do you not see that they can't even compare in one I make a mistake oops, and in the other someone dies as a result of a mistake.

You talk about fixing the system but yet fail to understand that means giving a man or woman a new trial if the evidence is clear they did not receive one. This makes it very clear the Tookie Williams did not receive a fair trial, excerpt from the wikipedia website

In addition, nearly 20 years after Williams' trial it was discovered that a Los Angeles police officer had left a copy of the police murder file involving his case in an informant’s cell for overnight study. The next day the murder file was picked up by that same officer, and the informant informed the police that Williams had volunteered a confession to him. In return for his court testimony , the informant – who himself was facing the death penalty for rape, murder and mutilation – was given a lesser sentence that allowed him the possibility of parole and freedom.

web.amnesty.org...

Since 1973, 122 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. There were six such cases in 2004 and three up to December 2005. Some prisoners had come close to execution after spending many years under sentence of death. Recurring features in their cases include prosecutorial or police misconduct; the use of unreliable witness testimony, physical evidence, or confessions; and inadequate defence representation. Other US prisoners have gone to their deaths despite serious doubts over their guilt.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by goose

You are so concerned with killing someone for those murders, what is wrong with making sure we got the right person?



That has already been done. By experts.

Now, you have eloquently expressed that you do not trust those experts. You have raised questions about the police, the prosecutors, and the jury. You make it clear that you think the police are corrupt, the prosecutors uncaring and the jury . . . well, the jury was of the wrong race to have been able to give this man justice.

Of course, you haven't told us you were actually at the trial. But you know because you've been told by voices you trust that an injustice has occured.

For my part I'm unimpressed.

I gather from your posts that you are opposed to any capital punishment. At any time. For any crime.


You've made your point. You don't trust the police, the government, the courts to ever be capable of meteing out a death sentence properly.

Is it fair to say that in your book, executing tookie is wrong, not because he is innocent; but because the system cannot be fair?

[edit on 10-12-2005 by dr_strangecraft]



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 04:55 PM
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no, I do not think he should be set free to harm other people.
He is a evil man .
He should at the least spend the rest of his life in prison.



posted on Dec, 10 2005 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Originally posted by goose

You are so concerned with killing someone for those murders, what is wrong with making sure we got the right person?



That has already been done. By experts.

Now, you have eloquently expressed that you do not trust those experts. You have raised questions about the police, the prosecutors, and the jury. You make it clear that you think the police are corrupt, the prosecutors uncaring and the jury . . . well, the jury was of the wrong race to have been able to give this man justice.

[edit on 10-12-2005 by dr_strangecraft]


The jury was the wrong race, not one black person on that jury. If I were on trial and there were 10 black people, 1 latino, 1 filipino, sitting on my jury I would hope their not racist but the odds would not be in my favor. I sure as heck would not want to stake my life on it. And with 10 white people, 1 latino and 1 filipino sitting on his jury the odds that none of them were racist were not in his favor. Racism is still alive and well in this country and it was also alive and well when he was on trial, probably even more so.

I don't make it clear I think the police were corrupt but history on this case does. When a file of the entire case is left in a prisoners cell overnight something is wrong, totally wrong, when that same prisoner later gives evidence of a jailhouse confession (and later gets his own sentence reduced because of it) of course he is going to have all the details and if he makes anything up well thats just added drama. History proves the police were corrupt, it is not just an opinion.

This man should at least have a fair trial before he is put to death, our entire justice system is based on that promise of a fair trial but yet you want to do nothing but say its imperfect and kill him. You recognize it is imperfect, but when presented with proof that the justice system did not fulfill their obligation to him to give him a fair trial, you still want to kill him. You talk about the victims and justice for the victims but if Tookie Williams did not commit those crimes then he becomes a victim himself and the killer or killers walks free. Is that justice?




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