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Does Stanley Tookie Williams deserve clemency??

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posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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It's interesting how some around the world consider the United States as the premier killer of it's inmates. The fact is, the death penalty thrives in Africa and the Mideast, and also in Asia.

Yes, as a nation, we're still savage to the point where we believe the death penalty will slow crime, convert the sinners, etc., etc.. which might well be the case with Williams. That is beside the point.

The death penalty is NOT about slowing crime. It's not about redeeming a soul. It's not about revenge for the dead. It's about JUSTICE. As long as Williams lives, there's a chance for him to get out, after which he most certianly WILL return to his old ways, but now with a free hand to run his gangs.

If one REALLY wants to stop gang violence, why not show the would-be gangsters what happens when you kill someone for $120.00? Williams KNEW how much money was in the register of that Stop-n-Go, and yet went ahead with the robbery, killing the clerk not to erase a witness, but because he hated whites.

If the tables were reversed, I'm pretty sure in this day and age that I, as a white man, would die for killing a black guy in what is obviously a hate crime, esecially if I joked about how the clerk wheezed to catch his dying breath, but couldn't because I had just blown his lungs out with a shotgun!

The punishment here is death for the subhuman actions and attitude leading to the death of the innocent. It's called JUSTICE!




posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
His death would do no one any good.


I disagree completely. Punishing the guilty is ALWAYS good for society. Giving special clemency because someone is a celebrity is ALWAYS BAD.


Originally posted by Rasobasi420
the victims will not be brought back to life, and the families lives will not change.


Your statement will be equally true if he gets life, so it doesn't affect the argument either way.


Originally posted by Rasobasi420
All that will happen is that we will have another grieving family . .


Yes. And while they are at it, his family ought to grieve that they raised a parasite and a killer; that they didn't teach him how to be a moral adult male. See my remarks about liberalism below.


Originally posted by Rasobasi420
. . . few less books for our children to read. He's not asking to be freed, by the way, only to live the rest of his life in prison. This way he can continue to try to help people. whether he believs in it or not, he's still helping people.


I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Liberalism always focuses on the perpetrators instead of the victims.

What does the number of childrens' books he's written have to do with anything???? Are we going to start granting clemency based on all the good things you've done or may do? Then you will end up favoring the rich, who have money to do more. That is even MORE UNFAIR than the system we already have.

But again, the shrieks of outrage only come when the guilty are about to die. When the innocent were slaughtered, there are never any liberals around to complain.

They will complain about the cops, about how society "forces" people to become gangstas. They will blame every institution (other than rap music). But they'll never blame the perpetrator.

Sickening. Mourn for the guilty, instead of the innocent, as the crime rate soars.

The reason we have a high crime rate is not due to desperation amongst the poor. America is one of the richest countries in the world.

We have high crime because we have low justice. And no retribution.

And even if they kill him, they'll try to be humane, and use a lot of dangerous chemicals or put him to sleep. Again, spending thousands on the guilty, while the families of the victims buried their own.

I say, go back to hanging. Gravity is a renewable resource.


.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by thermopolis
in the end.

Christians against the death penalty miss the teachings of the bible.



Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

(Luke 23:34)



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:19 PM
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yeah well he knew what he was doing.

the death penalty thing...i dont really care...i mean in the end people will get what is coming to them anyways..so i support the death penalty in some instances and not in others. as far as this case is concerned the man isnt sorry. everyone keeps talking about redemption and as far as i know that means that you apologize and admit wrong doing. he hasnt done that. in fact in his last defense he was citing brain damage. also, if he really felt what he did was wrong he wouldnt ask for his life to be saved. he would realise that he took lives and therefore should recieve some sort of punishment. now, whether it should be the death penalty or not, im not one to say, frankly im only 20 years old and wasnt of age to follow this case. one part of me says yes he should get the death penalty because this man isnt appearing to be sorry at all for what he has done, because he keeps playing the race card and the mental illness card time and time again, and because that is the punishment that was laid down by the courts. if the vicitms families came out and said "ya know what, we would be ok with him serving life in prison" then ya know, why kill him. i mean the victims families were the ones effected. but they arent saying that. they want the punishment that was JUSTIFIABLY laid down by the courts.

this is not a good case to use if you are not for the death penalty. its not like there is new DNA evidence coming out and the man is innocent of the crime. this man is guilty, not apologetic, and should not be set free. that is the bottom line. its one thing to give the man life in prison instead, but he has no right to be set free after killing what was it? 4 people...pleaaaassseeeee.

Kind Regards,
Digitalgrl



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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You have voted dr_strangecraft for the Way Above Top Secret award.


Well said, Herr Doktor.

DE



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:50 PM
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This thug does not deserve clemency, it's appaling some celebreties pushing for this. Why do some actors think they hold so much sway, I watched a bit of CNN with Jamie Fox asking for clemency and even go as far to say "PLease don't do this to me on my birthday". What about the 4 dead people who will never wake up to another day let alone their birthday. Maybe Mr.Cripps thinks he has redeemed himself, so what, that's what you're supposed to do in prison, if I was on death row you can bet I would be pulling all sorts of bull.... in order not to meet my own selfinduced end. Pull the switch let him fry.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 06:51 PM
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If it were up to me he would not die.

Instead, he would be tortured for the rest of his life, with medical supervision at all times to make sure he DIDN'T die.

Hopefully they could keep him alive another 10 years in the most hurrendous pain humans are capable of inflicting.

Since there is no chance of that hapening, I'd like to use the gas chamber.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by American Mad Man]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1

Originally posted by thermopolis
in the end.

Christians against the death penalty miss the teachings of the bible.



Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

(Luke 23:34)


Hardly:




He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justice,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?



Justice and Mercy are two sides to the same coin. Justice without mercy is villainy. But Mercy without justice is perfidy; since it is a betrayal of the government's duty to defend the victims.

Doing justice requires a balance of rigor and compassion.


True and complete forgiveness only comes from God. This is because only God sees in the heart. People and governments cannot read a criminal's mind--they'll never know if he's truly sorry, or is merely victimizing the society yet again:



The LORD does not see as a man sees. For man looks only at the outward appearance. But the LORD sees into the heart.
1 Samuel 16:7


Tookie has exhuasted all of his retrials, all of his appeals. He wants his sentence set aside because he is a celebrity. This is a slap in the face not only to every victim of violence, but also to other non-famous criminals who have earned the death penalty.

But again, most of Tookie's supporters are trying to overturn the death penalty; they really don't care about justice, or about making it safer to live in gang-infested neighborhoods.

One of the things I learned from my career in law inforcement was this definition of the criminal mind:

"A criminal is someone who mistakes mercy for weakness."

I composed that definition myself. And I stand by it. Other people I've worked with, including both Christian and non-Christian judges and attorneys have found this to be a useful definition.

I'll give you an example. When you pull someone over in a traffic stop, and then you waive the ticket, most drivers are grateful. Leaving the traffic stop, they are extra careful. Not because they think you can still see them, but simply out of a sense of gratitude and a desire to be a good driver.

But once in a while, you'll catch a guy leaving a traffic stop and he goes out and purposefully speeds and runs stoplights, to prove that he can "still get away with it" regardless of you. That is a telling example of a criminal outlook.

I, being a populist, trust a jury of 12 peers to be able to tell the difference between the two mentalities.

Now think of all the grand juries, voir dire juries, appellate courts, previous governors, etc., who have upheld his death penalty.

Maybe none of that alters your view of justice in his case. But it certainly does for me.


P.S. Just where does ANYONE get off telling me that I'm not a good Christian if I don't happen to subscribe to THEIR interpretation of scripture. And then, they talk about not judging others! I guess not judging only applies to everyone else, and never to oneself, right???




posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 10:07 PM
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I went to www.legal-explanations.com... and got the legal definition of Executive Clemency. Here ya go:


Executive Clemency
n. the power of a President in federal criminal cases, and the Governor in state convictions, to pardon a person convicted of a crime, commute the sentence (shorten it, often to time already served) or reduce it from death to another lesser sentence. There are many reasons for exercising this power, including real doubts about the guilt of the party, apparent excessive sentence, humanitarian reasons such as illness of an aged inmate, to clear the record of someone who has demonstrated rehabilitation or public service, or because the party is a political or personal friend of the Governor.


Now, by this definition, Tookie can go free! That's right, he can walk the streets a free man. Consider for a moment that this is exactly what he's supporters are really asking for. Notice that not one supporter is asking for a commutation to a "Lifer" sentence. They're asking for Clemency.

Consider that for a moment.

Give these guys an inch, and I guarentee Tookie will walk the streets within fifteen years.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 03:23 AM
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While I applaud "Tookie" for what he's done since he's been incarcerated in prison, his actions that got him there still deserve the Death Penatly.

Anyone here besides Me see the movie about him with Jamie Foxx?

It was a good movie, with a good message, but still...he killed several people & deserves to be punished for his crimes.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:01 AM
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What if he really is innocent? Did anyone bother read about at wikipedia. It does not sound like this man got a fair trial. Sure the crimes were terrible but what if he did not commit them? Over a hundred people have died and were innocent but that was not proven until after they were murdered by the state. Read the excerpt below and tell me you are convinced of his guilt. I'm not convinced I think he should received a new trial based on the fact that the first one was not fair.

And another thing not one black juror sit on that jury, I'm not trying to bring the race issue up but if you were white and on trial would you want 10 black people, 1 latino and 1 filipino, deciding your fate, I would not, I would not feel comfortable unless half the people on that jury had my skin color. Racism exists in this country, on both sides, and to try and deny it would be useless and to try a black man in front of a predominately white jury is wrong IMO.


en.wikipedia.org...
Williams is currently on death row in San Quentin State Prison awaiting the outcome of his request for clemency. His execution date has been set for December 13, 2005, barring a grant of clemency by California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Since the beginning of his sentence, Williams has maintained his innocence regarding the four murders, alleging prosecutorial misconduct, exclusion of exculpatory evidence, ineffective assistance of counsel, biased jury selection, and the misuse of jailhouse and government informants.[6] Williams claims that the police found "not a shred of tangible evidence, no fingerprints, no crime scenes of bloody boot prints. They didn't match my boots, nor eyewitnesses. Even the shotgun shells found conveniently at each crime scene didn't match the shotgun shells that I owned." A prosecution firearms expert, however, testified during trial that the shotgun shell recovered from the Yang murder crime scene was conclusively matched to Williams' gun. The Defense challenged this expert's methodology. [7]Wiliams' gun was found under the bed of two people – a husband and wife facing felony insurance fraud charges who were also under investigation for murdering their own crime partner. This husband-and-wife crime team did not serve any prison time and their murder investigation was dropped after they testified that Williams “volunteered” a confession to them. [8] The two shells recovered from the Owens crime scene were consistent with shells fired from this gun, with no exclusionary markings.[9] In addition, nearly 20 years after Williams' trial it was discovered that a Los Angeles police officer had left a copy of the police murder file involving his case in an informant’s cell for overnight study. The next day the murder file was picked up by that same officer, and the informant informed the police that Williams had volunteered a confession to him. In return for his court testimony , the informant – who himself was facing the death penalty for rape, murder and mutilation – was given a lesser sentence that allowed him the possibility of parole and freedom. [10] Critics point to the fact that although he has apologized for and renounced gangs and the founding of the Crips, Williams has not renounced his gang membership, and allegedly continues to associate with Crips members in prison. Opponents have also pointed out that he has received a significant amount of money from outside sources. [11]

During the trial, the prosecutor, Robert Martin, dismissed all prospective black jurors resulting in a jury without any African-Americans (there was one Latino; one Filipino; & ten Caucasians). In his closing argument, Martin described Williams as a "Bengal tiger in captivity in a zoo" and said the jury needed to imagine him in his natural "habitat" which was like "going into the back country, into the hinterlands." In two subsequent cases, Martin was rebuked by the California appeals courts for using race as a criterion in jury selection and had two murder convictions overturned on those grounds.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by goose
What if he really is innocent?


This peice of human vermin has had 26 years to prove his so called "innocence". The evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Kill him, kill him NOW...................

If you so called "Christians" out there believe in the power of Prayer to God then you must recognize the power of evil. If you believe in group prayer the the opposite also allpies.

How many thousands of pure evil humans exist in our prisons?

The death penalty should be a "swift" punishment..................less than 18 months of appeal then "off with their head".

26 years on death row does scare anyone. If he can get this sentence commuted he can get out of prison in a few years for "good time".

Kill him NOW....................



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by thermopolis
If you are a christian how can you be against the death penalty?

Simple. Because I read the bible and UNDERSTAND it for what it
is. You can select places in scripture to support your stand for
the death penalty. I can select places in scripture to support why
I am against it. We could get into a scripture spitting contest
which would go nowhere.


Christians against the death penalty miss the teachings of the bible.


Christians who are against the death penalty understand the
bible for what it is and also understand that we are better
educated and less barbaric then people were 5,000 years ago.
When someone does something evil, we can turn the other cheek
and lock them up instead of killing them. We can show mercy -
blessed are the mercyful for they shall receive mercy. etc. etc.

You CAN be a good christian, understand scripture, live scripture,
and still live in the modern world. Don't forget, MOST of the bible
depicts history and traditions of the people who lived at that time.
That doesn't mean we have to follow suit. Just because Christ
chose to let THOSE thieves die on the cross next to Him, doesn't
mean that he'd want ALL thieves to suffer the death penalty.

QUESTION - since you obviously don't make a move without it
reflecting exactly what the bible says .... when you go to church
do you make sure that all women have their heads covered? If
they don't, they are going to hell. Do you eat shellfish? If you
do, you are going to hell. Do you want a pre-teen female sex
slave? Moses says it's okay. He says you must slay all your
enemies but the men can keep virginal young girls as sex toys
to commit adultry with. See? These are local traditions and
customs that made their way into the bible ... that doesn't mean
they are things we have to live by or else we go to hell.

Also, next time you, or anyone else, say you are against
abortion because it's against what the bible says, then I have to say
that you have (to quote you) ... missed the teachings of the bible.

From the bible – Says chemical abortions by a priest are okay -

quote: Numbers 5:11 Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying: 12 Speak to the
Israelites and say to them: If any man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful
to him, 13 if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her
husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and
there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; 14 if
a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has
defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of
his wife, though she has not defiled herself; 15 then the man shall bring
his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one
-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no
frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of
remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance. 16 Then the priest shall
bring her near, and set her before Yahweh; 17 the priest shall take holy
water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor
of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the
woman before Yahweh, dishevel the woman's hair, and place in her hands
the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy.
In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings
the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, "If no
man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while
under your husband's authority, be immune to this water of bitterness
that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your
husband's authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than
your husband has had intercourse with you," 21 --let the priest make the
woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman--"Yahweh make
you an execration and an oath among your people, when Yaheh makes
your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that
brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your
uterus drop!" And the woman shall say, "Amen. Amen." 23 Then the priest
shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of
bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that
brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and
cause bitter pain. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy
out of the woman's hand, and shall elevate the grain offering before
Yahweh and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of
the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the
altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he
has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has
been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall
enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her
uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her
people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she
shall be immune and be able to conceive children. 29 This is the law in
cases of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband's authority, goes
astray and defiles herself, 30 or when a spirit of jealousy comes on a man
and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the woman before Yaheh,
and the priest shall apply this entire law to her. 31 The man shall be free
from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity

My PERSONAL feelings - we shouldn't be stopping anyones heart from
beating unless it's strictly in self defense. This goes for unborn children
and it goes for convicted criminals.

That being said - the law is the law. This fellow has only himself to
blame for where he is. As long as the law allows for the death penalty
then he shouldn't get special treatment just because he wrote a few
kids books while he was locked up waiting to die.



[edit on 12/9/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by thermopolis
miss the teachings of the bible.


Yes scripture is definately a place to look when people
want to be fair in their legal dealings.
Guess if
we don't want to 'miss the teachings of the bible' then
all men should get off scott free when ever they misbehave
but the wives should be subject to the full extent of the law?


Numbers 5:11 - or when a spirit of jealousy comes on
a man and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the
woman before Yaheh, and the priest shall apply this entire
law to her. 31 The man shall be free from iniquity, but the
woman shall bear her iniquity




[edit on 12/9/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 06:56 AM
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Originally posted by thermopolis

Originally posted by goose
What if he really is innocent?


This peice of human vermin has had 26 years to prove his so called "innocence". The evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Kill him, kill him NOW...................

If you so called "Christians" out there believe in the power of Prayer to God then you must recognize the power of evil. If you believe in group prayer the the opposite also allpies.



Wow you do assume a lot. I am not a christian! I don't evn go to church nor do I listen to the rhetoric put out by the rolex wearing tv preachers.

I based my question on pure logic and history. The evidence is not overwhelming it is pretty clear that the man did not receive a fair trial. If he did not receive a fair trial then how can anyone know for sure he is guilty? Most lawyers will tell you once you are convicted its pretty difficult to get another trial, so the 26 years of appeals are pretty much worthless, just a waste of time. Every once in a while somone gets lucky and gets a new trial but those are few and far between.

I'm not saying he is innocent but there is not that much evidence pointing to his guilt. One experts say the bullet came from his gun, another expert says no it did not come from his gun. No other physical evidence at the scenes. The prosecutor already has had two convictions overturned.

[edit on 9-12-2005 by goose]



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 07:02 AM
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Did not Christ say "nothing shall be taken from the law" and that he was here to fulfil prophesy not the "change it". Is he not returning to save a select few (very few) of mankind and kill the rest (twice). Does not the bible speak of 2/3's of the earth being killed off first.................

5000 years ago or now God has not changed and his son certianly didn't "over rule" him either.

Tookie committed murder his punishment is DEATH.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 08:01 AM
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thermopolis

I have stated that Tookie should not receive clemency.
He is a convicted murderer. The law is that he should
die for his crime. He put himself there. He can't blame
anyone but himself. I also said that Hollywierd calling
for their 'treasure' to be spared is a slap in the face
to the families of the victims.

I favor a change to the law. But at this time, we must
obey the law as it is.

Quoting 5,000 year old traditions and customs from the bible
doesn't change why I am against the death penalty.
We are supposed to be more civilized then the people of 5,000
years ago. At least I hope we are. I do not feel that we
have a right to stop anyone's heart from beating, unless
it is in self defense. That is my personal opinion. NO ONE's
heart. Not the unborn child (even though the bible clearly
says it's okay). Not the convicted felon. (except in case of self defense)

As far as your quote about Christ and the law ... I also
quoted biblical 'law'. So I guess if you are a TRUE
Christian and you read scripture, then you shouldn't be
against abortion. Afterall ... I gave the quote from
numbers ... it's just fine and even blessed by the
Church. If you are a true Christian and you read scripture,
then you should favor preteen virginal girls as adulterous
sex toys in conquests of infidels. If you are a true
Christian and you read scripture ... you will see that
CHRIST saved the woman found in the act of adultry
... he saved her from being stoned to death. And of
course we have the teaching from Christ about 'turning
the other cheek'.

I say 'you' .. not meaning YOU, but people in general.

As I said earlier, ya'll can find all sorts of bible quotes to back
up the death penalty. I can find just as many to say it should
not exhist.


[edit on 12/9/2005 by FlyersFan]

[edit on 12/9/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by thermopolis
Is he not returning to save a select few (very few) of mankind
and kill the rest (twice). Does not the bible speak of 2/3's of
the earth being killed off first.................


That's God's business, not ours. God gives life. God takes
it away. He is the author of life. He should be the one to
decide when it is time for life to end. These figures have
nothing to do with US and if WE should be allowed to
kill people when they could just as easily be locked away.

If there is ever a time when we can't lock people away for
our safety... such as in self defense, or if we are physically
incapable of locking them up, or things such as that ... then
we are justified in self defense to go through with a death
penalty. Otherwise, we are playing God.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 09:49 AM
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It's pretty fatuous to say, "if you call yourself X, then you must believe Y."


People have their own understanding of religion, and it's rediculous for another person to tell them what conclusions they ought to reach. Particularly when the authority doesn't share that religion.

He didn't have any black people on his jury--so what. Are you telling me that no other race is capable of deciding his case based upon reason?

I wouldn't flinch if I went in front of 12 blacks for justice (I'm white.). I try to conduct my life so that black people, white people, any people wont automatically think I'm an evil, hateful person.

Not one of those people on the jury thought he should live.

And yet, you think you are more qualified to hand down a verdict than any and all 12 of them are.

And you weren't even at the trial.


I stand by my earlier statements. People who feel he deserves clemency don't really care about justice, they care about defeating the death penalty.

.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by goose
Over a hundred people have died and were innocent but that was not proven until after they were murdered by the state.


So what, does this mean that we should do away with the death penalty, merely because it is imperfectly applied????

What about speeding tickets? if I can find 100 people that were innocent, but who got tickets anyway, are you then prepared to do away with all traffic violation penalties?

Howabout library fines? If I can find 100 people who were unjustly fined, then can we do away with the punishment of library fines???

No human government does anything perfectly. And yet you are required that if the government cannot do capital punishment perfectly, it shouldn't do it at all.

It stands to reason that you must be an anarchist, since no human government will ever be perfect, and you don't want imperfect governments to hand out punishments/penalties.

.



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