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Calling all Canadians; Please Debunk.

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posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:19 AM
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I beg anyone to please debunk the following website:
www.naturalperson.com...
Other than the initial disclaimer which must be posted for obvious legal reasons, I cannot argue with what is being presented on this site. I've purchased all the DVD's & instuctional books, Blacks law dictionary, the Canadian law dictionary, researched & compared what is posted versus official Canadian Gov't sites and have come to the conclusion this website is genuine. I've encountered indivduals actually practicing what is has been revealed on this website and getting away with it without any legal challenge by CCRA. This website is about more than just income tax, its evidence of a real life matrix and positive proof of "they".
I beg anyone to read this site (all of it please) and present a way to challenge what is being presented.
This applies to everyone, especially Canadians & Common wealth countries.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by BattleofBatoche]

[edit on 7-12-2005 by John bull 1]




posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:33 AM
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I tool the time to read the site. I would loved to meet the man, I garauntee he is a lazy dead-beat. I understabnd his frustrations, but if god gives you lemons, make lemonade. Don't die of thirst!



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I tool the time to read the site. I would loved to meet the man, I garauntee he is a lazy dead-beat. I understabnd his frustrations, but if god gives you lemons, make lemonade. Don't die of thirst!


I don't think you read the entire site cause its quite lengthy and you would have needed more time since the original post was only minutes earlier.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I tool the time to read the site. I would loved to meet the man, I garauntee he is a lazy dead-beat. I understabnd his frustrations, but if god gives you lemons, make lemonade. Don't die of thirst!


This is a bit.... okay no, WAY off topic... but I think if God gives you lemons.... ask for tequila and salt.....



Anywho I'm going to go ahead and read the site now and afterwards I'll edit this post to put what I think in it...



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 02:15 AM
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in canada these days there are more and more seminars organised to denounce exactly that, that our tax system is basically a fraud and that there is actually a little gimmick with the person name. exemple, John Smith is the living, flesh blood and bone person, and SMITH, JOHN is the corporation created at the moment of your birth. Therefore, you could stop paying all your bills that you receive by mail under the name SMITH, JOHN. same applies to the tax system. I know there is a formula that you can fill to be exempted to pay tax forever, but i dont know how to request it.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 03:01 AM
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I read the simple introduction overview. he american income tax has came and gone many times in our history. It is in place to help pay for our governement. Bottom line. If you canadians don't pay, you won't have a stable governement and it could get toppled and taken over by someone not afraid to force you to pay. It is better than saying, give me 30% or you can't live in this country. Make lemonade, I repeat.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 03:57 AM
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Once you read the site you will learn that 97% of income tax goes directly to an un payable debt toward the IMF (world bank), also that the gov't runs on additional seperate 198 other taxes, NOT income tax. Please read the whole site.
Other taxes like GST, PST, Fuel taxes both Provincial & Federal, import - export duties & tariffs, ETC, ETC. The books actually list all 198 taxes which logically would be more than enough to run the Canadian Gov't.
For example in 1996 the Gov't collected 4.3 billion in fuel tax but only spent 298 million on roads.
P.S. I'm working with engineers who make over 300 000 per year that are following the program and do not have to pay income tax. They have alot to lose if this was false. CCRA would take their investments, houses, boats, cars, trucks, Harley's, snow mobiles if they were involved in a scam. Then they would get thrown in jail for tax evasion.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by BattleofBatoche]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I understabnd his frustrations, but if god gives you lemons, make lemonade. Don't die of thirst!


The point is that it’s not any gods giving us the lemons, it’s a small group of power hungry elites who gives us lemons. Taxes are always supported by these elite because it insures that the wealth transfers back to them.

About opting out of the tax system, I’m highly skeptical. Here’s the official CCRA debunking page. (“natural” person is Myth #5)


[edit on 7/12/05 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 07:04 AM
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Aside from the legal issue over income tax, the website's content is excellent, thought-provoking reading. The authors state they've put 4 years of research and work into it and it shows - hardly evidence of someone who's lazy. Nice find, BattleofBathoche.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
Once you read the site you will learn that 97% of income tax goes directly to an un payable debt toward the IMF (world bank),

Tax systems simply don't work like this. The government collects a pot of tax from various sources and then distributes it to various departments (health, education, security etc) for spending. It doesn't somehow keep track of where each inidividual revenue stream is and use that for a particular use. There are exceptions to this such as National Insurance schemes, which may be ring fenced for health spending or social security (not any more in the UK where it just goes into the big pot)

I'm not sure why you think that Canada is paying a debt to the World Bank - it isn't. All countries have a national (public) debt which is comprised of loads of different elements, from bonds to borrowings on the national and international finance markets. The concept of a formal national debt was invented by the British in the late 17th century, mainly to finance wars with France. The idea being that when the country is spending it can build up a national debt, and when it is booming and the taxes are coming in it can pay some back, and so on. This is now the way all countries work.

Canada has actually been paying back it's national debt very steadily for a while now and it's debt as a % of GDP is below 40%, and is lower than the G7 average (try Italy's 120% out if you want to see a nasty national debt). This site is a bit out of date, but still shows this very clearly: www.fin.gc.ca...

Most economists think that Canada has one of the best balanced economies around.

If a country can no longer service it's debt (such as Russia in 1998 and Argentina in 2001 or loads of African countries in the 80s) it isn't allowed to go bankrupt like a company would do, so the World Bank would step in and take over the debt. I am not defending this, and the IMF/World Bank forcing these countries to pay back these unpayable debts that are many times the size of their GDP is disgusting and should be stopped at once. However Canada is in the opposite position in that it is a creditor country that has actually been letting some of the developing countries off their debts to them.



also that the gov't runs on additional seperate 198 other taxes, NOT income tax.

As I say, they run on the total pot of tax collected from lots of different places.



The books actually list all 198 taxes which logically would be more than enough to run the Canadian Gov't.

Why would it be "logically" enough? The number of different taxes are irrelevant, it is the amount they collect. Some of those taxes might only amount to a few hundred thousand dollars.



P.S. I'm working with engineers who make over 300 000 per year that are following the program and do not have to pay income tax. They have alot to lose if this was false. CCRA would take their investments, houses, boats, cars, trucks, Harley's, snow mobiles if they were involved in a scam. Then they would get thrown in jail for tax evasion.


You have also purchased the books, the DVDs, the T-shirt and the pencil holder from this site...so are you no longer paying income tax? I would love to see some actual evidence that this scheme works rather than just stories. Also if it does work how come every single tax advisor in Canada doesn't use it for their clients? Their sole aim in their work is to try and get round paying taxes.

I think the CCRA debunking conspiricynut linked too makes it very clear that you would not be able to simply stop paying tax as the site advocates. It seems a bit of a con to get you to purchase stuff from them.

EDIT: spelling

[edit on 7/12/05 by FatherLukeDuke]



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 12:48 PM
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It is true...

The reason for Income related taxation, was to pay for the War and no other reason. In fact, there was a tax placed on phones as well which was only ment to last while the War did...it is the same in the United Kingdom.

The problem is the Government would just place all the burden on business if we were not taxed. Go for it...fight it in Court and you'll see the option isn't much better, because without that money to pay people you have mass unemployment at a Government level - something you do not want to see and it will not help society one bit.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 06:45 PM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I understabnd his frustrations, but if god gives you lemons, make lemonade. Don't die of thirst!


The point is that it’s not any gods giving us the lemons, it’s a small group of power hungry elites who gives us lemons. Taxes are always supported by these elite because it insures that the wealth transfers back to them.

About opting out of the tax system, I’m highly skeptical. Here’s the official CCRA debunking page. (“natural” person is Myth #5)


[edit on 7/12/05 by ConspiracyNut23]


Actually if you read the site you would realize that the CCRA debunking site used "word smithing" to change the legal wording of what it calls a natural person and that the above natural person website debunks CCRA's debunking. Not to mention the guy is trying to get at the truth, in fact he is offering 20 ounzes of gold to anyone who can prove him wrong and there have been no takers.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 10:14 PM
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Could you please stop accusing everyone of not reading your site. (I have) It is saying nothing new and many of us have been expose to some kind of tax fraud program. I encountered one a few years ago pushed by a Maurice Gauvrau or something. And here's another one.

I understand what you are saying about the "word smithing" and this has been done in many instants by governments who find Constitutions embarassing or inconvenient. (for example granting corporations the same rights as individuals)

Whether the Canadian Supreme court has engage in word smithing are not is irrelevent, what it says goes! And your engineer friends are liable to loose their boat, houses, Harleys, etc. Also remember that you cannot take any law literately, rather you have to take it in the sprit in which it was written. And a THEY always decide in which spririt it was written.

I found the guy, is name is Murray Gauvreau. Looks like he's still at it.


[edit on 7/12/05 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 02:15 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Could you please stop accusing everyone of not reading your site. (I have) It is saying nothing new and many of us have been expose to some kind of tax fraud program. I encountered one a few years ago pushed by a Maurice Gauvrau or something. And here's another one.

I understand what you are saying about the "word smithing" and this has been done in many instants by governments who find Constitutions embarassing or inconvenient. (for example granting corporations the same rights as individuals)

Whether the Canadian Supreme court has engage in word smithing are not is irrelevent, what it says goes! And your engineer friends are liable to loose their boat, houses, Harleys, etc. Also remember that you cannot take any law literately, rather you have to take it in the sprit in which it was written. And a THEY always decide in which spririt it was written.

I found the guy, is name is Murray Gauvreau. Looks like he's still at it.


[edit on 7/12/05 by ConspiracyNut23]


Please realize I mean no disrespect BUT both DETAX Canada & the Anti-Constitutional Argument are covered on the natural person website, these two methods have actually been proven false and currently the de-taxers are being heavily persecuted by CCRA. How ever many detax points have been expanded on and investigated further. The paradigm site investigated why these methods failed, examined the mistakes, studied the court cases, got inside the mind of the judges and figured out what was actually going on.
To some it up: a natural person working in their own capacity under a contract for hire receiving compensation is NOT subject to the income tax act. Currently the majority of Canadians are working in the capacity of the office of "The Taxpayer" under a contract of service for renumeration thus all income is subject to the income tax act.
Remember not all tax payers pay income tax. ie a 10 year old kid who buys candy will be charged GST and/or PST thus making them a tax payer yet they do not file income tax.
Being a natural person is not a silver bullet. You have to break all joinders to the artificial person that is represented by your social insurance number, then you have to open up a natural person bank accounts, sell all your belongings to the natural person because technically everything you own belongs to the artificial entity you legally represent. Once you have transfered everything to the natural person and have broken all joinders then you can be free. Remember CCRA will be angry you beat them and audit you for the previous 7 years which could make your life living hell if you have any grey areas.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by BattleofBatoche]

[edit on 8-12-2005 by BattleofBatoche]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 04:49 AM
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Sorry, BattlefBatoche there was in fact 3 pages in the Advanced section that I didn’t realize were there (didn’t see the page 3 link).

The author does refute the CCRA site on
this page.

Can I ask BattleofBatoche are you considering doing this? Or are you planning on doing it? How do you know this guy's system will not get proven wrong like the others? And stupid question, but can you still use the hospitals and schools after you've opted out?

PS: For someone do turn you in they need your name and SIN, OR your name and birth date, so if you revealed any of this somewhere in relation to your handle (BattleofBatouche), don't answer this.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
Remember not all tax payers pay income tax. ie a 10 year old kid who buys candy will be charged GST and/or PST thus making them a tax payer yet they do not file income tax.

Well, yes. You have discovered the only sure fire way to avoid income tax - have no income.



You have to break all joinders to the artificial person that is represented by your social insurance number, then you have to open up a natural person bank accounts, sell all your belongings to the natural person because technically everything you own belongs to the artificial entity you legally represent. Once you have transfered everything to the natural person and have broken all joinders then you can be free. Remember CCRA will be angry you beat them and audit you for the previous 7 years which could make your life living hell if you have any grey areas.

I really wouldn't recommend this, as it seems like an enormous effort and you will either still end up paying income tax or being arrested (and puttting up with the audits)

Even if there were a loop hole in the tax laws, if people started taking advantage of it then they will simply change the law. Tax loop holes are closed all the time. Anyway if everyone stopped paying income tax at once Canada would not be able to operate as a viable country, despite the nonsense the site spouts about all of income tax going to the IMF. If you want to use the health service, the police, the fire service, education etc, etc then you should pay for them.

You haven't really addressed any of the points I made previously....

EDIT: Spelling

[edit on 8/12/05 by FatherLukeDuke]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 05:59 AM
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Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
you have to open up a natural person bank accounts,


I'd really be interested in knowing how to do this. I've tried one time to open a bank account without a SIN number, and they wouldn't do it. (assuming you mean openning an account in Canada) They need this info to check your credit report, and to declare any interest to Revenue Canada. (even if you want a interest-free account, they still insist.

I too would like to see the IMF point addressed in this thread. (note that the

IMF, World Bank and the BIS are seperate organization)

[edit on 8/12/05 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 11:18 AM
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There are some other threads on this subject, here's one:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Might provide some useful info.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
you have to open up a natural person bank accounts,


I'd really be interested in knowing how to do this. I've tried one time to open a bank account without a SIN number, and they wouldn't do it. (assuming you mean openning an account in Canada) They need this info to check your credit report, and to declare any interest to Revenue Canada. (even if you want a interest-free account, they still insist.

I too would like to see the IMF point addressed in this thread. (note that the

IMF, World Bank and the BIS are seperate organization)

[edit on 8/12/05 by ConspiracyNut23]



The Bank Act says:
Deposit Acceptance

Deposit acceptance
437. (1) A bank may, without the intervention of any other person,

(a) accept a deposit from any person whether or not the person is qualified by law to enter into contracts; and

(b) pay all or part of the principal of the deposit and all or part of the interest thereon to or to the order of that person.

Here is a link to the department of Justice website of Canada where you can look up any Act of Parliament.
laws.justice.gc.ca...
Enter Bank Act in search.
You will find a very lengthy rendition of a Bank's Powers.
Just so you know when you went into open an account at a Bank, the Bank assumes you want a retail deposit account in which the Bank can force you to show any I.D. it wants, how ever it cannot refuse a natural person opening a natural person deposit account. All you need is a signature card to open a natural deposit account. The problem is the Bank must honour it's contract with you, pay higher intrest, warn you & ask permission to charge you any fees, ask to lend your money etc, this gets very expensive on the Bank and thus cut's into it's record profits. The Bank doesn't want people going around asking for natrual person deposit accounts, therefore the burden is on you to bring sections of the Bank Act into your bank and show the bank manager who I can almost guarantee has never read the Bank Act & is only repeating what they are tolds by higher ups. If you threaten legal action the Bank will cave and give you a natural deposit account but it usually takes the individual having to raise a big stink or ruccuss.
However the natural person deposit account is a legally binding contract between you & the bank. NO ONE else can enter into your agreement, not even CCRA. Not a court judgement in divorce, alimony, bankruptcy, etc. If the bank gives away any money in a natural deposit account with out the natural person's permission the Bank can be sued.
Banks don't really like natural person deposit accounts.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 09:21 PM
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Buy FatherLuke ""I'm not sure why you think that Canada is paying a debt to the World Bank - it isn't. All countries have a national (public) debt which is comprised of loads of different elements, from bonds to borrowings on the national and international finance markets. The concept of a formal national debt was invented by the British in the late 17th century, mainly to finance wars with France. The idea being that when the country is spending it can build up a national debt, and when it is booming and the taxes are coming in it can pay some back, and so on. This is now the way all countries work.""

If Canada owes money to itself then why does it charge compound intrest on it's own debt. Canada is a member of the IMF. READ THE WEBSITE

FatherLuke " You have also purchased the books, the DVDs, the T-shirt and the pencil holder from this site...so are you no longer paying income tax? I would love to see some actual evidence that this scheme works rather than just stories. Also if it does work how come every single tax advisor in Canada doesn't use it for their clients? Their sole aim in their work is to try and get round paying taxes."

This is the work of many Canadians going to court and fighting CCRA, losing, studying law & old court cases, getting inside the mind of a judge, developing theories, then testing the theories and seeing which ones hold water. Some of these people have been fighting for 30 years, they finally have gotten the majority of the pieces of the puzzle and found something that is working. REMEMBER to buy everything on the site is less than 900 dollars Canadian (and you don't need everything) the website offers
20 ounces of gold if anyone can prove them wrong, 20 ounces at 520 dollars is well over 10 000 dollars. These guys just want the truth.

Father Luke" I think the CCRA debunking conspiricynut linked too makes it very clear that you would not be able to simply stop paying tax as the site advocates. It seems a bit of a con to get you to purchase stuff from them."

If you read the website you will see how they debunked CCRA's debunking cause CCRA took things out of context and used word smithing.

[edit on 8-12-2005 by BattleofBatoche]



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