Where would the world be without the US?

Originally posted by pepsi78
I do not agree with you simply cause in u'r idea freedom should be limited.
But i has a individual want to be free in this world do you understand?
It's like some one that comes to you and say hey you cant say that and you cant say that .
Of course no body will want that cant you understand that?
How are you going to get there if no body wants it?
Of corse with promise i promise you that and that and then stab them in them in the back stab freedom in the back and come out and say if you say that you will go to jail.
What you must understand is that people trejure freedom supreme freedom and will not go along unles they are tricked witch makes you a
person with a low self estim and a liar .
Cause if i dont want it and no one wants it than go live on the moon i would sugest and construct there u'r comunism with the few others that want it.
We dont want it, no one does it's only you, fidel castro and other liders that benefit from it.

Why in a comunist country people always tend to reach for freedom why is that ?and always flee the country runing over border risking their life?
Why is that because thei are so wonderful hapy?
Or is it because the leaders of the countrys they live in striped every little pice of their personality , cubans in raft boats almost drowning picked up by the coast guard runing away from cuba, north coreans makeing a run for it i saw a documentary on it hoping their families wont be killed and hold acountable after they flee country.
Revolted chines students protesting and things turning in to a blood bath.
And finaly east europe giving up counism and i am proud for that chosing freedom here i stand in east europe and i must tell you people paid in blood in this country for it's freedom people were masacerd on the streets to obtain freedom so people can be free it was horible it hapend almost 20 years ago but now we are a democratic state and i am proud to live and
have the privlage to be free i dont take it for granted and i trejure it, it was a gift and that's why i say people from the us should not take it for granted and to wake up cause one day it might not exist .
But here you come and i must insist that you just enoy me and and you muck the east europians witch fighted for their freedom and paid with their lifes.
Why dont you go seat with bush and drink a cup of cofee i think you too will get along greate.

Here is someone who truely understands freedom. Listen and learn youth of the world. You all have such short term memories and refuse to listen to sound advice and sage counsel. You heap unto yourselves likeminded rebels who feeding upon each others rhetoric, ultimately do nothing because you are couch potatoes and armchair quarterbacks. This is a person who has been there and done that. How many of us can say the same?

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
And why are we here arguing about the superioty of Democracy and Communism?

I am here because other people and I disagree with what zoso28 stated about US being protector of free world, blanket security on other free nations, other free nations exist because of US, etc

And i proved him wrong.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

The only thing you proved is that despite having a brain jam packed full of knowledge, you don't know a thing. I just do not think you get it. I also doubt alot of your claims such as living in a communist country. You said it does not matter where you are from and now i totally disagree. Obviously there is a communist country out there that is pretty good to live in since you did live there and still believe communism is a good system. Please enlighten us to this shining beacon of communism. The "blanket of security" the US provides is a deterent to aggresive nations who might want to attack free nations. The aggresors know that if they do that, more likely than not, the US is coming, bad news for the aggressors. Ask Saddam how that worked out for him in '91.

I'd also say the world would be enjoying an entertainment industry that wasn't chock full of pro-American propaganda.

Ask Europe and Australia how they like being swallowed up by "Hollywood" when it comes to telling 'their' stories with 'their' prespective.

Are you even aware of how much influence "popular media" has on core oppinions of people? Are you aware of how many "Hollywood" hits are others stories, retold with a Pro-America perspective that denies or muddies the expression of the original production?

A great deal of American productions are done in Australia. The price/pay off, of all this money they are spending here, is having "Buckley's Chance" of getting enough funding to competitively produce and promote our own stories that don't follow the "American Agenda".

This is nothing to do with America offering better "quality" products, quite the opposite, but it is America useing it's wealth and power to keep the truth, that few can be bothered to actively seek, from "leeking" into the consciousness of the general world population.

I thank God for Australia's SBS (free to air multi-cultural telivision) that gives us these other views from which to add to the formation of our oppinions. Like documentaries from other nations on the 'facts' of the "War on Terror".

Blanket of security from agressors? Ever thought about how US is an agressor itself in the Cold War? Vietnam War? And intervenention other nation's politics 1000 miles away which has no connection with Washington whatsoever.

Protector of free nations?

And what makes you think that France, Germany, UK and other "free nations" are inadequate of defending themselves with their own armies and needed American military bases located all around their borders to keep them combat capable?

US, stands for liberty, freedom, justice.

Right, i just posted historical facts on US exploiting labour in Latin America, massacre in Vietanm, killing demonstrators in Kent State University, racism against Blacks etc

You said US is the most charitable nation the world has ever seen. How about actually having statisitcs to prove it. Cos i have statistics to prove they are not.

While i still have knowledge of somekind to back up my claims, you have NONE.

Like I said, i proved you wrong.



[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

Doubt all you want about me having lived in Communist country.

But denying the truth or blind faith without attestation is just ignorance.

You said you also doubt a lot of my other claims, such as what?

[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

You continue to post and present more questions than answers. If you are going to make the statement that you lived in a communist country you are gonna have to tell us which one. You still havent told me where you live now. Why? What are you afraid of. If you make a claim like that you have got to back it up. Again, i have no doubt that you are an educated and intelligent person. This i do not dispute. But address the questions that have been presented to you instead of trying to deflect to other questions. You have got to back up your claims to retain any credibility.

I was not affraid of anything, but simply reluntant to give my personal information so easily away on the net. If you really want it so badly here it is.

I was born in Hong Kong, but moved to Hawaii immediately and studied for two years of kindergarden, then moved back to hong kong and took one year of primary school education. Then i moved to Hainan Island, China, had 4 years of education in a boarding school. Them immigrated to Canada, Toronto, North York for 5 years and later moved to Chicago for two years. Two years ago i moved back to Hong kong. And just like i told you it is currently a place where the ideologies of communism, capitalism and democracy clash.

Now i answered your question, it's time you answer mine. Prove to me how you were right of stating those claims about US.

The way i see it zoso, it is you that never back up YOUR claims with anything.

"US is the sole protector of freedom and democracy."

"US is a society and people based on liberty, justice and freedom."

"US is the most charitable nation the world has ever known."

I have already showed evidence to beat down those claims, how about you show us some facts and figures to back them up.



[edit on 16-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

I've seen plenty of arguments both ways on where the world would be without the good ole US of A.

most of the post deal with real world historical events, which i can understand.
The way I see it if America had never existed, ther world would be such a different place that practically none of the events of the last 250 odd years would have ever happened.

Worst case America would have Balkanized with several European countries owning parts of the continent, and using it's resources to build it's power back home in Europe.

Best case The British held onto the whole Continent, the Crown giving power to Lord George Wahington Earl of America.

European Politics would be so different, that napoloen would have acted different, so would every european leader to follow.

Thats politics out of the way, now we come to Technology

The American Cival War saw the single biggest advancment in weaponry since the first muskets took the place of the Crossbow.

Ironclads, Submarines, the Gattling gun, more accurate pistols and rifles and a change in the type of warfare too. No longer did soldiers line up in pretty lines and march towards each other.

Flight.. if America never was, the Wright brothers would never have made their flight, we would have developed flight, but not as fast, and as the world wars may very well never have happened, we might not even have developed Jet Technology even today.

The mind boggles at what could have been, when you remove just one country from the globe. and I'm just touching the tip of the iceburg when you think of all the advances made since 1786 or whenever the American revolution happened.

Peace..

Rock Ape

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier

As for people fleeing from East Germany to West Germany, who would blame thm? They were tempted by the glamorous capitialism, risked their life getting there but realized they can't find any jobs.

You say tempted?
But why tempted when you say comunism is so grate?
Why even try to clime the wall to the other side when they would be happy
in your opinion.
Yes it is tempted i agree but by freedom
1 germany is 1 of the most healthy economys germans always had what they wanted and they allways worked hard and always had what they need it .
Germany recoverd after the war very fast and is one of the prosper nations
when it comes to people and "give it all you got".
The problem was with the other part of germany, where they had no rights no nothing.

You know nothing about europe EarthUnificationFrontier "0" nada
Do you recal soviet lider stalin and what he did under comunism?
Stalin is placed along hittler in the race for humanity crimes.

Hungary, romania , bulgaria, rusia states witch gave up comunism but not any how but whith a strugle with milions and milions of people on the street pushing it away and of course with a blood bath and a masacre that no one will forget.
I will search and get you and show you how comunism started, it started out of hate and killings you has being from hong do not know the history
of it cause it didint start there.
People that protested agaist it and political figures were hangd or shoot
so comunism can start, they took power by force eliminating all oposition
by killing the political liders of the oposition.

Has for democracy has a sistem it has it's flaws but at least we are free.
I do got a very strong opinion that in the us democracy is not what it represented once.
No united states is not a blanket of security for us but the opinions
are shared and there are other opinions.

We earned our freedom by our selfs and no one helped us we did it
on our own just like usa did it for them selfs"the independence war"
And nations who fight in such wars"independence wars" like united states
has the duty too keep it that way to ensure freedmom does not go away.

I think the bigest problem now on earth is north corea and i guess no body is ofering a blanket of security for the people that live under the harsh comunism there exposed to nialistical ways.


You see EarthUnificationFrontier take north corea for example where comunism is real strong ,they are not alow to were other cloth on the street only white short black pants if you were something else you get arested.
It's like haveing little robots runing around.
Plus if you want to go to another city in the country you have to ask for permision so you cant even travel inside the country.
Ohhh no tecnology if they catch you with some fancy stuff like a celll fone
or something like that i think you get executed.
There is u'r comunism.









[edit on 16-12-2005 by pepsi78]

[edit on 16-12-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by suzy ryan
I'd also say the world would be enjoying an entertainment industry that wasn't chock full of pro-American propaganda.

Ask Europe and Australia how they like being swallowed up by "Hollywood" when it comes to telling 'their' stories with 'their' prespective.

Are you even aware of how much influence "popular media" has on core oppinions of people? Are you aware of how many "Hollywood" hits are others stories, retold with a Pro-America perspective that denies or muddies the expression of the original production?

A great deal of American productions are done in Australia. The price/pay off, of all this money they are spending here, is having "Buckley's Chance" of getting enough funding to competitively produce and promote our own stories that don't follow the "American Agenda".

This is nothing to do with America offering better "quality" products, quite the opposite, but it is America useing it's wealth and power to keep the truth, that few can be bothered to actively seek, from "leeking" into the consciousness of the general world population.

I thank God for Australia's SBS (free to air multi-cultural telivision) that gives us these other views from which to add to the formation of our oppinions. Like documentaries from other nations on the 'facts' of the "War on Terror".

Can you give us some examples? Most of what I see in the media (entertainment industry branch) is a bunch of pulp mindless time wasting stuff that could only be constued as gee wiz. Not ground breaking and changing the course of history to fashion it after "American" values.

East German moved to West Germany not necessarily because it is better. They were the people driven by greed, unsatisfied with having the identical commodities and equal standard of living as everyone else. They wanted more, desired more, and it all comes down to greed.

And as for the rest of your post, honestly i can't even comprehend what you just typed. Please do some spell check and correct your grammar before posting. Punctuations and capital letters help too.

Looking forward to your proof-read post.

[edit on 16-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

well we might just get the real answer to this topic soon enough if it goes down the road its going now

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
The way i see it zoso, it is you that never back up YOUR claims with anything.

"US is the sole protector of freedom and democracy."

"US is a society and people based on liberty, justice and freedom."

"US is the most charitable nation the world has ever known."

I have already showed evidence to beat down those claims, how about you show us some facts and figures to back them up.



[edit on 16-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

I said the US is nearly the sole protector. The other two statements are just that, statements. There is no other nation who collectively contributes more aid to people in need. I do not agree that your evidence proved me wrong. All your evidence focused only on negatives, which i believe are outweighed by the positives. As for the rest thanks for coming clean on your locales. I think you and i could sit down and have a beer and engage in some good convo. I will just agree to disagree with you on this one.

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
Blanket of security from agressors? Ever thought about how US is an agressor itself in the Cold War? Vietnam War? And intervenention other nation's politics 1000 miles away which has no connection with Washington whatsoever.

Protector of free nations?

And what makes you think that France, Germany, UK and other "free nations" are inadequate of defending themselves with their own armies and needed American military bases located all around their borders to keep them combat capable?

US, stands for liberty, freedom, justice.

Right, i just posted historical facts on US exploiting labour in Latin America, massacre in Vietanm, killing demonstrators in Kent State University, racism against Blacks etc

You said US is the most charitable nation the world has ever seen. How about actually having statisitcs to prove it. Cos i have statistics to prove they are not.

While i still have knowledge of somekind to back up my claims, you have NONE.

Like I said, i proved you wrong.



[edit on 15-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

fficial Development Assistance (ODA) from 2001 to 2004 ODA in U.S. Dollars (Millions) ODA as GNP Percentage
Country 2001 02 03 04
1. Australia 852 962 1,237 1,465
2. Austria 457 475 503 691
3. Belgium 866 1,061 1,887 1,452
4. Canada 1,572 2,013 2,209 2,537
5. Denmark 1,599 1,632 1,747 2,025
6. Finland 389 466 556 655
7. France 4,293 5,182 7,337 8,475
8. Germany 4,879 5,359 6,694 7,497
9. Greece 194 295 356 464
10. Ireland 285 397 510 586
11. Italy 1,493 2,313 2,393 2,484
12. Japan 9,678 9,220 8,911 8,859
13. Luxembourg 142 143 189 241
14. Netherlands 3,155 3,377 4,059 4,235
15. New Zealand 111 124 169 210
16. Norway 1,346 1,746 2,043 2,200
17. Portugal 267 282 298 1,028
18. Spain 1,748 1,608 2,030 2,547
19. Sweden 1,576 1,754 2,100 2,704
20. Switzerland 908 933 1,297 1,379
21. United Kingdom 4,659 4,749 6,166 7,836
22. United States 10,884 12,900 15,791 18,999

Source: OECD Web site

www.globalissues.org...

Kind of says it all concerning aid to others. This also does not take into account all the other charities.

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier

And as for the rest of your post, honestly i can't even comprehend what you just typed. Please do some spell check and correct your grammar before posting. Punctuations and capital letters help too.

Looking forward to your proof-read post.

[edit on 16-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

That's what most people write when they dont got an answer
get the history book yunkg song or yung yong or what ever is u'r name.

Speaking with out historical facts or who shouts and screams the loudest
would be your dream in a debate.

Get over it comunism is finished, terminated and it will never come back.
It's people like you who wish to control others not for the good of the people for the good of the sistem, who cares who is happy has long as
the sistem works right?
Ohhhh how happy i am look they are doing what i want ohhh my
i think i am so happy no one dare atempt to ruin my hapines.
The fact is that this kind of people get their plejure out of others sufering.
I dont care about the sistem i care for" INDIVIDUALISM"and being a idividual and a uniqe figure, only being uniqe you can evolve in a society.
Where nothing is new cause of corse there are no other opinions"that is called comunism" there is no evolution, evolution comes where every one comes with opinions and new ideas has a idividual , u'r idea only represents dictating others what to do"no idividualism".


[edit on 16-12-2005 by pepsi78]

Where would the world be without the US?

Whatever else you might bring up, it's fairly certain that 70% of the Iraqi people would not have been voting this week.

Zoso28:

I said:Your country is probably the least educated country in the developed world.

You said: I doubt this. Would like to see some actual proof

(working on it)

I said:Your country has one of the widest gaps between rich and poor.

You said:Being or getting rich is not a crime. Entrepreneurship is a big part of the american way.

The problem is that the rich get the perks and the poor get screwed. How many millions of people in the USA are one illness away from total bankruptcy?

I said:Your country still puts to death the mentally handicapped and minors.

You said:We put to death people who murder other people. Murder is a crime. So i guess its ok for the murdering minors to stay at your house?

No, but how can you execute a child who is 16 or a mentally retarded person who does not necessarily have the capacity for complicated thought processes? They cannot be responsible enough to drive a car yet they can be responsible enough to be executed for a crime? Whaaa?

I said:Your country has a larger percentage of its population BEHIND BARS than any other country including communist China and Russia.

You said:Again, these people are in jail because they commited a crime, not because they said the wrong thing.

Is it because the US has more draconian laws than most Western countries or are Americans just more violent and ignore laws?

I said:Your country is the largest polluter in the world (soon to be overtaken by China, so congrats).

You said: By-product of being heavily industrial. This means we make thing and sell them for profit. Evil, just evil .

No, it means you willfully poison the planet, knowing full well that mine and your children will be the ones who suffer. And their children, and their children after them.

I said:Your country is responsible for overthrowing far more countries than it has helped, and it is responsible for slaughtering far more civilians
than it has saved.

You said:Would like to see your list here. Can't respond properly until i do

I’ll give you two you’ve overthrown and you give me two you’ve “democratisized”.

Iran in 1953 (overthrew a publicly elected leader). Chile in 1971 (overthrew a publicly elected leader).

I said:Your country is probably one of the most hated in the world, mostly because of your stupid cowboy President, but also because people can't
BELIEVE that you RE-ELECTED your stupid cowboy President.

You said:Now we get to the root of it all. Just another Bush hater who bases his opinion of an entire country on his dislike of its leader

I am saying your country is hated because it’s most public face, Bush, is specifically hated. He is the PR guy for your country, and people don’t like him at all. He goes to your ALLIES countries and he is protested against. What does that tell you?

I said

Am I implying manyAmericans are racist? Why, yes, yes I am.)

You said:Totally presumptuous on your part. Racism affect everyone, everywhere

Okay, sorry, but if you’re white in America, you have a very different perspective on racism than if you’re black, Mexican or Asian.

I said:So there's my reality. If yours' is that the USA is the best thing to ever happen to the world, then that's good for you. But don't ever
expect to mention that to 98% of the rest of the world without them falling over laughing.

You said: I am not trying to say the US is the best thing to ever happen to the world. This is really just a counter to the US bashing that seems so prevalent on this site. 98%? Thats alot

I would say, yes, 98%. It may be high but I stand by it. Um, okay, maybe 90%. 

I said:BUT let me qualify this. I have met thousands of Americans over the years and I can honestly say that I liked and respected 99% of them. You cannot blame individuals for the actions of their government.

You said: Yet you do because of your hatred for Bush

? I blame the ACTIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT, and their figurehead is George W Bush.



EarthUnification:

Freedom is generally good for the people, but there needs to be a limit and restriction on how "free" people can be.

The very dangerous part of that is : Who gets to decide how “free” people will be?

Ambient:

Whatever else you might bring up, it's fairly certain that 70% of the Iraqi people would not have been voting this week.

Ask 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians if they’d rather be alive or if they’d rather be voting.



jako


[edit on 16-12-2005 by Jakomo]

Aid and "charity" stats. really shouldn't come into it without breaking it down to % of GNP and removing what trade with America "costs" those poor nations to begin with.

Also "charity" that earns "tax breaks" and works as propaganda isn't charity at all but a cunningly wielded, "social weapon".

Sorry but the U.S. can't "buy" guilt free status with money that returns it more than is spent.

Seriously, go read the rest of the post, 9 of the 10 words have spelling mistakes in it and there's not capital letters, puncations. All sentences are run on and you don't know where one idea starts and another ends.

Please it's not too much trouble copying your text, pasting it in words and do a spell check. At least then more people can understand it.

The numbers don't mean much. If you look at the the percentage of GNP US contributed into giving of aids, it's the lowest out of the developed world.

US: 0.15% out of its total GNP
Canada: 0.44%
UK: 0.31%
Germany: 0.41%
France: 0.46%
Australia: 0.38%
Japan: 0.32%

It is the same metaphor as, if Bill Gates and a guy earning 100 dollars a month both give 50 dollars to charity, who is more generous?

Rock Ape you also missed a very important point.

If USA never existed, the 1929 Wall Street Crash would have never happened, which means Hitler rise to power in Germany would never be accomplished.

Without the Nazis in rule it is obvious WWII would not have started, same as Halocaust. As a link to events without the Halocaust zionists would not have moved to Middle East, causing the current Palestinians vs Israelis problem (US further intensified the conflict by giving arms to Israel, causing unbalance of poewr in the region).

Cold War with USSR would never have occured, no Vietnam War, no Korea War, no Gulf War etc.

Of course Hitler rise to power cannot be blamed on the US directly, but ultimately it contributed pat of it subconsiously.






[edit on 16-12-2005 by EarthUnificationFrontier]