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Why not treat captured terrorists the way they treat their captives?

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posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey

I just wanted to point out that the 'liberal media' are not the only ones who have defined sleep deprivation as torture. The US State Department does as well.

Sleep deprivation may not be the worst thing that can happen to you but according to US State Department reports, it is considered torture.


thank god, somebody worth debating.

first of all, i want to thank you for having the courtesy to come in with many different references.

now, in regards to your post:

yes, the state department has included sleep deprivation in its list of tortures. but did you notice that each time they include it in the same phrase as "food deprivation?" that leads one to believe that sleep deprivation in and of itself in not necessarily included. semantics, i know, but still an important point.

regardless of what the state department says, i think my argument still stands true. if we use it in training our men and women in preparation for war, how is it that its considered torture when applied to interrogation of prisoners? that is quite obviously a double standard.




posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by snafu7700
regardless of what the state department says, i think my argument still stands true. if we use it in training our men and women in preparation for war, how is it that its considered torture when applied to interrogation of prisoners? that is quite obviously a double standard.


No double standard imo. You are applying this to non-military people. Maybe the training given to military personel is to help them to NOT give any important intel.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 06:18 PM
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But Intrepid, are not most of the detainees supposedly enemy combatants? If that were the case and they did go through the taliban / al-queda training, as per the training video that was all over the news back 3 + years ago.
If these are combatants and they went thru the training as per the video, then the sleep deprevation as well as the standing for hors on end would have fit in well with the training that these people went thru.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by kenshiro2012
But Intrepid, are not most of the detainees supposedly enemy combatants? If that were the case and they did go through the taliban / al-queda training, as per the training video that was all over the news back 3 + years ago.
If these are combatants and they went thru the training as per the video, then the sleep deprevation as well as the standing for hors on end would have fit in well with the training that these people went thru.


Only if you believe what you are told.
Are you saying that ANY(OR ALL) terrorist organization(S) has the funds, the facillities and the know how to even come close to adopting a program close to what the Seals et al go through? I don't think so. New acronym IDTS.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 06:37 PM
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glad you caught the joke

I was trying to point out that these detainees are supposedly combatants and thus trained. This is as per our media and the us / uk goverments.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 09:03 PM
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“Iraq war was illegal” Words spoken by the Sec Gen of UN so is BBC wrong? Or maybe it’s the liberal media. If the media was liberal like you say then we would see a lot more about global warming and pollution of the earth. But we don’t, we hear about money all the time.

newsmine.org...


About 140,000 people were killed by the A bomb and its aftermath in Japan. In a millisecond over a hundred thousand peoples live were lost and still to this day they suffer from cancers and mutations. Good way to end the war!!! Lets permanatly stunt their biological gene pool (Is this worse than a beheading? I think so!!) In fact they were and are talking about using nuclear weapons again! And you are worried about kidnappings.
And again I ask…
Were their children there? Were there women there? Well how about this were their innocents there?

news.bbc.co.uk...


Private security in Iraq with no safety net
No accountability from private forces. This is democracy and freedom letting people who are not bound to good conduct to secure important area. LOL that is funny. I know some of you have been on a job where a temp has been working not the same as a permanent worker is it. Not the same dedication.

news.bbc.co.uk...

New torture cases from U.S. soldier. It seems we cannot keep our hands off these people. We want to live the fantasy of the vengeful killings like in the movies we look at everyday.

hrw.org...


Cases of good treatment by the U.S. forces reported by the Red Cross and the conditions set by U.S. forces to even get this amount of information...
www.informationclearinghouse.info...

Census data on wealth, sex. And race in 2000
www.census.gov...

I say all this to prove that if we say we have morals we should live by them. To thumb your nose at the world and spend all your money is not a good situation and does not save us from danger. Most start on page four and not page one. There is a reason why people are mad at the U.S. and it is not because of jealousy or that there evil. We are dealing with past economic and political blowback. We know this because the people that we are chasing had or have deep ties with America.

Most liberals and conservative will have to learn that miltiary force will not rule the world and besides that if you are so called intelligent. The use of above board negotiations will get you farther than force or the threat of force. (Might is not always right)

If someone came to America tonight and took over while taking over bomb residential buildings, let the museums get looted and burned the libraries. Then told me the way I have been living (even if it is not the best way) is now over and I need to abide by new rules or be killed then I would go and fight in the street to get my country back. I hope you would also because if you don’t you are helping the enemy destroy our” way of life”.

And again if we have morals the world would not be saying things like that are. This includes western powers. We invaded a sovereign country; we took people from many many countries as enemy combatants. We did not tell their loved ones or their countries. We did not give them a trial we did not understand their culture. We do not look at them as human beings. When you give someone nothing to live for they tend to fight back like they have nothing to lose. We see a lot of that in Iraq. America has bigger guns why are they not an afraid of us but afraid of a guy who was beaten within 1 week of open combat?

BTW for those who offer no solutions and tow the conservative line thinking you got it figured out you might want to read what is going on outside the bubble of western thinking. Being rude and crude does not get you points here. Maybe on the fox network but not here. Your post have no facts and still have not posted any just a lot of hot air.

Like in the movie Brazil
“Have you seen any terrorist? Then what are you worried about?”
Most of you people wouldn’t know what a terrorist is; let alone the idea of a having a level head about people from other cultures.



posted on Jan, 5 2006 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by snafu7700
first of all, i want to thank you for having the courtesy to come in with many different references.

You're most welcome. I try to make a point of always being able to provide a source to back up my claims. And thank you for the compliment.


Originally posted by snafu7700
but did you notice that each time they include it in the same phrase as "food deprivation?" that leads one to believe that sleep deprivation in and of itself in not necessarily included. semantics, i know, but still an important point.

Two of them include that combination but the other one, Jordan, makes no mention of food deprivation. To me, this means that both the combination of the two and sleep deprivation on its own are included. Semantics, I know, but as you said....



Originally posted by snafu7700
regardless of what the state department says, i think my argument still stands true. if we use it in training our men and women in preparation for war, how is it that its considered torture when applied to interrogation of prisoners? that is quite obviously a double standard.

I think one of the big differences between the two is that US soldiers are undergoing this voluntarily, to make them better soldiers. The prisoners are having it done for the express purpose of breaking them.

I wouldn't trust any information that came from sleep deprivation either. Sleep deprivation can cause hallucinations and memory impairment.



Sleep appears necessary for our nervous systems to work properly. Too little sleep leaves us drowsy and unable to concentrate the next day. It also leads to impaired memory and physical performance and reduced ability to carry out math calculations. If sleep deprivation continues, hallucinations and mood swings may develop. Some experts believe sleep gives neurons used while we are awake a chance to shut down and repair themselves. Without sleep, neurons may become so depleted in energy or so polluted with byproducts of normal cellular activities that they begin to malfunction. Sleep also may give the brain a chance to exercise important neuronal connections that might otherwise deteriorate from lack of activity.

www.ninds.nih.gov...

If I were looking for information, I would not want it to come from a hallucinating, PMS-y source who suffers from memory problems. That might just be me though.




Edited because I bolded the wrong sentence.


[edit on 5-1-2006 by Duzey]



posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey

Two of them include that combination but the other one, Jordan, makes no mention of food deprivation. To me, this means that both the combination of the two and sleep deprivation on its own are included. Semantics, I know, but as you said....


ok, i'll concede the point there as you've proven your case, but as intrepid noted above, we arent talking about military members, we are talking about civilians who pick up arms, and therefore they dont really qualify under the GC.



I think one of the big differences between the two is that US soldiers are undergoing this voluntarily, to make them better soldiers. The prisoners are having it done for the express purpose of breaking them.


yes, but they volunteered themselves to fight. we do this to our soldiers to help them prepare for the possibility of capture and facing interrogation. anyone who picks up a weapon has to know that they face the possibility of capture and, therefore, interrogation.



I wouldn't trust any information that came from sleep deprivation either. Sleep deprivation can cause hallucinations and memory impairment.


yes, it has its faults, but i think it is a much better method than outright torture. people who are put through painful torture such as electrocution and dismemberment are proven to say whatever they think will make the pain stop. sleep deprivation has the curious side effect of causing individuals to say things that they wouldnt normally divulge. you do, as you mentioned, get erroneus data as well at times, but it is a much better method.....and much more accepted.



If I were looking for information, I would not want it to come from a hallucinating, PMS-y source who suffers from memory problems. That might just be me though.


then what would you suggest? say you were in charge of interrogation, and you knew that information you managed to get from them would save american lives, both in the war zone and back home. you cant use uglier methods, but sleep deprivation and standing for hours is allowed. what would you do to get the information?



posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
“Iraq war was illegal” Words spoken by the Sec Gen of UN so is BBC wrong? Or maybe it’s the liberal media. If the media was liberal like you say then we would see a lot more about global warming and pollution of the earth. But we don’t, we hear about money all the time.



from your source:



At issue are three recent actions by Mr. Annan. In September, he suggested in a BBC interview that the war in Iraq was "illegal."


a suggestion in an interview is not the same as "illegal." how about showing me where the UN has actually called the war illegal. you cant, because they havent.

furthermore, you intentionally misquoted the source in your opening remarks, which is illegal, and against the rules of this website. try to be careful you dont get yourself banned.



About 140,000 people were killed by the A bomb and its aftermath in Japan. In a millisecond over a hundred thousand peoples live were lost and still to this day they suffer from cancers and mutations. Good way to end the war!!! Lets permanatly stunt their biological gene pool (Is this worse than a beheading? I think so!!) In fact they were and are talking about using nuclear weapons again! And you are worried about kidnappings.
And again I ask…
Were their children there? Were there women there? Well how about this were their innocents there?



already covered to ad nauseum. your source does not offer any new details to what i have already written on the matter. if you are too ignorant to get the point, so be it.



Private security in Iraq with no safety net
No accountability from private forces. This is democracy and freedom letting people who are not bound to good conduct to secure important area. LOL that is funny. I know some of you have been on a job where a temp has been working not the same as a permanent worker is it. Not the same dedication.


and completely different from your previous argument of attrocities by these guys.

again, from your source:




However, Mr Falkner from Hart said: "The idea of a bunch of cowboys running around the country shooting people is a myth."

Both GLOBAL and Hart say they abide by the 'rules of engagement,' which outline when force can be used, and both are keen for further regulation.

They must have authority to carry weapons but are not allowed to be heavily armed, and are currently going through a licensing process led by the Coalition Provisional Authority to license all private security companies by 30 June.


your article is from 2004, which means that the licensing has already happened.

where exactly are the attrocities you were claiming from these guys? try again.



New torture cases from U.S. soldier. It seems we cannot keep our hands off these people. We want to live the fantasy of the vengeful killings like in the movies we look at everyday.


lets see, if you figure 100,000 detained overall (rough estimate), and so far about 10 verified cases of abuse by american soldiers, thats .0001% of those detained. yup, we've got a real problem there.

as i have mentioned before, a few bad apples does not make a policy. try again.



Cases of good treatment by the U.S. forces reported by the Red Cross and the conditions set by U.S. forces to even get this amount of information...


having read your source, i have counted the word "allegation" used about 150 times. not one single instance of proof. furthermore, this document is two years old. it seems like the icrc would have found their proof by now, if these accusations were real. try again.



Census data on wealth, sex. And race in 2000
www.census.gov...


this is quoted, and then nothing from you mentioning it. so i will have to assume that it goes back to our previous conversation, and respond this way:

i did not have any of those "white wealth" benifits your racist comments from the previous posts are referring to. i joined the navy, worked my butt off for four years, got training and worked towards a degree in my off time using benifits the navy offers everyone, and made a better life for myself and my family. please explain how this is proof of your "white wealth" theories.



Like in the movie Brazil
“Have you seen any terrorist? Then what are you worried about?”
Most of you people wouldn’t know what a terrorist is; let alone the idea of a having a level head about people from other cultures.


and you do? from what experience? i've done my duty for god and country, and have the scars to prove it. you make alot of assumptions for someone so obviously misinformed of the facts. so why dont you pull your fingers out of your ears and wake up? actually, on second thought, leave them in...life is much easier with blinders on.



posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by snafu7700
ok, i'll concede the point there as you've proven your case, but as intrepid noted above, we arent talking about military members, we are talking about civilians who pick up arms, and therefore they dont really qualify under the GC.

You won't hear me mentioning the Geneva Convention in regards to this topic. I am fully aware that the US is of the view that these are unlawful combatants. Arguing over that will not get us anywhere. I can make my case without it.

Torture is still torture, no matter who it gets used on.


Originally posted by snafu7700
yes, but they volunteered themselves to fight. we do this to our soldiers to help them prepare for the possibility of capture and facing interrogation. anyone who picks up a weapon has to know that they face the possibility of capture and, therefore, interrogation.

Of course they know that. But there is a thin line between torture and interrogation. A properly trained interrogator can get results without resorting to torture. Police forces all over the world use interrogation as a tool.



sleep deprivation has the curious side effect of causing individuals to say things that they wouldnt normally divulge. you do, as you mentioned, get erroneus data as well at times, but it is a much better method.....and much more accepted.

If we are working on a sliding scale, yes, sleep deprivation is probably at the lower end. But it is still torture.



then what would you suggest? say you were in charge of interrogation, and you knew that information you managed to get from them would save american lives, both in the war zone and back home. you cant use uglier methods, but sleep deprivation and standing for hours is allowed. what would you do to get the information?

I will start with the obvious answer. I would not put myself in that position. I simply do not have the stomach to inflict agony on another.

I realize that this is probably not a good enough answer, so I will play the 'what if' game.

If I were in charge of interrogations I would use the Reid Technique. Law enforcement agencies across the globe use this and it falls well within my moral guidelines. Like any other interrogation technique, there is a possibility of false confessions. Some countries still view this as unacceptable because it seeks to break the subject psychologically. If I had to interrogate someone, this is the only method I know of that I would be comfortable using. I think this method could be adapted for use in military applications.



The Reid Technique of interrogation relies on two important underlying psychological principles. The first is that it is much easier for a person to tell the truth if that person is allowed to couple his admission with some moral justification. Consequently, we teach that an investigator should suggest possible moral justifications which allow the suspect to save-face when telling the truth. Second, it is psychologically wrong to expect a suspect to suddenly break down and tell the complete truth about his crime. It is often necessary to allow the suspect to initially make a first admission of guilt and then attempt to develop the full confession. In the Reid Technique the first admission of guilt is elicited by asking an alternative question.

An alternative question offers the suspect two choices concerning some aspect of his crime, accepting either choice results in the first admission of guilt. Examples of an alternative question include, "Did you plan this thing out for months in advance, or did it just happen on the spur of the moment?" or, "Did you steal that money to buy drugs and booze, or was it used to help out your family?" As these examples illustrate, the choices presented in an alternative question generally contrast an undesirable characteristic of the crime to one that is desirable. Because the incriminating implication of either choice is very transparent it would be appropriate to ask, "Why doesn’t the suspect simply reject both choices and deny involvement in the crime?" Indeed, some guilty suspects do. But for many guilty suspects an alternative question offers an impetus or incentive to tell the truth.

www.il-iaai.com...


Additional links:
www.reid.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
criminaljustice.jbpub.com...



posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey

If we are working on a sliding scale, yes, sleep deprivation is probably at the lower end. But it is still torture.


i guess we are just going to have agree to disagree, because i refuse to concede that these techniques are perfectly okay when used on our own forces to prepare them for war, but are torture when re-applied to interrogation.



I will start with the obvious answer. I would not put myself in that position. I simply do not have the stomach to inflict agony on another.


neither do i, but i dont have any problem taking a terrorist and using sensory deprivation to cause him to give information that will save lives.




If I were in charge of interrogations I would use the Reid Technique. Law enforcement agencies across the globe use this and it falls well within my moral guidelines. Like any other interrogation technique, there is a possibility of false confessions. Some countries still view this as unacceptable because it seeks to break the subject psychologically. If I had to interrogate someone, this is the only method I know of that I would be comfortable using. I think this method could be adapted for use in military applications.



this is very interesting information that i was not aware of, and interesting reading. however, i disagree that it could be adapted to military use. this method seems to require a sense of guilt on the part of the interviewee, and as these terrorists have been brainwashed into believing that what they are doing is right, i dont think this method will work in convincing them to give us information needed to save lives.

edited for typos

[edit on 6-1-2006 by snafu7700]



posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 03:35 PM
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And you might want to watch yourself about your conduct grumpy old man does not play too well most places. You do have to give respect even though you did not give me any.

I have quoted what was right and still once again. I guess you follow the party line. The mantra of today’s government it is “trust me” I guess if GW bush says Iran is building weapons. Then we should believe him. Because he has the resources around him to make a statement as such. Kofi A. is the Sec Gen of the UN. He has the resources to say it was illegal. He gets briefs from over 190 countries in the world and show me where the world voted to invade Iraq not just to punish them in a UN resolution. I believe him more than the doctrine of preemptive strike. You better hope another major country decides not to do the same to the US. You might have to fight again. As well as all of us would.

The white wealth is described by things such as approval for loans, approval for mortgages for homes. Where race is put into when and where you can get these items. The way you feel about terrorist is the way I feel about racism. I have more of a chance to be affected by racism than by any terrorist.

Did you see where they said where the Red Cross was not able to get to the main prisoners because the US banned them from doing so. YOU have a problem with Allegations? We let allegations get us into Iraq; allegations got us to the policies of kidnapping and imprisoning people without charge. Allegations about Iran’s nuclear ambitions. You supported allegation dealing with the Iraq war why not now? It figures...

Also in the article dealing with the private contractors when asked the question are their any punishments for mistakes? They said no. No safety net and I know no one is perfect so those mistakes cost lives. Iraqi lives

I said something about the A bomb first so if you cannot get the point your the one at loss not me. Stay closed and play with sheepish ideals that do not test outside America if fits you well.


You are not a good teacher not do you deemed balanced in you ideals. Semitics seems to rule the day were you are and I will not play that game. You god and your country lynched and killed people that looked like me. I know much has not changes over the years dealing with those situations. I live here too I have served my country too and I know what’s under the rug here in America ... you know the things you do not want to talk about.



posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by snafu7700
i guess we are just going to have agree to disagree, because i refuse to concede that these techniques are perfectly okay when used on our own forces to prepare them for war, but are torture when re-applied to interrogation.

I don't really expect to change anyone's mind.


So in light of the fact that I know you won't agree with me, I've come up with a little compromise for us. You can agree that sleep deprivation is torture whenever it is used. In turn, I will agree that yes, it is a double standard to apply this to terrorists and not to US soldiers in training. Both the soldiers and the prisoners are being tortured.



Originally posted by snafu7700
however, i disagree that it could be adapted to military use. this method seems to require a sense of guilt on the part of the interviewee, and as these terrorists have been brainwashed into believing that what they are doing is right, i dont think this method will work in convincing them to give us information needed to save lives.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree.

I don't think it requires guilt so much as it requires a person needing to morally justify their actions. Different examples of the moral justifications that could be applied in this case could be Iraq, Jihad, American involvement of any kind in the Middle East and support of Israel. These seem to be the reasons most commonly used.


edited for spelling


[edit on 6-1-2006 by Duzey]



posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by BlackThought
And you might want to watch yourself about your conduct grumpy old man does not play too well most places. You do have to give respect even though you did not give me any.


lmao...do you really not realize exactly how confrontational and idiotic your posts have been? i think you do, and judging from the location on your avatar (amerikkka), i'd say your just too racist to give a damn. i've given you a helluva lot more respect than you have shown me, or than you deserve for that matter.



I have quoted what was right and still once again. I guess you follow the party line.


no, you have taken sources that you obviously havent read thoroughly and intentionally misquoted them, which as i have mentioned before, is both illegal and against the rules of this website. furthermore, you have shown that when you cant come up with a valid argument, you attack people's integrity instead (ie racist remarks). you are the epitome of everything this website was founded to counteract.



The mantra of today’s government it is “trust me” I guess if GW bush says Iran is building weapons. Then we should believe him. Because he has the resources around him to make a statement as such.


everyone had the same data and made the same conclusions, it's just that the democrats refuse to admit this fact because it's bad for business (ie the next set of elections).



TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR
October 9, 2002
It would be naive to the point of grave danger not to believe that, left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein will provoke, misjudge, or stumble into a future, more dangerous confrontation with the civilized world. He has as much as promised it. He has already created a stunning track record of miscalculation. He miscalculated an 8-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's responses to it. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending Scuds into Israel. He miscalculated his own military might. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his plight. He miscalculated in attempting an assassination of a former President of the United States. And he is miscalculating now America's judgments about his miscalculations.

All those miscalculations are compounded by the rest of history. A brutal, oppressive dictator, guilty of personally murdering and condoning murder and torture, grotesque violence against women, execution of political opponents, a war criminal who used chemical weapons against another nation and, of course, as we know, against his own people, the Kurds. He has diverted funds from the Oil-for-Food program, intended by the international community to go to his own people. He has supported and harbored terrorist groups, particularly radical Palestinian groups such as Abu Nidal, and he has given money to families of suicide murderers in Israel.

I mention these not because they are a cause to go to war in and of themselves, as the President previously suggested, but because they tell a lot about the threat of the weapons of mass destruction and the nature of this man. We should not go to war because these things are in his past, but we should be prepared to go to war because of what they tell us about the future. It is the total of all of these acts that provided the foundation for the world's determination in 1991 at the end of the gulf war that Saddam Hussein must: unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless underinternational supervision of his chemical and biological weapons and ballistic missile delivery systems... [and] unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear weapon-usable material. (full text from a pro-kerry site)


emphasis added by me.



Kofi A. is the Sec Gen of the UN. He has the resources to say it was illegal.


that's the second time you've said that. are you going to provide a valid source for that comment this time, or just misquote some source to fit your lies, like you did last time?



He gets briefs from over 190 countries in the world and show me where the world voted to invade Iraq not just to punish them in a UN resolution.


believe it or not, i disagree with why we went into iraq in the first place, and i was against the war from the onset. no, there wasnt a resolution to invade iraq. everything about how we found the justification to go in is shady. however, now that we are there, having served in the military, and having friends who experienced somalia first hand, i can tell you we have to finish what we started or it will become ten times worse. we leave now, not only does iraq turn into another taliban type afganistan, we lose any credibility we might have with the terrorists as to our resolve. we quit in beirut, we quit in somalia, and they think we'll quit here as well. we cannot afford to prove them right. the future of our nation and the free world depend upon it.



I believe him more than the doctrine of preemptive strike.


so you believe a man who violated (allegedly, i'll admit) UN resolutions in order to help make his son a rich man, over protecting our own country. why am i not surprised.



You better hope another major country decides not to do the same to the US. You might have to fight again. As well as all of us would.


i'm prepared, but it wont be another major country. it will be the terrorists. and dont kid yourself, because its not a matter of if it will happen, but when it will happen. how extensively is greatly determined by our ability to keep them occupied overseas as much as possible.



The white wealth is described by things such as approval for loans, approval for mortgages for homes. Where race is put into when and where you can get these items. The way you feel about terrorist is the way I feel about racism. I have more of a chance to be affected by racism than by any terrorist.


no, you have more of a chance of dishing racism out on others, as you have already shown yourself capable of. black americans have more benifits out there than any other race in america except the american indians. as i have already mentioned, you are first in line for college, for home and business loans, for federal employment, for financial assistance, and many, many other things. i have many black friends who have used these tools to there advantage in order to pick themselves up out of the poverty level and make better lives for themselves and there families. i only wish i had the kinds of opportunities you do. if you need a life change for the better, i suggest you quit bitching and blaming white people for you misfortune, and take advantage of some of these programs to better your own life and that of your family.



Also in the article dealing with the private contractors when asked the question are their any punishments for mistakes? They said no. No safety net and I know no one is perfect so those mistakes cost lives.


and as i pointed out, that article was two years old. things have changed, and i'm not doing any more leg work to prove that to you. find out for yourself.



I said something about the A bomb first so if you cannot get the point your the one at loss not me. Stay closed and play with sheepish ideals that do not test outside America if fits you well.


and i posted the numbers and sources that proved your argument to be flawed. youre just too damned ignorant to admit your wrong, which is fine. like i said, ignorance is bliss.



You are not a good teacher not do you deemed balanced in you ideals.


and you can barely speak the english language. are you not embarrassed by how badly you express yourself? i have to read everything you say two or three times to understand it. my god, man, get some education. even if its online english courses. use some of those benifits i was talking about so that you are able to express yourself in a meaningful manner. please.



Semitics seems to rule the day were you are and I will not play that game.


i'm going to assume you meant semantics, because semitics means of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic.



You god and your country lynched and killed people that looked like me.


and your racism comes out in force once again. i'll have you know i had family on both sides of the civil war spilling blood to make black americans free. i also got my butt kicked in high school for saying in front of the whole class that i thought reverand king was a great man, and i've been ridiculed on this board by white racists for saying the exact same thing. placing every white person in the country under the same flag for the attrocities done to blacks by radical racist SOBs is just as racist as the idiots who partook of the lynchings. IOW, comments like that make you no better than the grand dragon of the kkk....just of a different skin tone.



I know much has not changes over the years dealing with those situations. I live here too I have served my country too and I know what’s under the rug here in America ... you know the things you do not want to talk about.


then instead of bitching about it, why arent you out there trying to change it? i know why, because you would rather blame someone else for whats wrong in your life than to actually get a spine, stand up, and do something about it. to put it simply, you are an ignorant coward, and i've had enough of you. say whatever you'd like about me, because i'm going to take the high road and no longer respond to your ignorance, as you obviously have no desire to participate in a meaningful discussion, but would rather spread your lies and racism. i hope you get a clue someday and realize how much people like you are contributing to the downfall of this nation.

good day.

[edit on 6-1-2006 by snafu7700]



posted on Jan, 6 2006 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
I don't really expect to change anyone's mind.


neither do i, but its always good to participate in friendly debate and exchange ideas, whether we manage to find common ground or not.




So in light of the fact that I know you won't agree with me, I've come up with a little compromise for us. You can agree that sleep deprivation is torture whenever it is used. In turn, I will agree that yes, it is a double standard to apply this to terrorists and not to US soldiers in training. Both the soldiers and the prisoners are being tortured.


or you can agree that sleep deprivation is not torture, and i will agree that there might be better methods of extracting information from prisoners.



posted on Jan, 7 2006 @ 01:33 AM
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I might go so far as to agree that sleep deprivation alone is not torture, it is the act of using it against someone to break them psychologically that transforms it into torture.

But that's kind of where I started. Agree to disagree it is.



posted on Jan, 7 2006 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey

But that's kind of where I started. Agree to disagree it is.




fair enough....



posted on Jan, 7 2006 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by heelstone
The USA already tortures and kills suspects. Its just not broadcast to the rest of the world.


I agree. Playing Eminem music is considered torture. Getting interrogated by a woman is torture. Sleep deprevation is torture. Desecrating a Koran that we gave them is torture.

It is in Al-Queda's playbook that when held prisoner to "claim" torture. So you are falling for the propaganda. Typical of the blame America 1st crowd.




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