Invading Israel

iqonx,

remeber watching a video on BBC news that showed an israeli soldier tying a palestinian kid to te bonnet of his jeep to use as a human sheild the video and story wa son the net

Yes that did happen not too long ago and it caused a stir in Israel and the army changed its policy. But to put things in proportion the kid was tied to a jeep in an area were Israeli and Palestinians were protesting against the building of the fence. THey were throwing stones at soldiers. Israel was not targetting children.

Israel also shoots children with snipers and that is also fact only the blind will not see it.

These stories are lies. They were released by reporters for scoops and it turned out to be lies or taken out of context. Examples for this are Palestinian children are used as human shield by Palestinian gunmen., Palestinian lies to blame Israel for false attrocities, more lies, some more lies and the one I particulalry love about the false claim that Israeli soldier shoot and kill children with silencers on their weapons.. I can go on and on with this so lets focus on you giving me an incident and me debunking it - OK.
Regarding Islam I am not claiming that the whole worlds problems are because of Islam. I do disagree with you that the Pakistan Indian conflict is currently based on a religious context. I am not taking sides though. I am for Chechnian independence but the Islamic tactis are apphaling (the Beslan school seige, the theater in Moscow or the appartment complex bombings). Muslims, by purpose and by strategy target civilian, non-combatant targets - this is unacceptable regardless of the circumstances.
REgarding the UN partition plan and the UN's WHITE makeup. This is not so accurate at the time the following nations were in the UN: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Belarus, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, South Africa, Ukraine, USSR, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela, Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen, Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia and Thailand. As you can see there is a substantial 'brown', presence at the time.
I know what is bothering you though. The Arabs did not have substantial political clout at the time. That to you is unacceptable.
You also miss the point with the land ownership maps that you provide. you say

please take a look and you would realise jews are not a majority in any region of what is know known as israel,westbank or gaza and this was only done in 1945 which is just 2 years before israel was created

THe land ownership maps say nothing of the population and its majority. Compare the Arab/Jewish demographics at the time with the UN partition plan and you will see that the UN tried to create a Jewish homeland on lands which was mostly Jewish. Had the Arabs accepted it and not attacked Israel's borders would have been at those borders:


They couldn't accept a Jewish country on a land that was mostly Jewish they needed to rule over the Jews. Arabs like arabs though needed to show their strength and therefore attacked and lost. This was the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem.
Regarding land ownership - Under Ottoman rule Jews were highly restricted from purchasing lands. The map you presented, if true, talked about districts which could be cut in various ways to show Arab land ownership majority. If you would like I can do mopre research on the matter.

[edit on 15/3/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

[edit on 15/3/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

Judah

Using children as shields for jeeps is straight out of the SS tactic handbook for any army to consider that reasonable - even for a moment - is detestable and brutal.

You can't deny the Israeli troops shoot children - I've seen it on TV.

Unfortunately it's often justified with claims that a child was going to throw a bomb 60 mtrs / cught in crossfire etc etc so you 'had no choice'.

Due to Isreal's magnificent news management effort and fondness for hurling charges of anti-semitism at anyone who questions your lebensraum policy Isreal's excesses are rarely seen for the illegal brutal acts of oppresssion they actually are.

Of course the Palestinians do awful things too but you can't operate at their level and still claim the respect and rights due to a law-abiding sovereign nation. For example Isreal could actually adhere to UN resolutions instead of trotting out all the old, tired excuses, prosecute soldiers who shoot children, actually instigate investigations into soldiers who execute peace campaigners rather than being shamed into doing so etc etc.

If you behaved decently and lawfully you would get more respect from the west.

Interesting that you keep using the UN plan map - comparison with the modern borders demonstrates that the lebensraum policy is alive and continuing on a daily basis.

Strangerous,
We will become buddies soon, I'm sure!

Using children as shields for jeeps is straight out of the SS tactic handbook for any army to consider that reasonable

No the SS would just open fire on the protesters and then kill off the whole camp (See Bialistok).

Interesting that you keep using the UN plan map - comparison with the modern borders demonstrates that the lebensraum policy is alive and continuing on a daily basis.

Look at the map again. Without considering the size of it, does it look like borders that can be defended? Since 1967 Israel has actually decrease the size of its country by over 66% so there goes your other arguement out the window.
Nice attempt to use Nazi analogies but once again in an unsuccessful way. I know it is meant to enfuriate but I won't let it affect our friendship. Wanna go out for a beer?

You can't deny the Israeli troops shoot children - I've seen it on TV.

Show me an example of one. Any link would do. Don't show me a gruesome link of a child with a bullet throught the head that could have been done by anyone but an actual soldier shooting a child by purpose with no reason.

Of course the Palestinians do awful things too but you can't operate at their level and still claim the respect and rights due to a law-abiding sovereign nation. For example Isreal could actually adhere to UN resolutions instead of trotting out all the old, tired excuses, prosecute soldiers who shoot children, actually instigate investigations into soldiers who execute peace campaigners rather than being shamed into doing so etc etc.

If you behaved decently and lawfully you would get more respect from the west.

Palestinian do awful thing and Israel would have to make an effort to reach their level. Israel still did not bomb a school bus knowing full well that it was an innocent school bus with children. That is exclusively an Islamic tactic. Sovereign nations need to exercise laws and abide by agreements. THe Palestinian do neither on a continual basis. OSLO requires the Palestinians to fight terrorism, avoid incitement on state-run media, extradite terrorists to Israel among other things. Palestinians most of the time violated these agreements. THeir terror campaign that began circa 2000 effectively forfeited their immunity from Israeli military might. ANY COUNTRY attacked by suicide bombers, missle attacks and daily shooting on residential areas would not be as restrainful as Israel. So Israel is WAY above most countries and not only above Palestinians.
Israel persecutes soldiers who act unlawfully. This includes soldiers being arrested for beatings, mistreatment and killing. This is also true for Israeli civilians.
Palestinians on the other side do not do the same.

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist

Originally posted by Classified Info
Israel has been invaded before. That tiny little country is sourounded by fanatics that have stated over and over again their desire to drive them into the ocean. They need a strong defense if they are going to survive as a country. I can't fault them for this.

I was also against the Gulf War I back 15 years ago.

Is that a defense for violating UN Resolutions? Is that a defense for obtaining WMDs and there delivery systems?

You're defending resolutions that have been significantly racist and destructive to Israeli Security; meanwhile the sanctions against Iraq were for invading other nations and killing millions.

Judah

I'd love to meet up for a beer, sure we'd get along fine as long as we avoided certain subjects.

On shooting children I watched on Spanish TV as Isreali soldiers repeatedly shot the lad and his father sheltering behind the concrete block. I don't have a link but I have the memories. I also saw the footage where the IDF shot the British cameraman.

As I said the palestinian suicide bombings are very difficult to justify and I'm not going to try. I do think you're operating at their level (for example firing on ambulances with tanks) and if you do then you, too, are a terrorist state.
If that's the case then fine but don't expect anymore respect or favours than you accord Palestine. If it wasn't for the protective hand of the US I think you'd be required to alter your behaviour or be suffering the consequences

On the borders you know Isreal has only ever got bigger (recent contractions aside). I see it as military-backed expansion stealing other peoples' land.

The nazi analogies are reinforcing the point made by a jewish scolar (forget the name) who said the saddest thing about the death camp killing of the jews in WW2 was not that millions died but that the country born out of that tragedy have become the new nazis - his words not mine. that to me is the saddest thing about the whole sorry situation.

Strangerous,
Ahh, the Mohamed Dura incident in Gaza. Truely a tragedy a father and his son caught in a crossfire between Palestinian gunmen and an Israel outpost. It will probably shock you to know that
much controversy exists on the issue and it is most likely that either Dura was not killed by Israelis or that the incident was staged. (note the source).
Regarding the ambulance, again it is a tragedy that civil service vehicles are used for military purposes. In essence this occurs on both sides. Israel was also blamed for using medical helicopters to transfer soldiers with Israel saying that the helicopter is best armored among the Israeli transport helicopters and it was anyhow going in that direction to pick up wounded so it dropped off soldiers as well. That story was told by an Israeli soldier. WIth that said it is commonplace for Palestinians to use Ambulances to move militants, carry ammunitions and bombs for suicide attacks and to 'steal' IDF soldier bodies. There is There is even a video available of an Armed Palestinian boarding a UN Ambulance.. In order to fight fair you need two sides. The Palestinians can't expect to use ambulances to transfer arms, explosives and fighters into Israeli territoru and then not have the IDF check ambulances tat checkpoint. You can't expect Israel not to fire at an ambulance from which gunmen fire.

Do you see my point?

Judah your facts about Israel helping African nations is weak and lame, every heavily involved UN nation that has a say throws their misicule spare change at issues like that, but of course Israel is a great nation the following justifies why of course their so good and holy:

1.Controlling 98 percent of arable land in the GAZA STRIP, this was supposed to be Palastinian land but of course you guys can do whatever you want your chosen by GOD, No wonder they blow themselves up they have nothing to live for.

2.As well as giving aid to African countries Israel is also one of the major suppliers of WEAPONS to African nations, wow they really do care!!

3.Israel sells weapons to communist governments such as China behind the backs of their most trusted allies which aid and support them, wow Israel must really be trustworthy and holy dont you guys agree?

4.In the USA over 90 percent of the billionairs are Jewish even though Jews make up 2 percent population of the United States, of course they would rather fund their beloved Jewish state from their big Mansions in California

The Jews should have never been able to settle in the Gaza strip the fact the UN did crap all was a complete joke.

Originally posted by Born British
The Jews should have never been able to settle in the Gaza strip the fact the UN did crap all was a complete joke.

Saying that the UN did crap is correct. In 1967 egyptian president Nasser started his aggressions against Israel and made it clear that his intensions were to attack Israel. He requested UN peacekeepers in the Sinai to leave (they were stationed in the Sinai after Israel's withdraw from the 1956 Sinai campaign -of which France and Britan were partners with Israel). The UN peacekeepers meant to keep peace did just what Nasser requested and left the Sinai so that he could mobilize his army.
Israel won that war and wiped Egypts butt.
In terms of Gaza, Jewish presence in Gaza were throughout the ages, Kfar Darom existed for ages was abandoned in 1929 due to arab murder stampedes, was reestablished in 1946 and was lost in the armistice agreement to Egypt. Jews returned to Gaza after the 1967 war.
So actually, In terms of history Jewish presence in Gaza is a historical fact and the only time Gaza was without Jews was for a few short decades in the 20th century.
source
Moreover, Kfar Darom was purchased by a Jew in the 1930s.

Regarding the arabale lands in Gaza as posted bu UK_united (and to all you other points as well) I have no idea were your statistics and information comes from. Gaza is mostly sand dunes and shrubs. Israel and its Jewish residents made it arable by irrigating the land and implementing innovative and patented technologies to make unarable lands arable. This is typical Arab propaganda lies - It is the hard work of the Jews which made Israel what it is today. Prior to Jewish settlement in all of Israel, coastal and northern Israel was malaria ridden marshlands. Come to Israel today and you can see eucalyptus trees all over the place which are not indigenous to the area. These trees were brought in by the Jews to drain marshlands, make it settleable and arable. Therefore lands unused by the Arabs were turned into flourishing lands by the Jews.
Now after Israel develops its lands and makes it liveable Arabs claim that it is Palestinian land which is stolen - More blatant lies. Same thing is true in the West bank. Visit the west bank and see that most Jewish settlement are on hilltops that were unused by Palestinians. For Palestinians low land was needed for water sources - highlands were less useful. Their claim to land theft is mostly lies.
Again, anti-Israel rhetoric fails to be accurate and actually is slanted by Arab and Israeli left-wing lies.

You insult taken out, Israel would never have won anything in Middle East against the Arabs if not for American military supplies to Israel. US needed Israel as a military and political stronghold in the region to counterweigh the Arab states, and during the Cold War, the Soviet Sphere of Influence. Israel is merely a TOOL to US, nothing more, nothing less. And if the value of the tool ceases to exist, US would just dispose of it in search for a new tool, just like he did to Ho Chi Minh before the French, Iraq, Iran, Liberia, South Vietnamese, Chinese naitonalists, etc.

[edit on 16-3-2006 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

[edit on 18-3-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

[edit on 18-3-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

You know what makes the Israeli so irrating and downright despictable, they would call anyone a Nazi if you show any Anti-Israelism or any doubts at their nation. Dude, the Halocuast was what, more than 60 years ago? Most Jewish survivors are not even here no more, move on. But no, the Israelis just use this as a way to be showered with sympathy and compassion from the West, but you know what? No one gives a crap anymore.

The American aboringinals were slaughtered by European settlers, they don't say a thing now. Chinese women were raped and tortured during Japanese occupation, they don't ask for sympathy from the world. Im sure there are loads more of these unfortunate victims from recent history and they just move on and live their own present lives putting the past behind them.

But Israel just have to keep on and on and on about the Halocaust that happened 6 decades ago, just another of their excuses that the Promised Land formerly lived by the Palestine is rightly justified for them, so they can do whatever they want to wipe the Palestinian chidren and women out with Apache helicopters M16 APC.

[edit on 16-3-2006 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Seeing how Israel has never been a threat to her neighbors, and since she has those weapons so that she may survive while being surrounded by people who want nothing but her demise, and since she can expect no help from a "world council" (U.N.) that despises her, nit-picking everything about her and ignoring all violations of human decency by her neighbors, I'd have to say, no. We should not try and take her nukes away.

I never did mind about the little things

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
You know what makes the Israeli so irrating and downright despictable, they would call anyone a Nazi if you show any Anti-Israelism or any doubts at their nation. Dude, the Halocuast was what, more than 60 years ago? Most Jewish survivors are not even here no more, move on. But no, the Israelis just use this as a way to be showered with sympathy and compassion from the West, but you know what? No one gives a crap anymore.

The American aboringinals were slaughtered by European settlers, they don't say a thing now. Chinese women were raped and tortured during Japanese occupation, they don't ask for sympathy from the world. Im sure there are loads more of these unfortunate victims from recent history and they just move on and live their own present lives putting the past behind them.

But Israel just have to keep on and on and on about the Halocaust that happened 6 decades ago, just another of their excuses that the Promised Land formerly lived by the Palestine is rightly justified for them, so they can do whatever they want to wipe the Palestinian chidren and women out with Apache helicopters M16 APC.

[edit on 16-3-2006 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

THat has got to be the downright most ignorant thing I have ever heard. OK so you are pissed off that the world is making such a racket about the holocaust. Sometimes it bug me as well. But that is because my ancestry is not of european decent but of central asian.
I have friends and relatives whos parents are very alive and holocaust survivors. A trauma such as the holocaust is a life long trauma that is also passed onto the children.
THe Afro-Americans were slaves over 200 years ago and are still making a fuss about it even though none of the black slaves are still alive.
American Indians have suffered massacres from the Americans also around 200 years ago and their culture was destroyed. Do you think their situation has been rectified. How many Indian Alcoholics are there? They still did not recover.

The holocaust is a fresh wound and what makes it an event that should be commemorized is that it was a policy imposed by a democracy to annhilate a population that for the most part was an integral part of that society. Of course there were other populations throughout recent history that suffered. THe Tibetens under the Chinese, Armenians under the Turks, Kurds under Sadaam Hussein, etc. What did not occur though was a systematic collection of those populations in camps, forced labor, systematic slaughter - dude they made soap out of holocaust victims, used their skins to make chandelers and other stuff and performed experiments on them as well.

The difference between Israel and the NAzis is that the Nazis were not at war with the Jews. The Jews weren't bombing buses, cafes, restaurants, wedding halls, churches. Israel is at WAR with the Palestinians.

Dude, you call Israel and Palestine are at WAR? W.A.R??



If not for EU UN and international condemn Israel would have already wiped Palestine off the surface of the planet tomorrow with all the nukes they have and hide from UN inspection.

You really need to revaluation who's the real victim here.

Maybe this will give you a clue: Quite a recent example of how Israel and Palestine are at "war".

www.atsnn.com...




[edit on 17-3-2006 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

Earth Unification I agree with you completely seriously Judah get over being so pro-Jewish, their not as holy as you want them to be.

ISrael and Palestine IS at war. A war that started with the al-Aqsa Intidadah Launched by Arafat and his terrorist cohorts. I knew at he start of the OSLO agreements from the behaviour of the Palestinian authority (PA) that OSLO will not last. OSLO was built on a concept of leaving the troublesome issue to the end. This means that Isael relinquishes land to the PA, provides them weapons for their 'police force' and money. AFter establishing a terrorist infrastructure in their territories I knew that the OSLO agreement will fail and a war will ensue because there will be no agreement on Jerusalem.
The al-Aqsa Intidadah is the name the Palesitnians call the uprisings (al-aqsa - Jerusalem). THat is what it is about. THe moment they did not get what they want through negotations they launch a campaign of terror. That is WAR. WHen Palestinian missles hit Israeli cities that is war. When Palestinian gunmen fire on Israeli city of Gillo in Jerusalem from Bethlehem that is war. There is no other way to call it. When bombs are set off in markets, buses, restaurants, cafes, wedding halls and in pubs THAT IS WAR!

If not for EU UN and international condemn Israel would have already wiped Palestine off the surface of the planet tomorrow with all the nukes they have and hide from UN inspection.

You'd like to think that. high and mighty EU and UN. How pathetic. The US setup and is the highest financer of the UN and they saved the europeans in WWI and WWII. 60 years ago you guys were killing each other and now you hold yourselves high and mighty while preaching to the whole world. Your oversite of the Muslim problem in your nation and your support of terrorists states and downright hypocracy is obvious.
Israel Has no need to hide nuclear weapons because they did not sign the nuclear nonproliferation treaty like Iran. Israel with their nukes from the 60s showed tremendous restaint in light of the 1973 war where Israel was threatened by a suprise attack. So I think you are mistaken on all front of your flimsy arguement. Your hate for Israel and pro-Palestinian stance is obvious.

Maybe this will give you a clue: Quite a recent example of how Israel and Palestine are at "war".

www.atsnn.com...

I guess you would suggest that the murderers of Israel's tourist ministers could be released since that is what both Hamas and Fatah wanted and Abu-Mazen ordered before he left the PA on his visits abroard. The Palestinians plan on making Bargouti and Saadat ministers in their next government both these people are in Israeli jails one for terrorism and the other for planning and ordering the murder of minister Rehavam Zeevi.
If you take that as an example then so do I.
Israel's military might is the only thing keeping it alive. THerefore the PAlestinians aim for a low intensity war. That is what is going on here.

The holocaust is a fresh wound and what makes it an event that should be commemorized is that it was a policy imposed by a democracy to annhilate a population that for the most part was an integral part of that society. Of course there were other populations throughout recent history that suffered. THe Tibetens under the Chinese, Armenians under the Turks, Kurds under Sadaam Hussein, etc. What did not occur though was a systematic collection of those populations in camps, forced labor, systematic slaughter - dude they made soap out of holocaust victims, used their skins to make chandelers and other stuff and performed experiments on them as well.

I agree for the most part but I do disagree with one thing there- what makes you think your people's suffering is above that of others? The West was won by making lamps out of Native American skins yet the those victims would never make such an absurd claim (that they are above critique because they "suffered the most"). I believe this show's in part the mentality of many Israelis- "Our suffering compensates that of any Palestinian goyim". Seriously, that's a pretty offensive thing to say, and your not the first Ive seen making this claim. Anyway, I do believe the Palestinians shell out an absurd amount of propaganda each year, and that Israel is unfairly blamed way too often. The intifada comes to mind.

[edit on 18-3-2006 by Nakash]

I agree for the most part but I do disagree with one thing there- what makes you think your people's suffering is above that of others? The West was one by making lamps out of Native American skins yet the those victims would never make such an absurd claim (that they are above critique because they "suffered the most"). I believe this show's in part the mentality of many Israelis- "Our suffering compensates that of any Palestinian goyim". Seriously, that's a pretty offensive thing to say, and your not the first Ive seen making this claim. Anyway, I do believe the Palestinians shell out an absurd amount of propaganda each year, and that Israel is unfairly blamed way too often. The intifada comes to mind.

Regarding lamp shades I saw it on a documentary film we were showed as children. Regarding the soap claim - it is common knowledge. On eBay afew years back someone also put it up for sale as a 'real wartime relic'.
THe idea of Israelis being above critique is a non-Israeli mentality. So is the claim that Jews can do anything because they are the chosen people. This is solely a non-Jewish arguement. On all Israeli political fronts ranging from the religious to the secular from Left to Right no-one claims superiority because of being the chosen people. Israelis do claim ownership to the land of Israel from a historic standpoint and from the fact that it is under Israeli possession.
Treatment of the palestinians as you claim is solely of defensive nature. Closures, military chekpoints and counter-terror sweeps would not be necessary if terrorist acts at the level the Palestinians have engaged in was not an issue.
Israel is just like any other nation except it is Jewish and under constant agression from its neighbors.

First of all, I am not even from Europe, or have any relationship to do with Europe. And of course, even the blind can see that i stand with Palestine on this one against the Israeli military and political brutality.

Conventional warfare involves nothing of blowing yourself up with home made explosives in the middle of a crowded Israeli market place, a bus, etc.

What this is, is resistence fighting, or according to the West act of terrorism. Ironically, the Isarelis, or Zionists, themselves were commited to "act of terrorism" as Shoguns, bombing British installations in the region when England restrict Jewish refugee into Palestine during WWII.

An interesting fact of how the Israelis are now fighting against what they used to be themselves.

And if what you said about the Israeli restrain of nuclear weapons since the 70s is true, why does this happen in 2000:

Extrenal Source:

"In response, Prime Minister Abdur-Ra'uf S. Rawabdeh said the entire Middle East should be rid of weapons of mass destruction, but also implied that it was difficult for the Kingdom to ensure Israel's compliance with international treaties on the control of nuclear weapons. Israel has not signed the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty, nor has it ever allow inspections of the facility by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Israel has never formally gone on record confirming the existence of its nuclear capabilities. Minister of Foreign Affairs Abdul Ilah Khatib recently issued a strong criticism of the secrecy that still shrouds Israel's nuclear capabilities, saying that the Jewish state should open its facilities to international inspection. Jordan and Israel earlier this week initialled a bilateral agreement on the environment, but the agreement makes no reference to Israel's nuclear facilities.１‥"

Some restrains they have