Invading Israel

JudahMaccabbi:

NO THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING! That is the problem with Arab culture. Arabs will never admit that they were wrong. Their pride will not let them.

I was being sarcastic-!!?

Why would i stick on my own side? I am from all kinds. So it's just being stupid to do so. Second: Let me give you my advice before you go around spreading more lies and making the Arab World look bad.-DON'T YOU EVER JUDGE A COUNTRY BY IT'S GOVERNMENT. EVER!! Well i read all you're replies but i am in no interst to reply because am tired of repeating the same things over and over again.

Salamz!!!!!!!

[edit on 25-3-2006 by MsPalestinian08]

you are wrong.

I am neither an American citizen, nor do I live in the U.S..
I am an Israeli citizen.

I know you lived in Palestine.
That's out of the question since you speak with such mentality-How could i not know?

I am a Palestinian Citizen.

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
Juhda US has been giving Israel aid to some extent ever since 1949.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

Yes, as you can see an insignificant amount prior to 1974 - After the 1973 war. You are forgetting that the Soviets supported both tne syrians and the Egyptiansat the time.

[edit on 25/3/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

MsPalestinian08,

So it's just being stupid to do so. Second: Let me give you my advice before you go around spreading more lies and making the Arab World look bad.-DON'T YOU EVER JUDGE A COUNTRY BY IT'S GOVERNMENT. EVER!! Well i read all you're replies but i am in no interst to reply because am tired of repeating the same things over and over again.

Sorry if I offended you. It is ironic that you do no want me to pass judgement on a country by the actions of the government yet Israel bashers judge Israel on the governments policies. It works both ways.
My guess is you mean not to pass judgement on the people based on the policies of the government. But that too is EXACTLY what is done by Israel basher, anti-semites and Arabs. Suicide bombings are a prime example of that - HAMAS, the PLO and Islamic Jihad sentence Israeli citizens who are not military personnel to death based on the governments policies. Israel in retaliation assassinates their military and spiritual leaders as a response and not their uninvolved civilians. Maybe civilians are lost in the crossfire but that is what happens when their military leaders hide among civilians and use them as shields.


I do not want you to repeat yourself, although, I am interested in the other sides arguement. Therefore, please link me to your replies given to various issues so that I can be more educated on the matters at hand.

As you may have noticed I try to use balanced sources such as wikipedia which is ont politically affiliated with any side and anyone can add their information on any subject so long as it is based on reliable sources.

[edit on 25/3/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

JudahMaccabbi:

Thanks for showing that someone actually cares.

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Conspiracy Theorist
regardless of which chapter of which charter the resolutions are filed under, dont u think that that when the community of civilised nations passes a reccomendation to a country that is accepted by the rest of the world, it should be followed? i certainly do.

Are you a bush supporter, just wondering.... I dont htink Isreal needs to be invaded. They never violated any treatys, or laws...And why are you pushing this subject so hard...isnt one war enough?

Last time I checked Bush was the most pro-Israel leader America ever had. I don't get the reasoning of invading your top middle East ally though unless your a Muslim American, in which case it sounds logical.

So you admit you have been wrong. Israel HAS BEEN aided financially by the US as early as since the 1949, and the first military aid arrived in 1959.

I am not sure of your economic knowledge, but given that inflation has been influatated in the global economics throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s, especially the 80s, 0.4 million US dollars loan back then in 1959 is equilivent of value to a good few billion US dollars today.

Even if the financial aid was not as in large ammount in the 1949 - 1974 time period as in the later 70s, would have Israel won against the Arabs in 1947-49; 1956 and 1967 respectively without any US monetary aid? I highly doubt it.

Futhermore, Moscow never directly supported Syria and Egypt until 1973, which on the other hand US has already given Israel a couple billions in aid since 1949. Russia was clearly playing the passive role, in responce to the aggression of US foreign policy of aiding Israel in Middle East.

Syria primarily bought its military arms from Czechoslovakia, but unlike Israel from US, Syria was never granted aids for free, and was required to pay back Czechoslovakia and USSR with its loan on top of interests.

Would Israel exist today from Arabs attack if not for US financial aid as early as since the 1949? No. Thus i do not see the reason for Israel celebrating its past victories with such empty pride.

[edit on 25-3-2006 by EarthUnificationFrontier]

Originally posted by EarthUnificationFrontier
So you admit you have been wrong. Israel HAS BEEN aided financially by the US as early as since the 1949, and the first military aid arrived in 1959.

I am not sure of your economic knowledge, but given that inflation has been influatated in the global economics throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s, especially the 80s, 0.4 million US dollars loan back then in 1959 is equilivent of value to a good few billion US dollars today.

Even if the financial aid was not as in large ammount in the 1949 - 1974 time period as in the later 70s, would have Israel won against the Arabs in 1947-49; 1956 and 1967 respectively without any US monetary aid? I highly doubt it.

Soviet aid to Syria and Egypt started with the formation of the United Arab rebublic (and probably earlier) in 1958 - source and additional source
They did receive economic aid and military aid from the USSR.
Your price index calculations are flawed. a $400,000 loan in the 50s would not amount to $1,000,000,000 now. This would require a price index increase of 2500 times. This is highly unlikely. Moreover Israel received military LOANs up to 1974 not grants as provided from your source. The Grants that were provided by teh US up to then was economic aid not military.

Futhermore, Moscow never directly supported Syria and Egypt until 1973, which on the other hand US has already given Israel a couple billions in aid since 1949. Russia was clearly playing the passive role, in responce to the aggression of US foreign policy of aiding Israel in Middle East.
Syria primarily bought its military arms from Czechoslovakia, but unlike Israel from US, Syria was never granted aids for free, and was required to pay back Czechoslovakia and USSR with its loan on top of interests.

This is obvioulsy wrong as is obvious from the info I provided.

Would Israel exist today from Arabs attack if not for US financial aid as early as since the 1949? No. Thus i do not see the reason for Israel celebrating its past victories with such empty pride.

This is obviously wrong from the info I provided. The USSR supported economically and militarily the Egyptians and Soviets from the early 50s.
Moreover I'd like to tell you a story. My father fought in the 1967, 1973 wars and the war of attrition in between the two. It was during this time he was stationed in the Suez Canal where their reserve unit used to view on the Egyptian side fair-skinned soldiers in Egyptian uniforms. It was common knowledge among the soldiers from intelligence reports that these were soviet advisors and officers helping out the Egyptians and Syrians. Russian speaking soldiers from IDF would yelll curses in Russian at them to let them know that they were onto them.

Another little piece of info that would interest you is the case during the war of attrition (late 60s early 70s) were Israeli fighter pilots would consistently blow Egyptian fighters out of the sky during engagements. THe egytian fighters were soviet made. The Egytpians posted complaints to teh soviets that their fighters were inefficient. The soviets claimed that the egytptians were bad pilots. To settle the arguement the soviets sent pilots to Egypt to deal with the ISraelis. The Israel Air force (IAF) blew the soviets out of the sky as well.
source

Therefore, again you were wrong on all the points you made.

Juddah, let's be fair- Doc Zakheim stole a trillion dollars while in the Pentagon, and we have given another trillion in aid since 1967. Arabs simply don't have the same level of technology as the Israelis do. This superace "conqueror" ideology is the problem, Muslims have the exact same mindiset by the way (why there will NEVER be peace).

[edit on 26-3-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by Nakash
Juddah, let's be fair- Doc Zakheim stole a trillion dollars while in the Pentagon, and we have given another trillion in aid since 1967. Arabs simply don't have the same level of technology as the Israelis do. This superace "conqueror" ideology is the problem, Muslims have the exact same mindiset by the way (why there will NEVER be peace).

[edit on 26-3-2006 by Nakash]

I am not familiar with Zakheim and I am not sure that your "trillion in aid since 1967" is correct. Military aid of ~1.5 Billion/year for ~30 years does not add up to a trillion. Moreover, Israel's military conquest was most significant up to 1967 so technology and military aid do not play a factor here.

Currently Israeli technology is superior this is just because of Israeli technological know-how and the fact that Israel is allied with the US and hence US technology while the Arabs are allied with the Russians and therefore Russian technology. I'd say that US technology is better and this has been proven by the Israelis on the ground.

I do not think that there is an issue of a super-race conquerer mentality with Israel at least since Israel ever since 1993 has been reliquishing land to the Palestinians for peace (and to Egypt in the late 70s). Conquerers do not give back lands. Arabs on the other hand are admant not only to get back all the lands they perceive as being theirs but also on destroying Israel.

Currently with HAMAS in government, peace talks are irrelevant so you may be right about never having peace.

I just think that mutual respect is an important issue. Israel has a moral superiority over HAMAS who want's to conquer and slay all the Jews in classic fascism- don't relinquish that superiority by adhering to that same retrogade mindset. Also, I don't think aid amounted to a trillion (Egypt also received an enormous wads of cash which seem to have dissapeared), but it is unfair to portray Arabs as a bunch of weaklings when they clearly have a technological lag over either Israeli military technology or Western-U.S. tech.

[edit on 27-3-2006 by Nakash]

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Even though Israel has a good military I always wondered what would happen upon a full out assault by their neighbours. Not something to look forward to but the middle east is so volatile and always has been it is not impossible that such a thing could happen.

It happend once, when egypt and syria attaked israel in october 1973, at the same time , in the first 3 days , syrians reached to the borders of israeli settlements in northern isarel, and egyptians passed and destroyed (barleiv line) i am not sure of the spelling,in few hours and advanced to israel through the international highway in sinai destroying and killing israeli militants , and were a few hundred kilometers away from the israeli border. during that time . kissinger put lots of pressure on mr. nixon to allow for immediate military assistance to israel, after , golda maer (israeli prime minister) made a quick visit to US, begging for american help, i listened to her speech, when she was crying and telling the americans that isreal was invaded from both sides and will be destroyed in no time if it doesn't get the help from the US. I remember watching the news, that showed huge american B52 , i think, landing in haifa and tel aviv airports loaded of , all kinds of military equipment, tanks artilery, missiles,...etc.. It was a 24 hours air bridge from US to Israel , it lasted for the whole period of the war. still , even that americans were doing their best to asist their ally, syrian and egyptian armies were unshakable, suddenly , the advance of 2 arab armies were halted, and started thier withdrawal, and israeli army started to attak and advance in both sides. guess what happened? the israeli prime minister sent a message with kissinger to soviets' leadership, if arabs won't stop their attak and withdraw. isreal is going to nuke damascus, cairo. Do you know now ,why arabs don't wipe away israel even that they can do it any time? not because of the super brave israeli army, as westerners acclaim, because of the more than 200 nuclear heads that israel owns.

Anwar al-Sadat signed a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel shortly after the Yom Kippur war 1973.

Isn't that a good start for a happy end and a stable Middle East?

The October War 1973 and U.S. Policy - The Soviet Position on the 1973 War

Originally posted by dana2006

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Even though Israel has a good military I always wondered what would happen upon a full out assault by their neighbours. Not something to look forward to but the middle east is so volatile and always has been it is not impossible that such a thing could happen.

It happend once, when egypt and syria attaked israel in october 1973, at the same time , in the first 3 days , syrians reached to the borders of israeli settlements in northern isarel, and egyptians passed and destroyed (barleiv line) i am not sure of the spelling,in few hours and advanced to israel through the international highway in sinai destroying and killing israeli militants , and were a few hundred kilometers away from the israeli border. during that time . kissinger put lots of pressure on mr. nixon to allow for immediate military assistance to israel, after , golda maer (israeli prime minister) made a quick visit to US, begging for american help, i listened to her speech, when she was crying and telling the americans that isreal was invaded from both sides and will be destroyed in no time if it doesn't get the help from the US. I remember watching the news, that showed huge american B52 , i think, landing in haifa and tel aviv airports loaded of , all kinds of military equipment, tanks artilery, missiles,...etc.. It was a 24 hours air bridge from US to Israel , it lasted for the whole period of the war. still , even that americans were doing their best to asist their ally, syrian and egyptian armies were unshakable, suddenly , the advance of 2 arab armies were halted, and started thier withdrawal, and israeli army started to attak and advance in both sides. guess what happened? the israeli prime minister sent a message with kissinger to soviets' leadership, if arabs won't stop their attak and withdraw. isreal is going to nuke damascus, cairo. Do you know now ,why arabs don't wipe away israel even that they can do it any time? not because of the super brave israeli army, as westerners acclaim, because of the more than 200 nuclear heads that israel owns.

Dana2006,
You seemed to have rewritten history. I will try to draw a more accurate pictures based on verifiable fact rather than dreamed up unverifiable fiction.

The source ofyour information would be interesting. I am totally unaware of the story although I heard of another story and it goes like this. The US was reluctant to help Israel so Israel set up for a press conference in an air force base where the air force was training. The press invited were also american reporters who where known to Israel as being CIA. The airforce pilot was told to run a few mock nuke bombing runs which would be obvious to CIA spys. This in parallel to a subtle threat that if Israel would not get assistance Israel would nuke the Egyptians and Syrians. This was the trigger pushed the Americans to aid Israel in the war with weapons etc. I cannot verify that it is true but is something I was told.

What I can confirm is facts that can be found on the internet and history books is the following the sides in the war was Israel with

415,000 troops; 1,500 tanks, 3,000 armored carriers; 945 artillery units 100 mm and up; 561 airplanes, 84 helicopters; 38 warships. [1]

and the Arabs with:

Egypt: 830,000 troops; 2,200 tanks, 2,400 armored carriers; 1,120 artillery units 100 mm and up; 690 airplanes, 161 helicopters; 104 warships
Syria: 332,000 troops; 1,350 tanks, 1,300 armored carriers; 655 artillery units 100 mm and up; 321 airplanes, 36 helicopters; 21 warships
Iraq: 20,000 troops, 310 tanks, 300 armored carriers, 54 artillery units, 73 airplanes) [1]

and

Besides Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, several other Arab nations were involved in this war, providing additional weapons and financing. The amount of support is uncertain.

Saudi Arabia and Kuwait gave financial aid and sent some token forces to join in the battle. Morocco sent three brigades to the front lines; the Palestinians sent troops as well (Rabinovich, 464). Pakistan sent sixteen pilots.

From 1971 to 1973, Muammar al-Qaddafi of Libya sent Mirage fighters and gave Egypt around $1 billion to arm for war. Algeria sent squadrons of fighters and bombers, armored brigades, and dozens of tanks. Tunisia sent over 1,000 soldiers, who worked with Egyptian forces in the Nile delta, and Sudan sent 3,500 soldiers.

Uganda radio reported that Idi Amin sent Ugandan soldiers to fight against Israel. Cuba also sent approximately 1,500 troops including tank and helicopter crews who reportedly also engaged in combat operations against the IDF. [6]

source
THe above source makes a very interesting reading.

During this whole time the Soviets were providing the Arab armies with supplies by sea and air and also coaxing ARab countries to join the war. The US began to trickle supplies to ISrael in october 8th (2 days after the war) but when they realized just how much the SOviets were aiding the ARabs it was decided on OCt 11 to provide Israel with a substantial amount to aid which arrived to Israel only in Oct 14th and then additional time was required to move it to the front.

THe US upplied Israel with weapons to counter Soviet involvement in the Middle East.

NOTE: The above information was taken from p769 of the book History of ISrael by Howard M. Sachar.

The Egyptians were very far from the border with Israel as can be seen from the maps on the wikipedia link I provided.

SO to sum up Israel was outnumbered by nearly 3:1 in troops over 2:1 with tanks, nearly 2:1 on Artillery, over 2:1 on planes (Israel was outnumbered in every aspect), Soviets provided continuing support throughout the war while the US came in late.
Tallying up the dead the body count was over 8500 arabs to over 2600 Israelis and this was considered a devistating war for Israel.

Had Israel went ahead to destroy the trapped Egyptian 3rd Army the ARab casualties would have been astronomical.

WIth this said, war is nothing to be proud of.
I just hope that the ARab learn that Israel is not to be messed with.

[edit on 28/3/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
SO to sum up Israel was outnumbered by nearly 3:1 in troops over 2:1 with tanks, nearly 2:1 on Artillery, over 2:1 on planes (Israel was outnumbered in every aspect), Soviets provided continuing support throughout the war while the US came in late.
Tallying up the dead the body count was over 8500 arabs to over 2600 Israelis and this was considered a devistating war for Israel.

Had Israel went ahead to destroy the trapped Egyptian 3rd Army the ARab casualties would have been astronomical.

WIth this said, war is nothing to be proud of.
I just hope that the ARab learn that Israel is not to be messed with.

Mr. JudahMaccabbi,

I didn't rewrite the history, and I am not trying to rewrite it. I am talking of what I read on american newspapers and their tv reports on the october war in 1973. and notice you didn't contradict me at all. Yes arabs outnumbered israelis with everything but with less quality, you can't compare soviet tanks, artilery, war planes,...etc. to american more advanced military equipment. even that israelis had more advanced equipment, they were on the verge of collapsing in the first 3 days of the war. without threatning Mr. sadat and Al-assad with israeli nuclwear attak, the jewish state would be a memory now. go and watch the news archives of that war. look at Mr. Dayan and Mrs. Maer's faces. for god's sake she was crying infront of international media, and pleading for american help. can you belive that a small israeli platoon can sourround the whole egyptian 3rd army...suddenly, which was a few hours away from invading the whole israeli south west border. my dear maccabbi it was the israeli nuclear threat with previous approvar of US, that forced saddat and assad to halt their armies attak on israel. Israel reminds me of the small puppy in Tom and Jerry cartoon, he thinks that he is the one scares kicks the butt of Tom , he doesn't know that Tom is scared of his dad. did you get it?

[Mod Edit: Formatting - Jak]

[edit on 2/4/06 by JAK]

You have your views I have mine.
Fact is that Israel turned the war over in the Golan 2 days after the war broke out. This without ANY assistance. They Syrians were at a clear retreat and second that the 3rd army was trapped by a division not a platoon. As soon as this happened the Soviets and the Egyptians started yelling to high hell at the UN that they required a cease fire. THAT is what is in the history books.
Of course Golda and its leadership were scared - this was the first war Israel did not pre-empt and it cost Israel a heavy price. I think we learned the lesson since.
The fact that Israel did not demolish the 3rd Army and allowed the Egyptians to strike first is what gave the Egyptians the 'face' to come to Israel with the peace proposal that was signed.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
You have your views I have mine.
Fact is that Israel turned the war over in the Golan 2 days after the war broke out. This without ANY assistance. They Syrians were at a clear retreat and second that the 3rd army was trapped by a division not a platoon. As soon as this happened the Soviets and the Egyptians started yelling to high hell at the UN that they required a cease fire. THAT is what is in the history books.
Of course Golda and its leadership were scared - this was the first war Israel did not pre-empt and it cost Israel a heavy price. I think we learned the lesson since.
The fact that Israel did not demolish the 3rd Army and allowed the Egyptians to strike first is what gave the Egyptians the 'face' to come to Israel with the peace proposal that was signed.

What history books? Jewish and american zionist books?!

Try to read this paper, it is the first objective and accurate unbiased research, written about the reality of the strong jewish influence on american foriegn policy and the negative effects on the whole US:


(THE ISRAEL LOBBY AND U.S. FOREIGN POLICY )  

  John J. Mearsheimer Department of Political Science University of Chicago   Stephen M. Walt John F. Kennedy School of Governme nt Harvard University   
 March 2006 RWP06‐011 

An unedited version of (Israel Lobby) article is available at ksgnotes1.harvard.edu... or at papers.ssrn.com...=891198.

I envite all participants on this thread to read the unedited version of this paper, it's very interesting and it will finally open the eyes of american citizens on how Israelis and zionists are using and abusing the american resources and interests for their own benefits, for long time ago.

Here is a thread about that paper - Harvard alerady backed away from "Israel lobby" Professors and the The Harvard Kennedy School of Government logo has disappeared.....

Source

The new, much more prominent disclaimer reads:

The two authors of this Working Paper are solely responsible for the views expressed in it.

As academic institutions, Harvard University and the University of Chicago do not take positions on the scholarship of individual faculty, and this article should not be interpreted or portrayed as reflecting the official position of either institution

Originally posted by Riwka
Here is a thread about that paper - Harvard alerady backed away from "Israel lobby" Professors and the The Harvard Kennedy School of Government logo has disappeared.....

typical reaction even from prestigious american educatinal institutions. they are scared of the jewish and zionist retaliation, using their typical excuse " anti semitism", this is what i am talking about. the strange reaction of harvard and chicago universities, should encourage all americans to read this paper, it is about time for americans to wake up and stop listening to the zionists' fairytales about the superiority of jews, and about being above the low.