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Invading Israel

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posted on Mar, 18 2006 @ 03:35 AM
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Hmm, i have read your justification for the Israeli raid on West Bank Prison.

So is this how they work it out for Israel? To capture a bunch of former militants now already imprisoned in an armed jurisdiction facility, you need a bunch of tanks, bulldozers, helicopters and fully armed soldiers with m16 storming the prison while completely demolish the whole place down, and oh yea killing three valueless Palestinian prison guards in the process of captureing those "highly dangerous" prisoners that is ALREADY locked up.

I guess that's how they define "efficientcy" in Hebrew eh?




posted on Mar, 18 2006 @ 06:13 PM
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EarthUnificationFrontier,
You seem to suffer from a loss of a sense of reality.
You tried to equate Palestinian 'resistance' with Israeli resistance prior to 1948 - Your arguement has no merit. WHen did Israel bomb churches, buses, cafes, and restaurants prior to 1948 to kill the British. Israeli militants targeted military British targets. Palestinians target unarmed, non-combatant Israelis with no part in the conflict aside from being Jewish and/or Israeli. Your comparison fails miserably.

When trying to counter my example for Israels restraint relating to nuclear capabilities you came up with a supposed quote of the Former Jordanian prime minister. It has no relation to Israel exercising restain in its nuclear capabilities. Israel is NOT obligated to allow international inspectors since they never signed the non-proliferation pact.

Regarding the prison raid. The Prison was not totally demolished, they were not former militants (although nice anemic label you placed on them. Next you'll be telling me they are nominees for the Nobel peace prize).

REgarding Israels efficiency - Damn efficient. Not a single Israeli was injured and the three guards that were killed openned fire on Israeli soldiers - they were fair game.

THe 'former militants' as you called them stated they would prefer to die in battle rather than surrender. They surrendered like the cowards that they are.

Next time try to make VALID points.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
EarthUnificationFrontier,
You seem to suffer from a loss of a sense of reality.
You tried to equate Palestinian 'resistance' with Israeli resistance prior to 1948 - Your arguement has no merit. WHen did Israel bomb churches, buses, cafes, and restaurants prior to 1948 to kill the British. Israeli militants targeted military British targets. Palestinians target unarmed, non-combatant Israelis with no part in the conflic
t aside from being Jewish and/or Israeli.


You are righ , you can't compare palestinian resistance with I sraeli resistance, because their wasn't any....resistance against whome? the british government....hahaha....it was a charade....Israelis and british deserved an oscar for their performance....british zionist primeminister "Balfour" promised jews to give them palestine as a gift... jews were shipped from all over the world to palestine during the period of british Sovereignty on the middle east. without british tremendous assistance, jews couldn't establish their states in the place of palestine.

go back and read the british archive about that period and you can find lots of information, about the jewish terrorism in palestine, and how jewish terrorist groups (haganah...etc) used to kill palestenian civilians (beer ziet massacre...etc.) , plus british soldiers who were , secretly helping jews...can you imagine how impudent were the jewish terrorists...if you don't believe, do some research on ex-israeli prime minister, Mnahiem Baygen, he was on the wanted terrorist list of british government.


Israel is NOT obligated to allow international inspectors since they never signed the non-proliferation pact.



Oh , what an excellent excuse, israel is above the international laws, because jews are the chosen people.do you believe me now when I tell you that israelis are arrogant and rude. every country in this world should sign the non-proliferation pact, only israel can avoid doing that, plus can own more than 200 atomic warheads. baradie can't say a word to israel but can threaten Iran even that it does'nt have any atomic bomb. double standards of western government is unbelievable.


Regarding the prison raid. The Prison was not totally demolished.


it doesn't matter if it's half or the whole prison, what's matteris how israei government is rediculing the international laws , and using warplanes and tanks to dimolish a prison in an occupied land under the supervision of US and british monitors.



REgarding Israels efficiency - Damn efficient. Not a single Israeli was injured and the three guards that were killed openned fire on Israeli soldiers - they were fair game.



oh brave israeli soldiers , soldiers who are chosen by god.of course stupid you can't find any injury among israelis, when they dimolish the prison by bombing it with artillery from atleast 2 miles away then driftting and flattening it with huge military machins. what a brave israeli soldiers, I salute them.


THe 'former militants' as you called them stated they would prefer to die in battle rather than surrender. They surrendered like the cowards that they are..


there are prisoners with any weapons ...stupids, the cowerd are the israelis who dimolished the prison from afar by using tanks, artilerry, warplanes,...against prisoners without any weapons.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 08:28 AM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
EarthUnificationFrontier,
You seem to suffer from a loss of a sense of reality.
You tried to equate Palestinian 'resistance' with Israeli resistance prior to 1948 - Your arguement has no merit. WHen did Israel bomb churches, buses, cafes, and restaurants prior to 1948 to kill the British. Israeli militants targeted military British targets. Palestinians target unarmed, non-combatant Israelis with no part in the conflict aside from being Jewish and/or Israeli. Your comparison fails miserably.

When trying to counter my example for Israels restraint relating to nuclear capabilities you came up with a supposed quote of the Former Jordanian prime minister. It has no relation to Israel exercising restain in its nuclear capabilities. Israel is NOT obligated to allow international inspectors since they never signed the non-proliferation pact.

Regarding the prison raid. The Prison was not totally demolished, they were not former militants (although nice anemic label you placed on them. Next you'll be telling me they are nominees for the Nobel peace prize).

REgarding Israels efficiency - Damn efficient. Not a single Israeli was injured and the three guards that were killed openned fire on Israeli soldiers - they were fair game.

THe 'former militants' as you called them stated they would prefer to die in battle rather than surrender. They surrendered like the cowards that they are.

Next time try to make VALID points.


So it's OK to kill Brits but not Israelis?

Your murder was a legitimate liberation struggle, their murder is terrorism.

As a Brit I'd remind you your terrorists killed 232 British Squaddies; you're lucky we're a reasonable nation and didn't extract justifiable revenge. Using Israel's current standards we could have killed c. 1,000 of your citizens - justifiably.


Interesting point you raise - are there any non-combatant Israelis? With universal conscription / service and a very high proportion of people on the reserve surely all Israelis are potential combatants.

Not excusing any brutality on either side but couldn't one argue Israel has a total war society and therefore everyone is a legitimate target? - cf civilians in WW2.

Also it seems Israel supports military incursion into other countries - didn't we go to war in GW1 precisely over this matter?



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 09:07 AM
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Strangerous,
I am not saying that killing brits is legitimate. Killing is never legitimate. I was simply saying that Resistance can be defined as an armed struggle to liberate a land when the target is a military target. The British had full justification to arrest those who planned and executed any military operation against them and if those militants resorted to violence they would kill them as well. The British assassinated Avraham Stern in a manner much like Israelis kill Hamas military leaders as well.



As a Brit I'd remind you your terrorists killed 232 British Squaddies; you're lucky we're a reasonable nation and didn't extract justifiable revenge. Using Israel's current standards we could have killed c. 1,000 of your citizens - justifiably


Your comparison here too is wrong. Palestinians killed over 1000 Israelis in the last 6 years. Most were civilians who were the targets. 232 British soldiers pales in the comparison. Israeli militants did not target cafes, restaurants or churches to kill the British.



Interesting point you raise - are there any non-combatant Israelis? With universal conscription / service and a very high proportion of people on the reserve surely all Israelis are potential combatants.


So according to your extremist rationale all Palestinians are potential terrorists. Don't go down that road. Children up to 18 do not serve in the army. Women above 20 generally do not serve in the army and if a man aged 35 goes to a restaurant with his family you think he is a legitimate target because in the event of a war he may or may not be called upon to serve in the IDF? This is a very flimsy arguement.




Not excusing any brutality on either side but couldn't one argue Israel has a total war society and therefore everyone is a legitimate target? - cf civilians in WW2.


What makes Israel as you call it a 'war society'? Was Israel attacked when it was established or did it attack? Israel has been targetted by its Arab neighbors since its conception militarily, economically, politically and spiritually. Israel, in order to survive, need to live by the sword not out of will.
Maybe you should visit Israel one day, get to know the people it will change your outlook on who we are.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 10:09 AM
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You are righ , you can't compare palestinian resistance with I sraeli resistance, because their wasn't any....resistance against whome? the british government....hahaha....it was a charade....Israelis and british deserved an oscar for their performance....british zionist primeminister "Balfour" promised jews to give them palestine as a gift... jews were shipped from all over the world to palestine during the period of british Sovereignty on the middle east. without british tremendous assistance, jews couldn't establish their states in the place of palestine.


I forget this is a Conspiracy Forum. Regardless, you seem to forget that Jewish immigration was highly restricted by the British which forced many to immigrate illegally while others (most of the illegal immigrants) were turned back to their respective countries regardless of the holocaust. How tremendous is that help? In the eyes of the Arabs it had to be tremendous since a pathetic, homeless group of refugees from all over the world were able to defeat the great, better equiped and overnumbering combination of Arab armies. These conspiracy theories are created to make the defeat more defensible and palatable.




go back and read the british archive about that period and you can find lots of information, about the jewish terrorism in palestine, and how jewish terrorist groups (haganah...etc) used to kill palestenian civilians (beer ziet massacre...etc.) , plus british soldiers who were , secretly helping jews...can you imagine how impudent were the jewish terrorists...if you don't believe, do some research on ex-israeli prime minister, Mnahiem Baygen, he was on the wanted terrorist list of british government.


True haganah, Etzel and Lehi committed what is termed as terrorist acts against the Arabs. I will challenge you to research the other side of the coin though. All those acts came as a retaliation against the Arabs for massacres they themselves commited against the Jews. These retaliations also came after a long period of restraint or 'havlaga' as termed in Hebrew. At some point restaint against Arab agressions collapsed and both sides massacred each other. Read about the riots in 'Palestine' - 1929, the Arab riots of 1920, Riots of 1921 and these are only the big riots that occured without the little ones were only 1-10 people were killed.
I know quite well about Menahem Begin and Israeli history. You do not need to lecture me. Let me ask you this. Currently there is no definitive definition of terrorism. Politicians use the world to suite their needs calling just about everyone terrorists. However, modern definition defines terrorism as having elements of indiscriminate violence that generally targets civilians you can look it up here. Under the current definition (putting aside political mud-slinging) Menahem Begin was NOT a terrorist. The British military command was located in the King David hotel which was bombed after warning were issued to the Hotel, the French cousulate and a Newspaper. This is in stark contrast to the evil and cowardly attacks Muslims perpetrate in Israel, Spain, the US, France, Russia, India, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey and the UK.



Oh , what an excellent excuse, israel is above the international laws, because jews are the chosen people.do you believe me now when I tell you that israelis are arrogant and rude. every country in this world should sign the non-proliferation pact, only israel can avoid doing that, plus can own more than 200 atomic warheads. baradie can't say a word to israel but can threaten Iran even that it does'nt have any atomic bomb. double standards of western government is unbelievable.

When did the Chosen People ever come up except by the pathetic ravings of Jew-haters and Arabs? The non-prolifiration pact is not required to be signed. All those who signed it are awarded knowlege in the use of nuclear power for useful means. Iran signed it knowing full well that they will reneg on that pact. That is the issue. Of course Iran, the Arab world and the sympathisers wish to side-line that little fact and make Israel the issue.
If you sign a treaty that gave you a knowledge that you are not allowed to use for military purposes DON'T use it for military purposes. The fact Israel has the technology long before the pact was even created does not make it OK to violate the pact.



it doesn't matter if it's half or the whole prison, what's matteris how israei government is rediculing the international laws , and using warplanes and tanks to dimolish a prison in an occupied land under the supervision of US and british monitors


What you are missing is the fact that the Palestinians planned on releasing the prisoners in question which in itself was a violation of internation laws and treaties. But then again Arabs can do as they wish can they not? violate treaties, international pacts and then blame Israel.




oh brave israeli soldiers , soldiers who are chosen by god.of course stupid you can't find any injury among israelis, when they dimolish the prison by bombing it with artillery from atleast 2 miles away then driftting and flattening it with huge military machins. what a brave israeli soldiers, I salute them.


Actually my deluded friend the tanks and helicopters used were used to quiet gunfire from adjacent areas. A tractor was called in to slowly bring down the prison. This was done to scare the prisoners to surrender. Before that an Israeli SWAT team was landed on the roof of the complex and got into a firefight with the guards.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Strangerous,
I am not saying that killing brits is legitimate. Killing is never legitimate. I was simply saying that Resistance can be defined as an armed struggle to liberate a land when the target is a military target. The British had full justification to arrest those who planned and executed any military operation against them and if those militants resorted to violence they would kill them as well. The British assassinated Avraham Stern in a manner much like Israelis kill Hamas military leaders as well.



Who are you to say what their motives are? If Israel is supposedly a democracy the citizenry is responsible for denying the Palestinians their freedom.

Who are you to say they are not fighting for their freedom?

Until they are free no one can say that freedom is not their motive.

If the PEOPLE of Israel decide they no longer want to occupy Palestinian territories then the government will follow their wishes.

They are motivating those with the power to end the occupation.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Your comparison here too is wrong. Palestinians killed over 1000 Israelis in the last 6 years. Most were civilians who were the targets. 232 British soldiers pales in the comparison. Israeli militants did not target cafes, restaurants or churches to kill the British.

Maybe you should visit Israel one day, get to know the people it will change your outlook on who we are.


232 'pales' against 1,000? How so?

How mant Palestinians have the IDF / armed israeli 'citizens' killed during the same period? Does Israel even keep figures?

No I will never visit Israel - I don't even buy your fruit.

'We'? I thought you lived in the US? - exactly where does your primary loyalty lie? - assuming the US and Israel are still two separate countries



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 02:04 PM
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Malichai,
I fail to see how the quoteyou provided and your answer to that quote match but I'll make an effort to respond.
The conflict is a conflict of Palestinian freedom at the expense of an Israeli existance. now I will explain why:
1- When Palestinians speak of Palestine they mean the Palestinian territories in addition to Israeli territories. You can see this in the emblem of Fatah taken from their website.

behind the AKs and the grenade is a map of all of Israel. Fatah is Arafat and Abu Mazen's party.
The PFLPs propaganda fliers:

Note the Flag with Israel and the territories as one entity and the Kafia banner covering all of Israel and the territories. The PFLP is a party of one of the PLO factions. IT is the faction of Ahmad Saadat one of the Prisoners detained by Israel in the Jericho jail last week.

Note the Palestinian National Authority's Ministry of Parlimentary Affairs website - Their map of Palestine covers the entire land of Israel and the territories.
So that is a little show in pictures.
Now for the substance. The Palestinian leadership is intent on implmenting what they call right to return. Which means that all those who left Israel during the war of independance can return to Israel with their families, children and grandchildren. The displaced Palestinians according to UNRWA is anyone who's

. . . residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948. . .

This also counts Egyptians, Sudanese, Syrians or any other Arab who worked in 'Palestine' and lived there are the time. According to UNRWA this amounts to more than 4 million people who will flood Israel and, in essence, by Israel's democracy will turn it into Palestine de-facto.
Hamas's charter is clear on the land of Palestine whicih includes all of Israel.
Therefore I do not need guess what their motives are - IT IS CLEAR.
Malichai, They are fighting for their freedom but, according to them, their freedom means our loss of freedom. This is unacceptable. That is the reason why the peace process is at an inpass.

Strangerous over 3000 Palestinians lost their lives during the 6 year conflict. This statistics though is unreliable since it includes various deaths unrelatated to the conflict.
Your insistence on not buying Israeli friut is your loss. It is too bad you are brown-nosing the Arabs by engaging in their embargo but thats OK because I do not buy Arab products as well.
As for who I am I am an American Israeli living in Israel for almost 13 years now. How do my loyalties contribute to the discussion? Israel and the US are allies in the fight against terrorism. My loyalties are clear. What are your?

[edit on 19/3/06 by JudahMaccabbi]



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Malichai,
I fail to see how the quoteyou provided and your answer to that quote match but I'll make an effort to respond.
The conflict is a conflict of Palestinian freedom at the expense of an Israeli existance. now I will explain why:


Israels existance is under greater threat because of the occupation. They gain nothing other than the land they take. You try to create a dichotomy where the only result can be the destruction of one or another. I believe that there can be another solution to the problems.

I know that asking you to imagine yourself in their position is not going to do any good, but I will say that because you cannot do this you will not understand why Israel faces this conflict. Your sympathies lie in one side, and all your energies are expended demonizing the other side.

Its a trap that many will never get out of, but maybe enough of the world will see fit to do the right thing and interceed on the behalf of the Palestinians.

I am afaid that if Israel does not offer a solution soon the results will not favor them in the future.

Hamas has offered a ceasefire in exchange for an Israeli withdraw. While it may not be everything Israel wants it is a place to begin discussions.

[edit on 19-3-2006 by Malichai]



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

Strangerous over 3000 Palestinians lost their lives during the 6 year conflict. This statistics though is unreliable since it includes various deaths unrelatated to the conflict.
Your insistence on not buying Israeli friut is your loss. It is too bad you are brown-nosing the Arabs by engaging in their embargo but thats OK because I do not buy Arab products as well.
As for who I am I am an American Israeli living in Israel for almost 13 years now. How do my loyalties contribute to the discussion? Israel and the US are allies in the fight against terrorism. My loyalties are clear. What are your?

[edit on 19/3/06 by JudahMaccabbi]


same thing can be said about israeli deaths eveyrbody in israel has to serve in the millitry how do we know the people who are killed arnt reserve soldiers who are with out and about in civillians clothing becuase they just finished there days worth of millitry duty and they decided to go out to a night club? fact is israel is very devious in the way it describes the people that die it always says for example 7 womeen and 5 men where killed but what it doesnt say is if those people where civillains or reserve soldiers on a break.

i remeber i think a while back a suicide bomb was detonated near a bus stop and some guy from the israeli government was on the media and he said an israeli women was kille dby a sucide bomb and that was an act of terrorism but what was later revealed as the story progressed and more information came forward and leaked out to the internation media was that woman was actually on her way to the millitry base and was a reserve soldier and i have no doubt that he knew thats why he carefully used those words to describe her. and this is what is devious about israel they always try to pass on there reserve soldiers as civillians when ever they can while trying to pass of all palestinains as terrorists or human shields.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 02:26 PM
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and to your other post i will like to say why shouldnt the palestinians get back there land. the nazis where forced to give back all paintings, vases and anything they took from jews why shouldnt the jews give back whatever they stole from the palestinians. why is it that a jew can keep whatever he took from a palestinian during conflict yet if the same thing happens to a jew by a nazi he is forced to give it back to the jew.

[edit on 19-3-2006 by iqonx]



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 02:28 PM
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No loss at all. I boycott many things I don't agree with.

My loyalties are to my country and all it stands for - no conflict / duality here



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by Strangerous
No loss at all. I boycott many things I don't agree with.

My loyalties are to my country and all it stands for - no conflict / duality here


same here i dont buy anything made in israel either. not ther fruits, clothes i dont even but intel microprocessors or motorola phone becuase i refuse to pay for the occupation of a forign country and people. anything that has been made in israel is boycotted from my house and even cousins and relatives have boycotted israeli products and business or anybody that has there business in there country.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 04:02 PM
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Classified Info,

"Israel has been invaded before. That tiny little country is sourounded by fanatics that have stated over and over again their desire to drive them into the ocean. They need a strong defense if they are going to survive as a country. I can't fault them for this. "

It is in fact not "classified info", that Israel surrounded by people from whom Zionist stole their land, and occupied it with Eastern European Jews. TE Lawrence.

Israel is the ONLY "equal partner" country which gives COMPLETE amnesty and government protection to ALL Jews requesting Israeli asylum/citizenship, disregarding international law and what ever crimes such "applicants" have committed, making Israel the BIGGEST criminal hideout in the world.



More of such crap from Thomas Crowne

Coming from a "News portal manager", so hi there Mr. Zion, or is it the "Unassuming White Guy"?

Israel tops the ALL time human rights abuse list, and turned Palestine into a worlds largest ghetto.

I don't have the stomach to read ant more of such nonsense.

Israel is doing the invading, and we are forced to pay the bill with our economy, our future, the future of our children, the lives of our boys and the lives of Arabs.

An interesting post by iqonx though,

"same here i dont buy anything made in israel either."

In US, +/- 90% of grocery store products are labeled with U and Parve. Look it up. Talking about discrimination and taxation with out representation. If I was Muslim for example, and chose not to have my daily food blessed by a Rabbi and collect taxes for doing so, I would have to live on my own farm, grow my own garden and raise my own live stock. I'm not a Muslim, yet I'm forced to pay taxes to Israel not only out my taxes, but also out of taxation of the food I eat.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 11:13 PM
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The first point is, you still haven't given a reasonable justification for Israeli military invasion over a neighbouring country's public jurisdiction facility belonging to a foreign government.

OF COURSE the three Palestinian guards opened fire!!! A foreign army rolled in with armed bulldozers and tanks and Apache helicopters rushing a public facility that is located IN THEIR RIGHTFUL NATIONAL SOIL for christ's sake. You expect them to give a warm welcome to your troops with flowers ringing down and dancing to the Hatikva? The three did the most patriotic contributions to their country and people, die defending Palestine against the international infamous Israeli military brutality and sacraficed bravely for the cause of Palestinian liberation.

From 2000 onwards according to UN approximation figures, 1700+ non-militant Palestinians alone were killed by Israelis, intentionally or unintentionally, during military operations. Care to explain this?




[edit on 19-3-2006 by EarthUnificationFrontier]



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 11:51 PM
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"One's terrorist is another's freedom fighter."

When looked for the action and reaction here, Palestinian liberation movement, or according to you terrorism, would never have existed if not for the emergeance of Israel.

No Israel = No Terrorism

And now you are fighting against something that you brought upon on yourselves, how ironic.



posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 03:15 AM
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Malichai,



Israels existance is under greater threat because of the occupation. They gain nothing other than the land they take. You try to create a dichotomy where the only result can be the destruction of one or another. I believe that there can be another solution to the problems.

Israel's existance was under great threat even before 'occupation' (1967). If you read up on history of the conflict there were always aggressions against Israel even before the West Bank and Gaza were in Israeli hands. A dichotomy always existed. Unlike what the Arabs say there were always the Muslims and the Jews, the Muslims and the Christians, the Arabs and the non-Arabs. When Jews were under Muslim rule things were relatively quiet because of the nature of the Jews. Muslims under Jewish rule is unacceptable to the Muslims because of their superiority complex. Muslims claim that under Ottoman rule all 'people of the book' had freedom of religion. This is true in a very limited way. Under Israeli rule though all religions have freedom of religion even those who are not 'people of the book' (polythiests).
I truely hope a solution is found although I highly doubt it.



I know that asking you to imagine yourself in their position is not going to do any good, but I will say that because you cannot do this you will not understand why Israel faces this conflict. Your sympathies lie in one side, and all your energies are expended demonizing the other side.

You are wrong here. In my university days in the states I met up with Palestinians and Arabs on many occasions. We discussed politics, we went out to bars and tried to get to know each other. Hell I nearly went out with a Palestinian girl. Moreover, I was aquainted with someone who is now affiliated with Hamas. I know their grieviances and of their problems. But when you keep yourself updated in politics and current events and then put things on a balance you come to the realization that it is a game of survival. The Palestinian leadership sees it as an all-or nothing deal. Their stance means the annhilation of Israel through peace. That is unacceptable.



I am afaid that if Israel does not offer a solution soon the results will not favor them in the future.


I see it in the opposite light, Israel tried the the OSLO accords which was a huge failure because of the consistent violation of the agreements by the Palestinians, this was a huge gesture by Israel towards the Palestinians and it created a terrorist state with a greater capablity to hurt Israel. Statistcally more Israelis were killed as a direct result of Oslo then before hand. This is something that the Israeli left is hiding. Palestinians under OSLO had self-rule and violated Israeli trust by inciting towards maryrdom against Israel instead of teaching their populace to be peaceful and good neighbors. Palestinians did not make an attempt to quell terrorism but instead established a terrorist infrastructure with their government institutions.
I think that the solution is in the hands of the Palestinians. If they stop their insistance on destroying Israel then a solution will be found, until then there is little that can be doen exept for unilateral moves by Israel to decide on the Israeli and Palestinian borders. Under this situation only Palestinians will loose.



Hamas has offered a ceasefire in exchange for an Israeli withdraw. While it may not be everything Israel wants it is a place to begin discussions.


Hamas reversed that offer since and does not recognize Israel. It offers Israel to relinquish a vast amount of land BEFORE any peace will agreement will be forthcoming. That is giving something for nothing. The Peace proposed by HAMAS under their original statement (which was since reversed) was a staged peace. Staged means depending on future concessions. What additional concessions could there be past giving them all the territories, Israeli land? Allowing Palestinians hostile to Israel repopulate Israel in masses?
Palestinian ambitions are clear and therefore unacceptable.

Again I say the ball is in the Palestinian court. Yesterday the Hamas government was formed. It is up to them if a solution can be reached. If they abandon their 'destroy Israel' policy the Palestinian people will enjoy a better life. So will Israelis but what is definite is that the improvement of the standard of living on the Palestinian side will be MUCH larger.



posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by iqonx
same thing can be said about israeli deaths eveyrbody in israel has to serve in the millitry how do we know the people who are killed arnt reserve soldiers who are with out and about in civillians clothing becuase they just finished there days worth of millitry duty and they decided to go out to a night club? fact is israel is very devious in the way it describes the people that die it always says for example 7 womeen and 5 men where killed but what it doesnt say is if those people where civillains or reserve soldiers on a break.

i remeber i think a while back a suicide bomb was detonated near a bus stop and some guy from the israeli government was on the media and he said an israeli women was kille dby a sucide bomb and that was an act of terrorism but what was later revealed as the story progressed and more information came forward and leaked out to the internation media was that woman was actually on her way to the millitry base and was a reserve soldier and i have no doubt that he knew thats why he carefully used those words to describe her. and this is what is devious about israel they always try to pass on there reserve soldiers as civillians when ever they can while trying to pass of all palestinains as terrorists or human shields.


I understand your untrusting attitude. Politicians tend to twist things at times. Do you think Israel does this solely? I have researched palestinian claims of attrocities and found that they have not 'twisted things around' but blatantly lied.

Moreover, from what you say you justify bombing of civilian targets under the pretext that there may be a soldier on leave in that location, just as their may be children, foreigners, tourists and Arabs as well. There is no justification for this!
The definition for terrorism is simple:
If you violently target civilians as a policy to obtain a political goal you are a terrorist. A freedom fighter is one who targets the military while taking steps to minimize civilian losses.
Islamic terrorism is the lowest type of terrorism there is since the choose to maximize civilian casualties. It protrays the lowest ethical level and, in turn, says something about them as a culture. I am not saying that all Muslims are like this but it is clear that is consists of a large proportion of them.



posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 04:26 AM
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EarthUnificationFrontier,
You know that your mentality that says:


No Israel = No Terrorism

Is very primitive in nature and is the root of world problems. This is scapegoating! Do you honestly think that no terrorism would exist if Israel did not exist?
Did Arab terrorism exist prior to Israel's establishment in 1948? Yes.
Why did Arabs find it so hard to accept the Partition Plan? Israel would have been created on a land that was 60% Jewish 40% Muslim. The land would have been miniscule. Arabs wished to rule OVER the Jews. A Jewish state was inconceivable and an insult to Arab nationalism and Islam.

Equally I can say:
"No Arabs no Terrorism"
I think my arguement would be more relevant since it is the Palestinians instigating terrorism. Israel as a victim cannot be blamed. It is like blaming an abused wife for her husbands abuse.

Do American Indians blow up buses in the US because of occupation? Do Australian Aboriginies do the same? Did the Indians do the same to the British? The answer to this is obviously NO.



Do you see your arguement disintegrating before your very eyes?


[edit on 20/3/06 by JudahMaccabbi]




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