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How do you prove a negative?

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posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 12:42 PM
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MrNECROS

I just called the Grand Lodge of North Carolina to confirm the following infrromation.

The records are open to anyone who wishes to resurch the membership records, during normal business hours. In otherwords any one who wishes can go to the Grand Lodge of North Carolina and resurch to see who is or was a mason in N.C.

They do not sell a "mailing list" under any circumstances, this is to protect the membership for beigh inondated with junk mail. But anyone is welcome to visit and check out the records.

So much for secrate membership.




posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 12:03 AM
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...however the highest ranking and influential officers in any particular body will belong to higher lodges and they will co-ordinate the works of their various lodges to serve a higher purpose, that is the whole purpose of Freemasonry (See Morals & Dogma again - it has extensive detail in regards to this)


As far as I understand it, (in the United States), the highest ranking officers for a jurisdiction are the officers in a Grand Lodge. I have done a search and found no requirement for a Grand Lodge officer to be a member of either appendant body, (York Rite or Scottish Rite), to hold such an office.
As that is the case, it would appear that no other degree other than that of Master Mason is required to hold the office of Grand Master of Masons in a United States jurisdiction. (Therefore no membership in a "higher lodge" is required.) Since the York Rite and Scottish Rites are subordinate to the Grand Lodge in the United States, (i.e. being expelled by a Grand Lodge will also terminate membership in either the York Rite or Scottish Rite), the "higher lodge" statement would appear on the face of it, to be incorrect.

As for Albert Pike; while many members of the Masonic fraternity acknowledge that Morals And Dogma was an influential work, it is not a a definative and authoritative statement of the philosophy of Freemasonry. It is the work of one brother. Any member of the fraternity today could publish a work of similar size and scope, and it would remain the work of one brother not the entire fraternity.



posted on Dec, 8 2005 @ 01:45 AM
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Fallout Shelter

I did not mean to ignore your post. Life for me is somewhat chaotic right now. Please let me go through your post and respond to the salient points.




First, a Christian does not look at good works as a sign in and of itself.
Actually, as a Christian you are supposed to do good works in the deepest of
secrecy so no one knows about them. The Bible even goes so far as to say that even an
evil man is every bit as capable of doing good works, especially when it is for something
or someone that he loves. So this is not much of a measure of anything, besides it has
been argued that the money that they actually give to charity is such a small portion of
the whole that they should really not bring it up as much as they do.


I read somewhere that the Masonic fraternity gives roughly two million dollars a day. If Freemasonry were bent on world domination, would it not make more sense to divert that money to furthering that aim?



I personally do not see that there is any human
group that steers this world, but rather Satan who is the prince of this world.
Now you can give those that are in power and being manipulated by Satan any name you want,
but as far as them needing to have somewhere to meet or some organization to belong to, I
just don’t see the need.


I find this to be a thorny point to address. First, one must accept the following premises:

1. There is a Satan.

2. Satan is the prince of this world

3. Persons in power are being manipulated by Satan.

4. These persons need a place to meet.

[By inference ~ which may be a misunderstanding on my part]

5. (?) Freemasonry is a place where persons in power who are being manipulated by Satan meet.

Each one of these premises could be a thread of its' own. (Which I would enjoy participating in with you.) For now, I would respond that based on empirical evidence there does not appear to be a malevolent core in Freemasonry that is directing the membership toward an evil objective. If you disagree with this, please post examples so they can be examined.



Why this relates to masonry is that I believe that this Pagan symbolism and ritual
is what gets you all in hot water with the fundamentalists to begin with. I know it’s
the reason I cannot join. Since it’s against your oaths to discuss it, then you have
everyone stuck in a catch 22. The fundamentalists are going to keep calling you
Satanists and Luciferians, and you cannot defend it other then to lie and deny
you do this or that, which we know you do. It is apparent to everyone that looks
into masonry that it is rife with Occult, Pagan ritual and symbolism.


The one sure way to end a philisophical argument is to say: "I don't believe it". Beliefs are a set of premises. I have always found it tremendously difficult to discuss a premise founded on religious belief because I have no wish to offend my partner in such a discussion.

I would ask that you cite specific "lies" and "denials" so they can be examined. To address your statement at the end of the above quote concerning occult symbolism: one symbol may mean different things depending on the frame of reference of the person beholding the symbol.
A horizontal bar (-) bisecting a perpendicular bar (|) resulting in the symbol + can represent the letter 't', a cross, or the Japanese or Chinese kanji character for the number 10. A symbol may have more than one meaning, so what would be considered an "occult" symbol for one may have a completely different meaning to another.

Other portions of your post have been responded to by other members, so I will not address them here. If you believe I have left something out you would like me to address. Please let me know.

Since a medium like this lacks the ability to comunicate with "tone of voice" or facial expression, (beyond smileys - which I don't believe can convey the emotions I had while responding), please know that I had no desire to offend or deride, but to respond with as thoughtful an answer as I could at this late hour.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

But we have taken no such oaths, and discuss these things all the time here. The only things we have promised not to divulge are the traditional "secrets", which consist of "modes of recognition", i.e., secret handshakes, passwords, etc., which is how we recognize each other as members of the same fraternity.


Ok yet when I asked in a proceeding thread about whether or not Tubal-Cain was the name for a master mason 3rd degree, you all denied that, yet it is shown pretty widely on the net to be so. This is, according to you, not something that should be covered by your oath, yet there was a definite reluctance to discus it, why?



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
I was going to say exactly the same thing. I have no problem discussing any aspect of freemasonry on these boards, and am happy to do so.


Then I ask that same question as above to you, why the uneasiness over Tubal-Cain?


Originally posted by Trinityman
But many of these are not masonic symbols. Owls and Baphomets do not appear anywhere in freemasonry that I know of, and are certainly not traditional, recognised symbols. There is much misinformation about freemasonry swirling all around us. I can comment exhaustively on what I know about freemasonry but my experience of non-masonic; quasi-masonic or even allegedly-masonic symbolism is more sketchy.


While it is true that the owl is not an openly Masonic symbol, it does appear in the road layout of Washington, which is admittedly laid out with Masonic symbols, and it therefore must be one. It also appears, though very small on the one-dollar bill, which is also loaded with Masonic symbols. Besides Bohemian Grove, which I am aware is not Masonic; I do not know where else this symbol is found. Honestly I would be even less surprised to find it in the Eastern Star, since it is a symbol of Lilith. The Baphomet shows up in the symbol of the order of the Eastern Star, which is the order for Masons wives. I find it fitting that this symbol is part of that order, in as I said it represents copulation between Lilith and her Husband.

Well as to the rest of this quote that I am not including here, I personally do not believe that masons are evil, nor child abusers, or anything like this. I have had friends that are masons, and so was my grandfather, all good men. I just personally believe that there is more to masonry then meets the eye. That there is more hidden in it then even 99% or masons are aware of, and while it may seem like good philosophy, its not Christian Philosophy, and actually quite the opposite. This is the only gripe that I personally have with it. That it tries to pass itself off as being compatible with Christianity and it is not, yet it would lore Christian men in thinking that there is nothing to all the ritual, philosophy, and symbolism.


www.freemasonstore.com...
Arcane Schools
A rare reprint of a masterpiece which demonstrates the antiquity of the Masonic mysteries and their relation to other schools of antiquity by attempting to trace the development of Masonic Ritual back to the medieval stonemasons, and from there to other schools. In his review of this book in the EQUINOX, Aleister Crowley commented that Brother Yarker seems to have read every old Masonic manuscript ever written. This book is the sole source for some obscure bits of Masonic history. Yarker was the head of the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Freemasonry in England, and may have possessed more first-hand knowledge of Masonic rituals than anyone else of his time, including A.E. Waite. A Review of their Origin and Antiquity with a General History of Freemasonry and its relation to the Theosophic, Scientific, and Philosophic Mysteries. Contents: Archaic Legends; Proto-Aryan and Aryan Civilization and Mysteries; Mysteries in Relation to Philosophy; Philosophy in Relation to Masonic Rites; Mystic and Hermetic Schools in Christian Times; Recapitulated Proofs of Ancient Masonry; Masonry in Britain and Saxon England; Masonry in Norman Times and Modern Times; Origin of the system Termed High-Grade; Freemasonry in the Grand Lodge Era; Series of Constitutional Charges.

Obviosly these men felt that there was more to masonry then met the eye as well to do this kind of background research on the subject.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by Cug
Well in the US id guess that 98% of the leaders are members of the same group.. Christians. Does this imply there is something nefarious going on?


Oh, I think that most of those guys CLAIM to be Christians, but I think everyone sees right through that act. The only god most of them worship is themselves and money.


Originally posted by Cug
From my point of view, if masonry was "rife with Occult, Pagan ritual and symbolism" I'd join! But as far as I can tell masonry is rife with Christian teachings, ritual and symbolism and that holds little interest to me. Now these teachings may be on the generic side to allow other one God faiths to participate but they are still Christian based.


I am just curious how you can look at the symbols and not see the occult is far more represented then anything Christian. Even in the OTO thread, there was a misunderstanding between a Mason and an OTO member in which the OTO member assumed that a Mason would understand what 93 meant. If Masonry only taught or even mainly taught Christian doctrine why would an OTO member expect a Mason to understand something dealing with Thelma? He obviously thought that this was a philosophy that is taught to masons.

Considering that the two groups share some common ground, would you consider the OTO compatible for a Christian? How about Masonry?

Perhaps I misunderstood something there myself, we never really finished that thread and I sort of gave up on it, because there was some sort of failure to communicate going on in it.


Originally posted by Cug
Many of the symbols you presented have nothing to do with masonry. Now some of them might be in some of the masonry offshoot orders, and some of them come from places like the bohemian grove that have nothing to do with masonry but that is not the fault of the masons is it?


Right two of the symbols have to do with Lilith, wife to the entity Lucifer, one of the two having to do with a sex act between these two entities. One of these symbols I believe is the main logo for the Order of the Eastern Star, the Masonic wives club. The other seems to show up in designs that were Masonically influenced but I would need to research further.

That is not to mention the many other hotly debated symbols that have been repeatedly discussed in this forum.



Originally posted by Cug
No I don't
In the middle ages Satanism was a Christian religion. In fact to perform the historical "Black Mass" you had to be a Catholic priest. Now if you say if it doesn't follow my belief system it has to be by default Satanism that is fine and dandy, But it is unfair to say that the other groups think, are aware of, or even believe in Satan. Remember from their point of view you may be the one worshiping whatever their version of the big bad guy is.


But even though some of these deities have changed names over the centuries, can’t they be traced back to their original deity through their symbols, rituals, types of sacrifices, realms of influence, etc?
If Lilith dates back to Jewish mysticism, then so must her husband, that puts the entity of Lucifer centuries earlier then the 1960’s claimed by the masons, correct?



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 03:54 AM
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Originally posted by Traveling_Man
I read somewhere that the Masonic fraternity gives roughly two million dollars a day. If Freemasonry were bent on world domination, would it not make more sense to divert that money to furthering that aim?

And I have read that like 10% of their income goes to these missions, so if it is truly 2 million a day, that means that quite a chunk goes elsewhere. Where does that money go. I am sure though that it is not going to taking over the world, I think that I made that clear in my earlier post.


Originally posted by Traveling_Man
I find this to be a thorny point to address. First, one must accept the following premises:

1. There is a Satan.
2. Satan is the prince of this world
3. Persons in power are being manipulated by Satan.
4. These persons need a place to meet.


This is a misquote, I said that they did not need to meet anyplace. Why would they need to ever meet?


Originally posted by Traveling_Man
[By inference ~ which may be a misunderstanding on my part]
5. (?) Freemasonry is a place where persons in power who are being manipulated by Satan meet.

Each one of these premises could be a thread of its' own. (Which I would enjoy participating in with you.) For now, I would respond that based on empirical evidence there does not appear to be a malevolent core in Freemasonry that is directing the membership toward an evil objective. If you disagree with this, please post examples so they can be examined.


Let me make this a bit clearer, I DO NOT believe that there is a Illuminati per say anymore, I DO NOT believe there is a New World Order (my spell checker will not let me type the initials, keeps making it NOW…LOL). I DO believe that Satan, the devil, whatever you want to call him, influences man through mans own self love, lusts of the flesh and the world, to do his bidding, including hurting other men, and this world. This happens without any organization and as sin is the natural state of man its just as easy as pushing people off a log to get them to do his will. However, I am sure that there are groups of men out there that meet to slice up this world into nicer little packages for themselves (worldly lusts) under the name of business, and I am sure that the masons, just as many country clubs around this nation, are where this kind of activity occurs.


Originally posted by Traveling_Man
I would ask that you cite specific "lies" and "denials" so they can be examined.

I can do that but it is going to take me time. Lets start out with the one I sited above though about Tubal-Cain. I consider this to be an important one, and I think that ML knows why I do.


Originally posted by Traveling_Man
To address your statement at the end of the above quote concerning occult symbolism: one symbol may mean different things depending on the frame of reference of the person beholding the symbol.
A horizontal bar (-) bisecting a perpendicular bar (|) resulting in the symbol + can represent the letter 't', a cross, or the Japanese or Chinese kanji character for the number 10. A symbol may have more than one meaning, so what would be considered an "occult" symbol for one may have a completely different meaning to another.


However, there are certain symbols that seem to follow certain entities around, and some of those are now used in masonry. A good example would be the old instance of Baal worship; though it had several names for the entity, it was always traceable by its methods of human sacrifice and the passing of children through the fire.


Originally posted by Traveling_Man
Since a medium like this lacks the ability to comunicate with "tone of voice" or facial expression, (beyond smileys - which I don't believe can convey the emotions I had while responding), please know that I had no desire to offend or deride, but to respond with as thoughtful an answer as I could at this late hour.


Same here, I have no malice toward anyone or any group. Personally there is no axe to grind here, I only come in here for personal enlightenment on the subject, and discussion, but sometimes when they don’t like my answers I have been accused of attacking them. Even then it was never meant to be an attack, but rather I had expected them to answer back as to whether I had hit the mark or not.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 04:11 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Then I ask that same question as above to you, why the uneasiness over Tubal-Cain?

Ask me the question again, defcon5, as I can't track down the original thread.


While it is true that the owl is not an openly Masonic symbol, it does appear in the road layout of Washington, which is admittedly laid out with Masonic symbols, and it therefore must be one.

I don't go along with your logic here at all.
1. The Owl is not a masonic symbol, hidden or open.
2. Whether or not masonic symbols appear in the street layout of Washington is not known. Some people have drawn squiggles on maps to try and show this, but to my mind they have been very unconvincing. The only masonic symbol I have ever seen on one of these illustrative maps is a distorted square and compass, which I can create on any number of other city maps. The pentagram, incidentally, is not by any stretch of the imagination an exclusively masonic symbol.
3. Even if a perfect owl was delineated in the street plan of Washington it would not be evidence one way or the other that is was a masonic symbol.


It also appears, though very small on the one-dollar bill, which is also loaded with Masonic symbols.

What you believe to be an owl most independent observers would conclude is a smudge, or plate fault. Furthermore, there are no exclusively masonic symbols on the dollar bill

Besides Bohemian Grove, which I am aware is not Masonic; I do not know where else this symbol is found.

Have you considered the possibility that this is because it will not be found anywhere else. Certainly not in freemasonry?


The Baphomet shows up in the symbol of the order of the Eastern Star, which is the order for Masons wives.

1. The OES is not freemasonry.
2. Baphomet does not appear to the best of my knowledge in the symbol for the OES. Please show me what you mean.


This is the only gripe that I personally have with it. That it tries to pass itself off as being compatible with Christianity and it is not, yet it would lore Christian men in thinking that there is nothing to all the ritual, philosophy, and symbolism.

I'll answer this with an excerpt from the website of the United Grand Lodge of England.


- Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion.
- It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.
- Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.
- Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion.
- Freemasonry is open to men of all religious faiths. The discussion of religion at its meetings is forbidden.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 05:53 AM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
Ask me the question again, defcon5, as I can't track down the original thread.



The initial question was whether or not Tubal-Cain is the name/title of a Master Mason of the 3rd degree.


Originally posted by Trinityman
I don't go along with your logic here at all.
1. The Owl is not a masonic symbol, hidden or open.
2. Whether or not masonic symbols appear in the street layout of Washington is not known. Some people have drawn squiggles on maps to try and show this, but to my mind they have been very unconvincing. The only masonic symbol I have ever seen on one of these illustrative maps is a distorted square and compass, which I can create on any number of other city maps. The pentagram, incidentally, is not by any stretch of the imagination an exclusively masonic symbol.
3. Even if a perfect owl was delineated in the street plan of Washington it would not be evidence one way or the other that is was a masonic symbol.


I apologize I thought it was a known fact that the streets and most of the monuments were laid out that way on purpose. I seem to recall hearing that on the tour of the town I took when I was younger. Maybe I just misunderstood and that is still in dispute. Same with the dollar bill, again I thought this was a known fact, there must be a factual history to why certain symbols were used in the monuments, street layout, and money layout, I guess I will have to go and see if I can find it.

As far as the owl, google it up there are tons of pics of it, even on this site, it is defiantly an owl. It is sitting on the top of the compass that surrounds the mall in DC.


Originally posted by Trinityman
Have you considered the possibility that this is because it will not be found anywhere else. Certainly not in freemasonry?


Well since the capital building has been around longer then the Bohimian Grove in its current form, where did the owl symbol come from?


Originally posted by Trinityman
1. The OES is not freemasonry.
2. Baphomet does not appear to the best of my knowledge in the symbol for the OES. Please show me what you mean.

It is only open to masons and their wives and families though, I checked the admission rules last night on their main website. The Baphomet is the upside down five pointed star, the one that a goats head would fit inside of with the horns pointing up, the ears pointing out and the nose down. This is their main symbol, an upside down pentagram.


Originally posted by Trinityman
- Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion.
- It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.
- Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.
- Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion.
- Freemasonry is open to men of all religious faiths. The discussion of religion at its meetings is forbidden.


You know I don’t know whether to consider it a religion or not, but it does have morality plays that you have to display in order to advance in rank. There are times I think that it is more of a recruiting ground for those that have the aptitude to move on to over things that are more religious. Even Masonic Light here has mentioned that it is based on Cabala, Hermiticism, and Gnosticism and according to the OTO thread it appears to have some relation to Thelma as well. Since those are all religions, philosophies or forms of magic ritual, then what exactly is it?



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5


The initial question was whether or not Tubal-Cain is the name/title of a Master Mason of the 3rd degree.


I don't know exactly what you read on the Internet; if it was a purported ritual, it was probably generally accurate, if that's what you mean.



Even Masonic Light here has mentioned that it is based on Cabala, Hermiticism, and Gnosticism and according to the OTO thread it appears to have some relation to Thelma as well. Since those are all religions, philosophies or forms of magic ritual, then what exactly is it?


I do not believe that Freemasonry is based on Gnosticism, nor that Gnostic teachings have anything to do with Masonry. I don't believe it is based on the Kabalah either, but I would say that elements from the Kabalah seem to have been borrowed.



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
The initial question was whether or not Tubal-Cain is the name/title of a Master Mason of the 3rd degree.

Not in my ritual/jurisdiction, defcon5. I have to put the usual disclaimer that I can't speak for other rituals/jurisdictions but based on my knowledge of them to date I would think it unlikely.


I apologize I thought it was a known fact that the streets and most of the monuments were laid out that way on purpose. I seem to recall hearing that on the tour of the town I took when I was younger. Maybe I just misunderstood and that is still in dispute.

Please don't apologize. Many people believe this to be stated fact due to the great interest in this topic, and it's certainly a possibility, but I believe no more than that.


Same with the dollar bill, again I thought this was a known fact...

I think again its assumed, because of the number of masons involved in the independence movement in the US, and the use of the all-seeing eye in freemasonry. But the all-seeing eye is widely used outside of freemasonry as well so it can't be said to be masonic in this context with any certainty. The official line from the Treasury is that it isn't. The apparent appearance of the work MASON is pure conjecture.

Films like National Treasure feed the myth, but I think the bottom line is that if masonic symbols are in the streets of DC and on the currency... so what? I'm not sure really that it means anything one way or the other. Just my opinion, mind you...


As far as the owl, google it up there are tons of pics of it, even on this site, it is defiantly an owl. It is sitting on the top of the compass that surrounds the mall in DC.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about an owl in the street pattern. Is there any official explanation? Really, it isn't a masonic symbol, honestly.


The Baphomet is the upside down five pointed star, the one that a goats head would fit inside of with the horns pointing up, the ears pointing out and the nose down. This is their main symbol, an upside down pentagram.

I think connecting a pentagram with a goats head is a bit of a stretch, given that there is no connection between the substance of OES and all that the Baphomet represents. Making this connection would mean that there are three Baphomets on the elephant symbol of the GOP, for example.

How do we know which way is up, anyway?


You know I don’t know whether to consider it a religion or not... (snip) Since those are all religions, philosophies or forms of magic ritual, then what exactly is it?

A fraternity that requires a belief in a Supreme Being to join. In other words a club in which to be a member you have to have a pre-existing faith.

The reason for this most often given is that the moral lessons are derived from God's authority. If you don't believe in God then the moral lessons will have no meaning. As freemasons all believe that God is the source of all goodness, and consequently morality, it would be right and proper to listen to what He has to say on the matter.

Christian freemasons will scurry back to the Bible for guidance, Muslim freemasons will consult the Qu'ran, etc etc. It's worth noting that this is why satanists/luciferians or people who worship an evil god can't join freemasonry, their 'gods' do not espouse morality in the same way and they would be fundamentally at odds with the organization. But I digress.

I wouldn't contest that freemasonry has religious aspects to it - we say prayers in lodge for example. Neither would I deny that for some people it is their 'religion' (small r) in the same way that Football is a religion to some people. But it clearly doesn't fit into the same category as a Religion (large R) for all the reasons I have previously given.


Cug

posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5

Oh, I think that most of those guys CLAIM to be Christians, but I think everyone sees right through that act. The only god most of them worship is themselves and money.


In the post before this one, you quoted a description of John Yarkers book "Arcane Schools". Now Yarker was Kicked out of Freemasonry for promoting some non-masonic rites. (and from my understanding there was some real "hate" going on at that time about Yarker) So what we have here is someone who "CLAIMS" to be a mason but isn't (At least when he wrote the book). Remember when moonchild first started posting? He is a member of one of the irregular masonic groups (in fact one of Yarkers), do you recall how hard he got jumped? Does it look like the Masons support his order or it's teachings? Not to me.



I am just curious how you can look at the symbols and not see the occult is far more represented then anything Christian. Even in the OTO thread, there was a misunderstanding between a Mason and an OTO member in which the OTO member assumed that a Mason would understand what 93 meant. If Masonry only taught or even mainly taught Christian doctrine why would an OTO member expect a Mason to understand something dealing with Thelma? He obviously thought that this was a philosophy that is taught to masons.


You might want to reread the O.T.O. thread. I just checked and I said 93 to the O.T.O. guy, he said 93 back. then the mason in question asked what 93 was. In one of the responses things were worded badly and the mason thought that he was expected to know what it meant.

re the occult. All I can say is I have surrounded myself with occult symbols for almost 20 years now (ACK!!! Damn I feel old! or was that from shoveling 9 inches of snow this morning?) And I don't see that many occult symbols in Masonry. Now there are things in Masonry that are related to mysticism but mysticism is not = occult really. The occult uses mysticism but mysticism also stands by it's self.



Considering that the two groups share some common ground, would you consider the OTO compatible for a Christian? How about Masonry?


OK the O.T.O. is open to all to the 3th degree, but in actuality I can't see why any Christian would want to join. He would see stuff like this line in Liber Al (Our "Bible") pretty quick 3:51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross. I don't know about you but I don't think a Christian would hang around after reading that.
So no I don't think that the O.T.O. is in any way compatible with the Christian faith. I don't see a problem with Masonry and Christians.



Perhaps I misunderstood something there myself, we never really finished that thread and I sort of gave up on it, because there was some sort of failure to communicate going on in it.


Well start a new thread.



If Lilith dates back to Jewish mysticism, then so must her husband, that puts the entity of Lucifer centuries earlier then the 1960’s claimed by the masons, correct?


In the middle age Jewish texts Adam was Lilith's Husband. See below.


The Alphabet of Ben Sira Question #5
After God created Adam, who was alone, He said, 'It is not good for man to be alone' (Gen. 2:18). He then created a woman for Adam, from the earth, as He had created Adam himself, and called her Lilith. Adam and Lilith began to fight. She said, 'I will not lie below,' and he said, 'I will not lie beneath you, but only on top. For you are fit only to be in the bottom position, while am to be in the superior one.' Lilith responded, 'We are equal to each other inasmuch as we were both created from the earth.' But they would not listen to one another. When Lilith saw this, she pronounced the Ineffable Name and flew away into the air.




The initial question was whether or not Tubal-Cain is the name/title of a Master Mason of the 3rd degree.


Looking at the rituals posted earlier, Tubal-Cain is the password of the 3rd in Nevada, and not the name/title. But who knows how accurate this information is? Well outs side of master masons and They are not going to confirm or deny it as it is one of the modes of recognition they want to keep secret.



Even Masonic Light here has mentioned that it is based on Cabala, Hermiticism, and Gnosticism and according to the OTO thread it appears to have some relation to Thelma as well.


I can promise you that Thelema has nothing at all to do with Masonry. And the only connection the O.T.O. is way back when it started as one of the off-shoot or irregular masonry orders, but it has changed over time and really is it's own thing now.

[edit on 12/9/2005 by Cug]


Cug

posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 01:59 PM
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Whoops hit quote instead of edit!

[edit on 12/9/2005 by Cug]



posted on Dec, 9 2005 @ 09:12 PM
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Fallout Shelter:

Ooops. I keyed on this in one of your posts:




Now you can give those that are in power and being manipulated by Satan any name you want, but as far as them needing to have somewhere to meet or some organization to belong to, I just don’t see the need.


I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

As to Tubal Cain: I am not a Master Mason so I simply do not know.

As I side note, I thought it interesting that TrinityMan answered that it was not *in his jurisdiction* was telling in that it showed that Freemasonry is not a monolithic institution.

To address your point on symbolism; correct me if I'm wrong, but there were decorations in early Christian tombs that were adapted to convey a Christian message. A Pagan at the time would think nothing of it, but to the Christian, it carried an"occult" (hidden) meanings.

I was wondering if you had evidence of pagan, ("Baal" worship - although I think "Baal" was a Hebrew term meaning "Lord" and a generic name for non-Hebrew dieties), I'm not aware of such continuity. (But if you could point me to some sources I' love to follow it up!)

I will admit I've had a difficult week. Someone I care about had to go to the ER twice. If I missed anything in your post, let me know and I promise you I will give you a candid answer.



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