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in search for new programming languages

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posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 12:35 PM
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I recently read an article on how programming languages have kept computing restrained due to their inefficiency at tackling things such as parallel, string programming among others.

Has anyone heard of any new kind of programming language initiatives?




posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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Yeah. Self-directed programming algorithims using an expert system to write most of the code autonomously. Basically Artificial Intelligence. Circuits seem to be moving towards this rout as well. Scripting languages will still need to be learned and utilised by human programmers at least at first but eventually I don't see why the whole process can't become automated. It's proven it's value in several cases, some pieces of code written by these "Expert Systems" are so efficient at what they do and the AI programmers don't have any idea how it works. They have even been able to do this with Pop Music, I believe that song by Spears named "Toxic" was written by an Expert system, I'll try to find the article in Wired's archive.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 01:01 PM
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Hmmm.. that's very interesting, if you can find out more about this new programming then I'm interested.

I remember reading an article about a new game made by that Sid Mier guy (I think the did the Civilization series) and I belive he may be using this new form of programming to make a new game.. let me look for the link to that story.

[Ach I can't find it.. sorry guys. However I would like to say that this kind of programming could really revolutionize the video game industry, wich is plauged with poor programming. Not to mention due to the ever increasing quality demand for games more and more money costs to make them, wich in turn makes us the customer pay more. Not to mention the more money a game costs the less risk producers and investers are willing to make on a new game and so the quality and originality is decreased.]



[edit on 5-12-2005 by cownosecat]



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 01:09 PM
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I remember reading an article about a new game made by that Sid Mier guy (I think the did the Civilization series) and I belive he may be using this new form of programming to make a new game.. let me look for the link to that story.


It wasn't Sid's project it is Will Wrights and it's called Spore and it uses Evolutionary Alogrithims liberally.

spore.ea.com...

All though I believe they craft the algorithms themselves and not machines.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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Toxic made by a computer that is so mind blowing...

I guess human popstars have their days number...

In 10 years the computer will create the singer of the month and create its music...

So is this new AI benefit from a specific processor type (scalar, vector, parallel?) or in order to tackle its potential you need a new kind of processor.

I read that an optical computer is in the works but that memory has kept it from becoming a reality...



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by carcharodon
I recently read an article on how programming languages have kept computing restrained due to their inefficiency at tackling things such as parallel, string programming among others.

Has anyone heard of any new kind of programming language initiatives?


I'll admit that I'm probably very much out of the loop as far as this goes, but I've never heard of any programming language causing any problems like this. Most modern programming languages do have support for running parallel processes--aka threads, unless I'm really misinterpreting something--and if string handling isn't built in to the language specifically, the language is generally packaged with an extensive string processing library.

Unless I'm really missing the point here--and please let me know if I am--I would think any problems that are holding computing back are on the hardware end, and even most of those roadblocks are breaking down. Other than that, it's just a programmer's ability to use the language they have that keeps things held down.

The expert system code generators are a new one on me. I've used plenty of code generators, but they're all template based. I would imagine an expert system code generator would be similar: input the type of code you need generated, along with certain specifics, and it creates the necessary code ready to build (or tweak as the case may be.)

I still have a feeling I missed a hell of a lot in reading through these posts though...am I totally off base?



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 03:35 PM
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the thing is that current languages require a lots of effort to program parallel or string codes and because of its complexity it is often scraped in favour of traditional code.

The thing is not that is not possible but that it is very difficult and time consuming thus making it rare. Also because it is not use often comp systems and not optimised for them.

The topic aim is to find out if there are new programming languages that not date back to 30 years ago and that address these problems.

Im going to try and find some articles about it


[edit on 5-12-2005 by carcharodon]



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by carcharodon
the thing is that current languages require a lots of effort to program parallel or string codes and because of its complexity it is often scraped in favour of traditional code.

The thing is not that is not possible but that it is very difficult and time consuming thus making it rare. Also because it is not use often comp systems and not optimised for them.

The topic aim is to find out if there are new programming languages that not date back to 30 years ago and that address these problems.

Im going to try and find some articles about it



C# and Java do a fairly good job of handling both tasks. Granted, the resultant code isn't great as efficient as straight C, but when you're going for ease-of-coding you almost always sacrifice speed and/or memory. Just the nature of the beast.

Multi-threaded programming is generally pretty easy. Regardless of the language, you generally write the code that's being executed in the child thread (whether it's an object or a function callback), you write a few lines to start the thread, and you write a few lines to clean up once the thread's done (if you need to, that is.) Look into C# or Java, and if neither of those tickle your fancy look into libraries for the language you prefer.

Unless you're working with a multi-processor system, you won't find any hardware that's "optimized" for multithreading. No matter what OS you're working with, on a single processor each thread only gets a certain amount of time to process, then it's blocked while the next thread gets to work. This happens extremely fast, which is why you're email can be checked while you're typing a post, but it's still blocking.

Just curious, but by "string codes" are you referring to character strings, or is this a term I've missed out on?



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 07:27 PM
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Well, im currently learning to program in C. Does this mean i should stop ad not pursue a degree in this area of computers since it will be done by computers soon??

If not im having trouble with an encryption assignment.If anyone versed in C programming can help me a bit that would be awesome!



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by Uber Fr0g
Well, im currently learning to program in C. Does this mean i should stop ad not pursue a degree in this area of computers since it will be done by computers soon??


C and C++ are the tools of the trade if you are serious about making a program that kicks butt. How do I know? Well I'm a professional software developer and I'll use C++ anytime it's possible. The Windows operating system is written in C, most of the graphic tools needed to make high-end video games are written in C. Sure they call it Open GL and DirectX, but the language is C. If you want a job where you're not worried about being obsolete, learn C.

On the topic, yes C++ is daunting to many, but like any tool that holds great potential, you have to spend time using it. Let's take for example Adobe Photoshop. Would the program be more useful if it had less tools and did more things for you? No, I think you would find it nice at times but as a whole you'd end up griping about the lack of tools and how you just wanted to remove an eyelash and not the whole eye.

Computing is restricted by hardware. There's no way that anything out there can match the human mind. That's what software is, a persons thoughts on how the computer should behave. We spend much of our time writing code that is gentle on the hardware. "O we better cache that value instead of making that calculation again", or "check the CPU usage before spawning another thread because it might be maxed out." or "Better write that data to disk so we don't run out of RAM."

Anytime new hardware becomes available people make more complex software to use what's out there. For those that think it's just sloppy programming, then look at the difference between the graphics on games a couple years ago and what's out there today. The real gauntlet is thrown down to the hardware engineers. "If you build it, they (programmers) will come."



If not im having trouble with an encryption assignment.If anyone versed in C programming can help me a bit that would be awesome!


Post your problem it in the Computer Help forum and send me a U2U if no one replies. There are lots of uber-nerds hanging out around here.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by dbates
C and C++ are the tools of the trade if you are serious about making a program that kicks butt. How do I know? Well I'm a professional software developer and I'll use C++ anytime it's possible. The Windows operating system is written in C, most of the graphic tools needed to make high-end video games are written in C. Sure they call it Open GL and DirectX, but the language is C. If you want a job where you're not worried about being obsolete, learn C.


If I might add my two cents again, MS seems to be pushing the .NET framework quite a bit. C/C++ aren't going to be obsolete anytime soon--not by a long shot, even if they weren't incorporated in the framework--but you won't see anywhere near the performance gains in using Managed C++ vs. C# (or VB.NET I believe as well--I still haven't succumbed to trying that out...) If Windows goes full .NET for running executables, there may even be a performance hit for not using managed code by dealing with the security layers. I know the new version of DirectX is managed; if I understand correctly it's just as fast working with it from C# as using older versions of DX with C++.

Of course, real coders develop in Assembly for Linux anyways




On the topic, yes C++ is daunting to many, but like any tool that holds great potential, you have to spend time using it. Let's take for example Adobe Photoshop. Would the program be more useful if it had less tools and did more things for you? No, I think you would find it nice at times but as a whole you'd end up griping about the lack of tools and how you just wanted to remove an eyelash and not the whole eye.


Amen. I use (in case no one could tell) Visual Studio .NET 2K3, and even as robust as it is there's tons of things I still prefer to do by hand. ASP.NET pages in particular: I prefer rolling my own data grid layout to using the built in one, mainly because I prefer using my own data connection scheme to ADO.NET. Granted, that's mainly because MySQL support is minimal in .NET and that's my primary database, but even the couple of times I've used SQL Server I found it more appropriate to do some things by hand.

I'd also like to add that no matter what the programming language is, stupid is still as stupid does. You could have two graphics processing programs, one written in Java and one written in assembly. If the Java algorithm is better than the assembly algorithm, Java will blow it away. A good language will never compensate for a stupid coder. I say this from experience


Edit To Add:
Even though I've probably taken up too much bandwidth on this thread, I have one more thing to say. It doesn't matter what language or environment you use, just find one you're comfortable with and learn it inside out. Someone who's good at VBA (MS Office scripting) is more valuable than someone who can do a "Hello World" in 30 different languages.

Even better, don't worry about a particular language. Learn the different programming concepts--data types, sorting, searching, etc. Even though most of that stuff seems obsolete, if you know the principle behind a stack or a linked list, you can apply it to whatever language you're forced to use. It also makes it easier to think outside of the box if you know the theory behind everything instead of just how to use a class library someone else wrote for some other project.

Okay, I think I'm done now...

[edit on 12/5/2005 by MCory1]



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by MCory1
Of course, real coders develop in Assembly for Linux anyways



No, those aren't coders, they are freaks working on things like NASA programs. "Oh! I squeezed two more instructions into this byte. I think I'll take a break and go flash a bios and get another can of Mt. Dew. Then I'll continue my argument on how doing a shift of the ex register and saving the result in bx for later is faster than prefetching the instruction since the instructions takes 3 cycles to complete."

People like that think that DEBUG is a high-level program.

(If you know what DEBUG is and how to use it then you're a nerd)


[edit on 5-12-2005 by dbates]



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by dbates
People like that think that DEBUG is a high-level program.

(If you know what DEBUG is and how to use it then you're a nerd)


Hmmm....do you have to be proficient with it, or does just executing a few instructions count?



posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by MCory1
Of course, real coders develop in Assembly for Linux anyways



No, those aren't coders, they are freaks working on things like NASA programs. "Oh! I squeezed two more instructions into this byte. I think I'll take a break and go flash a bios and get another can of Mt. Dew. Then I'll continue my argument on how doing a shift of the ex register and saving the result in bx for later is faster than prefetching the instruction since the instructions takes 3 cycles to complete."

People like that think that DEBUG is a high-level program.

(If you know what DEBUG is and how to use it then you're a nerd)


I feel so old... and nerdly. I remember the day of 4k memory spaces when we flashed the bios and optimized the space. And yes (sigh) I know how to use debug and still know what '0D 0A' signals. I still command-line telnet and directory searches.

I feel positively decrepit.

Returning to the topic, there are actually a number of artificial languages, some of which relate to computer programming. But, as others have said, they all rely on the basic instructions on the chip and to date that's been constrained by heat, size, and the fact that you have only two states (on or off) to the switches and only certain functions at that level.



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 06:55 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd
I feel so old... and nerdly. I remember the day of 4k memory spaces when we flashed the bios and optimized the space. And yes (sigh) I know how to use debug and still know what '0D 0A' signals. I still command-line telnet and directory searches.


Old? I was doing this 4 years ago! Writing C for 4K Motorola PICs. I can tell you that i=j=1; takes up about 4 times as much space as i=1;j=1;

Havig said that we once flashed a PIC with the terminals the wrong way round and it blew like a gunshot leaving a 1cm crater in the top of the housing!

The mention of a lack of string programming languages was made at the top of this thread. What about PERL?



posted on Dec, 7 2005 @ 07:15 PM
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More than a lack of string programming is a lack of simpler programmming languages.

I guess you can compare a mac GUI to common UNIX terminal, they are the same thing however they look very much different.

If I recall correctly the Be OS required string programming and that one of ots downfalls was that not many people were willing to program like that even though the system was extremely fast.



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:25 AM
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If you ask me...every one convert to OpenGL and C++...much easier



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by JPulham
If you ask me...every one convert to OpenGL and C++...much easier


OpenGL is only for graphics--particularly 3D, but if you want an overkill you can do 2D as well I believe--and isn't restricted to just C++. If you're looking for ease, go with something like VB. Just don't take it too personally when C/C++ coders laugh at you



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 08:23 PM
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Yes that is right you can use Open Gl to handle any kind of graphics.

Long use only by SGI computers who relied on a combination of Open Gl and hardware to handle their graphics.

Autodesk Media and Entertainment formerly Discreet Logic still uses the SGI subsystem to handle their compositing and editing software task through Open GL and most of their work is 2d.

With the new cards from ATI and Nvidia some other programs have started to use it to handle effects in real time, Motion from Apple uses Open Gl and hardware acceleration to work in realtime



posted on Dec, 15 2005 @ 09:47 PM
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here are some of the recent programming languages:

Visual basic, the .NETs, Python, Ruby, Brain#, PERL, C, C++, C#, Assembly, Coldfusion, LISP, PHP, Pascal, Campbell, COBOL, ABAP, Java, Delphi, and SQL...

or at least the ones I'm familiar with lol Happy huntin




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