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WAR: Rice Criticizes Europe Over Secret Prisons Complaints

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posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 01:54 PM
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Here's a link to the Alliance Base which deltaboy is talking about. This is from a washington Post article.

Who would have thought the French would be inplicit in this CIA funded centre by it's location in Paris?




posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
I don't understand why people automatically assume that people are being tortured there. Even some people claiming to have been detainees at these sites don't say that they were abused:



Three Yemeni nationals who were arrested in late 2003 say they were transferred to U.S. custody and kept isolated in at least four secret detention facilities that Amnesty International officials believe could be part of a covert CIA prison system.

The three detainees have not said they were physically abused while in U.S. custody, but they describe being whisked away in airplanes to unknown locations where they were interrogated by Americans in civilian clothes, according to an Amnesty International report. At one prison, the detainees were guarded by people in all-black "ninja" suits, who communicated using hand gestures.


Washington Post



That's just one article from 2003. We do not even know if they were transfered to Eastern Europe, or a country that approves of and allows torture methods to be used on it's soil.




Washington Post
"We've tried working out where they might have been, but it's so subjective,"


See? How is this relevant, and I hope it's not all you've got in your defence of this whole thing.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
They GAVE them permission?
Why are then the Germans and Italians filing Charges against CIA agents?
IF the goverments gave the CIA permissions, they would not do that.
I wonder how it would make You feel, if France had Secret Prisons in USA - somewhere in Alaska, and that they would kidnap American citizens from their Homes and fly them around in charter aircraft.

As far as Secret prisons on US soil - do you have any Information about them?


Germany and Italy are filing charges because they do not have these bases in their countries. The secret prisons are in Eastern Europe. Not Germany or Italy. And I have no doubts that with Anti Muslim sentiment what it is in the east, there was plenty of permission and cooperation.

There are numerous threads on this very site about secret US prisons for the detainees.

And your example is incorrect. We are not abducting eastern Europeans and imprisoning them in their countries. They are shuttling persons who have been captured on the battlefields or with certain ties and such. They are not simply grabbing people in the middle of the night from their homes for #s and giggles.

I am niether condoning nor opposing the existance of secret prisons until I have Firm confirmation they exist. I simply want the facts to get straight.

And if it is true, I am not surprised. The CIA has done FAR worse to the American people, and certainly they would have even less regard for foreigners, especially suspected enemies.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by masqua
Here's a link to the Alliance Base which deltaboy is talking about. This is from a washington Post article.

Who would have thought the French would be inplicit in this CIA funded centre by it's location in Paris?

This is Truly an Interesting Article - thanks to deltaboy and you for posting that!



I found this part Interesting:



Most French officials and other intelligence veterans would talk about the partnership only if their names were withheld because the specifics are classified and the politics are sensitive. John E. McLaughlin, the former acting CIA director who retired recently after a 32-year career, described the relationship between the CIA and its French counterparts as "one of the best in the world. What they are willing to contribute is extraordinarily valuable."

Which is in TOTAL Contradiction with the US goverments attitude in 2003 against France - Paris-Washington connections were actually Very good!



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 02:28 PM
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RENDITION the new word for kidnap, and EXTRADORINARY RENDITION the phrase for USA Government condoned, supported and funded TORTURE. Simple as, no lefts or rights, terrorists or freedom fighters.

Wake up guys, right now the most powerfull and arrogant about 'democracy' and 'human rights the land of the free' nation in the world is torturing people.

For those who say the dont know why the Europeans are making such a fuss of this well maybe our history makes us nervous of powerful, egomaniacical and right wing military based governments like the current USA. And trust me this will divide the europeans and americans more.

This link proves that America is directly involved with the preparation and organisation with the full support of torturing human beings, based on Intelligence. We all know what the Americans intelligence has led to before, the dire, dangerous and polarised world that has emerged post 9/11 whatever that events inception.

I see soo much quantifiable, observable, predictable and growing similarities between germany and also italy in the middle 1930's just before the Nazis made their final move and check mated most of europe, with Hitlers new law giving him complete control over parliment. However with the leaks, the in your face lies, murder and money over life philosophy grating most of the 'Civilised' ahem lol world the bumblings over katrina I am just more worried as they will now need a larger 'percieved' fear or an actual event to make their final move.

Now im not saying I am totally convinced this is true, however the similarities are very similair and dont bode well.

Thats why this European is so angry at this, along with most of this continent and others too.

I know that due to political affiliations in my college days I would never fly to America again! thats my tourism dollar gone for one lol!

Strange world eh I am now cautious about travel to your country 'The land of the Free" because of a summer of writing on a student and political mag over a decade ago, but a man who laid in a coffin naked chanting and masturbating to big bats and 'baal' and things even wierder than a scene from Ghostbusters in his student days, can become the president of the United States, flunk college, and get his henchman to kidnap and torture people on a hunch!


Washington Post

CBC

Hey I once knew someone, who new someone, who once dialled a wrong number to a man who may have had affiliations with a tourist who went to afghanistan once..... so im satying the hell away from the USA!

Democracy?

Anyway I was wondering if I say it is all the Jews fault, Oh so sorry!!
(had a 70 year flashback then wrong country and time but same fear and ignorance) ahem, I mean I agree to blame the terrorists for everything its all their fault, they have made it all wrong and unfair and evil in the world...its us or them! sooo please sir.... can I go to Disneyland and Epcot whilst high Just one more time?! lol (tongue in cheek in all this no offence meant just drawing parralells.)


And still a European making much noise and a 'big deal' about this. And in response to some I cant believe how the Americans cant see whats really happening all around them in their name, and with their consent. Sorry I mean I cant beleive the terrorists are doing this.....

MischeviouslySwimmingThroughIgnorance.

Regards Elf.

[edit on 5-12-2005 by MischeviousElf]

[edit on 5-12-2005 by MischeviousElf]



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Germany and Italy are filing charges because they do not have these bases in their countries. The secret prisons are in Eastern Europe. Not Germany or Italy. And I have no doubts that with Anti Muslim sentiment what it is in the east, there was plenty of permission and cooperation.

Why did the CIA not contact the Local Authorities about this "Terrorist Suspect"? Why didnt they notify their Secret Service, their Police, Interpol, Army Intel, WHATEVER - why were Citizens of Germany and Italy KIDNAPED?



There are numerous threads on this very site about secret US prisons for the detainees.

Yea I Know - I wrote them alot!




And your example is incorrect. We are not abducting eastern Europeans and imprisoning them in their countries. They are shuttling persons who have been captured on the battlefields or with certain ties and such. They are not simply grabbing people in the middle of the night from their homes for #s and giggles.

Citizen of Germany was Kidnapped when he step from his airplane in Macedonia and was taken with a CIA charter flight to some of the Secret Detention Camps, who knows which one, there are many to choose from the List. He was not captured in the Middle of Iraqi Battlefield, he was on his vacation. And I think he was not the Only One.



I am niether condoning nor opposing the existance of secret prisons until I have Firm confirmation they exist. I simply want the facts to get straight.

And if it is true, I am not surprised. The CIA has done FAR worse to the American people, and certainly they would have even less regard for foreigners, especially suspected enemies.

Well that is True - CIAs past is not a really Bright one, and I am sure that they will do their Best to "Keep their Good Name"!



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 03:41 PM
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Here is a map from Der Spiegel. It makes it easier to get the picture. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg.


Graphic: Suspected CIA terror flights in Europe (Der Spiegel) - Click picture for original page and size

And once again I want to recommend SOJ for her excellent coverage of this stuff. Currently she has 11 parts of a series called "CIA Secret Prisons" (found on the right-hand column of her blog).



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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djohnsto:

I don't understand why people automatically assume that people are being tortured there. Even some people claiming to have been detainees at these sites don't say that they were abused


Chances are, if you are being sent to a "Secret" prison, they aren't erring on the side of human rights there. The things going on in "secret" aren't strip-o-grams for the inmates.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 03:58 PM
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Care to back that, Jakomo?
Maybe HRW or Amnesty International has some documentation that confirms what transpires at those CIA secret prisons for runaway terrorists and foreign fighters? Could you produce such or are you simply living off of the memories of Abu Ghriab?






seekerof



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 04:01 PM
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Wow. Awesome map, Hellmutt.

I was quite unaware of just how many nations were complicit in the CIA operations of transporting of those terrorists and foreign fighters to those in-house CIA secret prisons....

Thanks.





seekerof



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Care to back that, Jakomo?
Maybe HRW or Amnesty International has some documentation that confirms what transpires at those CIA secret prisons for runaway terrorists and foreign fighters? Could you produce such or are you simply living off of the memories of Abu Ghriab?


Why don't you answer the questions asked of you first, and give your backing, before facetiously demanding it from someone else.




"MERC"

[edit on 043131p://09124 by MERC]



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Can you support this statement?

I'm certain covert elements in some European nations are cooperating with these tactics. But I doubt all. And in any event, the policies of covert government agencies very often do not reflect the same ideals as the governments themselves.



I gave it in my initial response to this topic, SO.
Rice indicated it.
The CIA does not operate in other allied nations without express approval or the host nation not knowing. We are not talking spy operations here, which even during the Cold War, the US had to let the allied host nation know a CIA or NSA, etc op was working within their borders. We are talking physical buildings [CIA torture prisons] and recorded CIA inbound and outbound ghost flights of those detained terrorists and foreign fighters. I must admit, that providing source to back this is another matter all together. Best I can do till I run across such, sorry.




seekerof



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by MERC
Why don't you answer the questions asked of you first, and give your backing, before facetiously demanding it from someone else.


I answered it, MERC.
I answered it with a question.
Got a problem with my answer?
Deal with it, maybe?






seekerof



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 04:24 PM
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Don't you people feel proud of our nations dominance in other countries around the world.


To the point of even making these countries do what our nation wants


Even these nations leader has been able to keep their own citizens in the dark.

I wonder how much in the dark are we when it comes to what our nation is doing here at home.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by MERC
Why don't you answer the questions asked of you first, and give your backing, before facetiously demanding it from someone else.


I answered it, MERC.
I answered it with a question.
Got a problem with my answer?


Why, what are you going to do, have me detained? Regardless, I don't think you have answered in an anywhere near satisfactory manner.

I'd like to have a joke with you, seekerof, really I would, but times are serious, and both you and djohnsto77's mind state are clearly in question here, with urgent legitimacy. I have nothing further to say.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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abcnews.go.com...


Dec. 5, 2005 — Two CIA secret prisons were operating in Eastern Europe until last month when they were shut down following Human Rights Watch reports of their existence in Poland and Romania.

Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today. The officers say 11 top al Qaeda suspects have now been moved to a new CIA facility in the North African desert.


Good job guys. We just made these guys lives worse by moving them to Africa instead of staying in the lively Europe.



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy

Good job guys. We just made these guys lives worse by moving them to Africa instead of staying in the lively Europe.


Some African nations have fairly miserable human rights issues, so I suppose that will be the end of the trail to figure the locations of these prisons.

One thing that puzzled me, though...if the centre of the Alliance base is in France, the Der Spiegel report failed to note this on their map which Helmutt provided. I thought the omission was glaring.

IMO

The only other comment I can think of is the fact that this particular effort on the War on Terror certainly is making for strange bedfellows. I still can't think of any reason why these prisoners can't be processed in an open manner unless it is the fact of torture tactics being more desireable. Since it is now considered illegal in America, the CIA moving people to 'cesspits of inhumanity' to keep up such tactics seem to evident.

This does make me want to visit America...

edit to add...NOT



[edit on 5-12-2005 by masqua]



posted on Dec, 5 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by masqua

One thing that puzzled me, though...if the centre of the Alliance base is in France, the Der Spiegel report failed to note this on their map which Helmutt provided. I thought the omission was glaring.



Because the map is incomplete. You notice it dont add like Libya or other countries on the map. France is possible place to land and transfer as well. Look at Germany.



posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 02:08 AM
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IN AN ATTEMPT to quell a growing storm in Europe over the CIA's secret prisons, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice yesterday issued a defense based on the same legalistic jujitsu and morally obtuse double talk that led the Bush administration into a swamp of human rights abuses in the first place.


A weak defence indeed

That opening paragraph in itself says it all. nuff said.



posted on Dec, 6 2005 @ 02:57 AM
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At the frontpage of Danish newspapers today. Picture of Condi with an angry face and the headline is something like "Condi warns Europe!". They claim she said something along the lines of "if Europe doesn´t co-operate with The U.S., then they will be struck by terror!" It was painted like a threat and not as a friendly warning/heads-up. Can she do that? Can she pull some strings to make terrorists punish Europe for their "lack of support" for U.S. in the WOT. These journalists might be biased, but I think there might be some underlying message from her meant to scare people. Actually if it indeed was a threat, I´m not surprised. It´s not the first time this administration uses these tactics after all. The bully in the schoolyard... "Do as I say, or else...."




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