Purgatory is in Limbo

At one time, there was profound issue that faced the early Christian theologians of the Catholic Church. Where did unbaptized babies go? That is, where did young innocents who died before receiving the sacrament of Baptism? After all, it was not their fault that they succumbed to illness or accident before they received the word of God. They couldn't rightfully be sent to Hell and they were not able to enter Heaven because they were not "saved". This was quite a conundrum in the early Church. The solution was "LIMBO" or Purgatory.

For example, if there was an aboriginal tribe in some obscure place, say the darkest depths of the Amazon, and there was a "good" "savage" who lived his life in a manner that would have been considered as decent within the boundaries of his tribe, was it really his fault that he could not go to Heaven if he died. After all, is this "savage" really culpable that he did not know the Word of God simply because the Bible was unknown to him?

The Church developed the concept of Limbo or Purgatory just for these cases where it would be an injustice to sentence a soul to the eternal fires of Hell through no fault of their own. But now, the Church is looking into eliminating Purgatory. www.huntingtonnews.net... .

I saw something on this, too, in the last day or so....

It never ceases to amaze me how acceptable it obviously is, in the minds of so many people, for these things to be 'decided' in ways that are far more political and beaurocratic than they are spiritual (and I'm being generous with the possibility of any true spiritual concern--meaning true motivation, not perceived motivation).

First they state something under the guise of 'biblical' or 'god given' truth--then, later, when it doesn't prove to be functioning with the same efficiency as at first,
it is duly revised and adjusted to suit the needs of the present. And so then that becomes the 'truth.' Until the next one is formulated.

I have a hard time believing that circumstances dictate the nature of truth--primarily because that which essentially 'is' cannot be defined or put into words, especially by one man or group of men on behalf of many, many souls. We can each only understand what 'is' within our own sphere of reality.

There never was a purgatory. A baby at death goes immediately to be with God.

The doctrine of purgatory was instituted by Gregory I in 593. Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma by Council of Florence in the year 1439, by that time the truth about God and salvation had been compromised.

www.gospelcenterchurch.org...

[edit on 4-12-2005 by dbrandt]



[edit on 4-12-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by queenannie38
It never ceases to amaze me how acceptable it obviously is, in the minds of so many people, for these things to be 'decided' in ways that are far more political and beaurocratic than they are spiritual (and I'm being generous with the possibility of any true spiritual concern--meaning true motivation, not perceived motivation).

Queenie, you do know how the Bible cam to be don't you? The idea of separating religion and politics is a new innovation.

I really don't see much of a line between politics and religion to begin with--they are two peas in a pod and so separating them is a hopeless task, anyway. Religion adds superstition to the mix and so the majority of people think that makes it 'spiritual.' Yet they call it 'supernatural.' IMO, 'supernatural' is anything beyond 'nature', which I consider that which we can see...and so all things unseen (even electricity, then, for that matter) is 'supernatural' (well, except for lightning, that is. hee hee).

I guess I should rephrase and say I'm amazed how many people accept political methods to determine their thoughts and ideas about something that is inherently and irrevocably a strictly personal concern. And then label it 'God.' That kind of thing taints the thoughts of the world, in general--no matter where their personal view might take them, mislabeling causes diverted paths in many cases and interferes with our so-called 'free will'--in a way largely undetected.

Originally posted by dbrandt
There never was a purgatory. A baby at death goes immediately to be with God.

And how do you know that? I mean really know? There is not a single person alive that can say, with unquestionable authority, where any person (baby or adult, 'saint' or 'sinner') goes 'immediately' after death.

We can all variously hope, believe, trust, feel in our heart of hearts, doubt, dismiss, and what-have-you....but to say something like that is beyond human jurisdiction. That includes all humans--Pope, laity, christian, heathen, and atheist alike.

The doctrine of purgatory was instituted by Gregory I in 593. Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma by Council of Florence in the year 1439, by that time the truth about God and salvation had been compromised.

Yet the 'god is three equal persons' doctrine, circa 360 AD, is a 'non-compromised' pure doctrine, then? Is that where you draw the line in your personal accreditation of Catholic doctrine and beliefs? If so, then what is your reasoning?

I say that all 'truth' is compromised by human handling. Once it comes out of the lips, over the tongue, it is no longer pure. Even our best efforts at conveying what resides in our hearts (where truth can dwell, safely, IMHO) render it marred by the carnal nature of its journey. The more mouths it travels through, the worse it gets.

Not that we still don't try--that's expected and probably required. But also required is the realization that these things are imperfect , at best, and are to serve as beacons in the dark for one another--not officially-sanctioned road maps.

there is nothing in the bible to support the idea of a purgatory, it is eitehr heaven or hell. there is no middle ground, and there is no coming back from it for mere mortal men

But scripture does support the idea that God knows who these unborn babies are. Even before conception. So the best we can say right now is that God makes the final decision, and if he is the loving God we all know it is very likely they are recived in heaven.

Too often Purgatory has been used by the catholic church to create fear, or a way out to line thier coffers, and keep members coming to church.

Per Catholic teaching Limbo is not the same as Purgatory. The concept of limbo has always been in limbo. Limbo was used in an attempt to explain children dying prior to Baptism, which even today the church admits there are some things we just don't know. Granted, it was a pathetic attempt to ease the concerns of grieving parents, so I will not attempt to defend this concept.

However, the concept of Purgatory is totally different, and I do not believe this is being changed. Per Catholic teaching, when you die, you are either condemned to Hell, or are destined for Heaven. However, one must be in a state of perfection to be in the presence of God. Not all who die have achieved this state of perfection and Purgatory is where they are till this can be rectified. The key here is that anyone not in Hell is either in Heaven or headed there. Those in Purgatory are actually referred to as "the holy souls" because they are destined for heaven.

I am still unpacking and my Cathechism (the only authority on Church teaching) is currently in some unknown location. So I will wait to address some of the other issues raised here.

I would like to say this though, that link posted by dbrandt does absolutely not accurately describe anything about Catholicism and is extremely misleading, misrepresenting plenty of Catholic teaching and history. It is an independant Baptist site that has no authority to be explaining other faith's dogmas, and I can only imagine what they are saying about every other denomination after seeing some of the abominations of interpretation on my own faith there.

Of course, believe what you want about the Catholic church, I am only trying to clarify for anyone interested, what the teachings actually are, because I don't see the point in debating the merits of something that doesn't exist.

Nice heads up on the posting of the article Benevolent, I do want to follow this issue of limbo and I hadn't seen this yet.

My sincerest hope is that they return 'limbo' back to what it was originally: a progressive dance, under a pole held horizontally, to a tune with a calypso beat.



More fun for all, IMHO.

Originally posted by dbrandt
There never was a purgatory. A baby at death goes immediately to be with God.

The doctrine of purgatory was instituted by Gregory I in 593. Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma by Council of Florence in the year 1439, by that time the truth about God and salvation had been compromised.

www.gospelcenterchurch.org...

[edit on 4-12-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 4-12-2005 by dbrandt]

The concept of an unbaptized baby dying and going to purgatory arose from the philosophical concept of "Original Sin". For example, in the most simplistic of terms; because Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, they were banished from Paridise -- by God. They had disobeyed God by not heeding his singular command, "Don't eat that "Apple" (please just accept this statement without going into a discussion about what sort of fruit or vegetable or whatever it really was). Adam and Eve sinned what, basically, was the first sin, ergo; "Original Sin".

From that point on, every man and woman born entered into existance tainted by "Original Sin". Man (used generically) could no longer "be with God". Man could not re-enter Paradise, after all God had kicked Adam and Eve out and, for some reason, chose to castigate and blame their innocent offspring as well. God, in a sense, damned all the babies -- all the innocent people -- descended from the "issue" of Adam and Eve with "Original Sin".

The only way that the taint of Original Sin could be lifted from the souls of mankind was through the Sacrifice of God's Son, Jesus on the Cross (personally, I really don't see how executing Jesus could accomplish this -- you'd think that God could just, simply "change things"). Jesus' death on the cross and subsequent Resurection from the Dead erased Original Sin from the souls of mankind and we could all, then, have an opportunity at Paradise. And, yet, it still wasn't enough. Before each person could enter Heaven, he or she had to be Baptised in order to "wash away our Original Sin" (again, you have ask why Baptism was necessary because Jesus did "die for our sins" -- wasn't this enough?)

In a nutshell, this gets us to the point about all of the babies who died before
Jesus died on the cross to "erase our Original Sin". When they died, they were really innocent and it was troubling to think that God would simply damn babies to hell -- where, presumably everyone else was since they too had Original Sin -- so Limbo or Purgatory was "set up". It had to exist because it was too difficult to conceive of a God that could be so heartless as to damn the innocent to Hell (you know, there ARE a few contradictions here?).

Purgatory or Limbo developed into a place where Catholics who died with "venial" sins .... you know, "little sins"....would go. It was necessary to invent Purgatory or Limbo to rectify or justify a number of contradictions in theology. And, keeping in mind that Christ did say that "what was bound on Earth would be bound in Heaven" was construed as being "what the Church ordained into existence would also exist in Heaven". So, theologically speaking, there WAS a limbo or purgatory and it needed to exist theologically and this is why Papal commissions have come into existence to make limbo "go away". The theological contradictions still exist.

One last problem is what does the church do about those souls who have already suffered in limbo or purgatory.....do they go to hell? do they go to heaven, even though they have sins on their soul (but not big ones. so , in effect, it's ok to go to heaven with a few "little" sins)? Whew, what a theological can of worms.

If you can ask "Why" then you have not been purged. So you are either at a stage which demonstrates the purge at or y ask why.

purg at or y

just a thought.

Pergatory is looking for answers that fear and hate can not supply.

Originally posted by Relentless
However, one must be in a state of perfection to be in the presence of God. Not all who die have achieved this state of perfection and Purgatory is where they are till this can be rectified.

And once you die you face the judgement, there is no chance after this. Our justification is in Jesus Christ and Him alone. Faith placed in Christ is what erases a persons sin and brings salvation and I will not use the word perfection because no one is perfect even after salvation. A person after salvation becomes justified in Christ and then sanctification begins. This salvation in Christ is 100% complete. When Christ said "It is finished" while on the cross, that is what He meant. Sin had been atoned for and was complete in Him for those who place their faith and trust in Him alone.

benevolent: Okay - I'll say it again - Limbo and Purgatory are NOT THE SAME THING!

dbrandt: I am explaining Catholic beliefs. You can argue them if you want, but that does not change what the beliefs are. Yours are different, and that's fine, but at least admit neither belief is going to be proved till we get there.

You see flaws in Catholic beliefs, just as Catholics see flaws in yours. Good thing we live in a world (for the most part) where you can make your choice. But I would like to say again, that debating who is right in these religious doctrines is rather useless, as people have different points of view on interpretation of these things.

Oh, and queenannie - that was great - I am still laughing

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
One last problem is what does the church do about those souls who have already suffered in limbo or purgatory.....do they go to hell? do they go to heaven, even though they have sins on their soul (but not big ones. so , in effect, it's ok to go to heaven with a few "little" sins)? Whew, what a theological can of worms.

Not really, you obviously didn't read what I wrote, all souls in purgatory ultimately go to heaven, but not till their souls are purified. It's all quite clear when it comes to the Catholic beliefs on purgatory.

Originally posted by Relentless
Not really, you obviously didn't read what I wrote, all souls in purgatory ultimately go to heaven, but not till their souls are purified. It's all quite clear when it comes to the Catholic beliefs on purgatory.

You know, I have often considered that the idea of purgatory is not necessarily incorrect, but only misplaced.

Perhaps our present reality is purgatory for us all--we are being purged before entering a pure state of love and unity.



It's possible!

Originally posted by Relentless
benevolent: Okay - I'll say it again - Limbo and Purgatory are NOT THE SAME THING!

I stand corrected Relentless. You are right. For my error, I'll spend a few decades in Purgatory for this venial sin. I'm sure that you will receive a whole shipload of indulgences for paying such good attention at Catachism Classes.

Thanks for clearing it up for me.