Young America

I am starting to see a frightening trend with the youth of this country. Walk into most political science classes in this country and you will see a large amount of "sheep". What i mean by this is that these people will echo what the administration echos.

For example i noticed they think that the Abu Ghraib stuff was just prisoner abuse and not torture in any sense. I fail to see the logic of this, these are POW's that are being beaten, humiliated and who knows what else in a time of war for fun and information. That is torture i don't care what way you look at it, if they are POW's it is classified as torture.

Prisoner abuse would be some black dude getting beat up by cops in an LA county jail. How the hell did the Bush administration manage to pull this off? Does their constant repetition really work that well? I would think that most people in this country still used their brains but it looks as if they just let the politicians do their thinking for them.

People engage brain and prepare to think for once in your life. I'm sure there is some covert plan out there that has some details on the Bush propaganda machine. The Internet is the perfect means to get these kids into a certain mind set and probably keep them this way for many decades to come. The youth were supposed to be the saviours of this country but it looks as if they will be the downfall. I'm sure the brain drain of this country is no accident but a method of controlling the public, it seems to be working.

It wasnt the Bush administration that did this, it was a group of individual soldiers, as the investigation concluded. And they have been or are in the process of being punished. Sorry, but this one is a dead issue.

While I agree that some of what was allegedly done at Abu Graib would constitute "torture," I think you cheapen the word and deliver a major injustice to those who have really endured true torture, when you include "humiliation" in the definition. What John McCain went through for over 5 years at the Hanoi Hilton was torture. When an Iraqi has a pair of womens underwear put on his head or is made to lay naked with another prisoner, that is NOT torture. It may be wrong, but its certainly not torture. I'm willing to bet that there were plenty of Jewish people who survived torture during the Holocaust who would have dreamed of having panties thrown on their head and being stripped naked and photographed, rather than face what they faced.

I think you would serve a much greater cause by objecting to the kidnappings, suicide bombings, and beheadings of innocent civilians committed by a large majority of the insurgents/terrorists in Iraq rather than that actions of a handful of American troops that resulted in some blushing and Muslim homophobia. At least we bring those who represent us and break the rules to justice. I don't see Zarqawi or bin Laden throwing their guys in the brig for inappropriate conduct.

First, I would like to point out how quickly this thread has deviated from the topic at hand.....the lack of political awareness among today's young Americans and the potential (sic) for the manipulation of their thoughts, beliefs and even actions.

As to replying to this thread; I would have to agree that there is, indeed, a disturbing trend towards being "followers" among the young. An example of this is with my own children. One day, my 15 year old son came from school and he stated that "Bush was an -expletive deleted- !
I asked him why he felt that President Bush warranted that very strong opinion and he really couldn't answer me. He really didn't know.

A few days later, some of his friends came over to play HALO on the X-Box. When I overheard one of the boys make, pretty well, the same comment about President Bush, I asked them all why they believed what they did about President Bush, not one could give me a concrete answer. They were unable to justify "their own" opinions.

I went on to ask the guys how they came to believe "their own" beliefs, they answered with replies such as; "my dad told me", "I learned this on the internet (he didn't know what site)" or, my favorite, " I just know he (Bush) is an -expletive deleted-". I was dumbfounded. Personally, I don't care what a person believes. I don't care what opinion a person holds about President Bush. All that I ask is that one can support their opinions and explain how a person has come to hold their beliefs. These young teens, 14 -17 years of age could not do this. All they could do is parrot what someone else told them.

This, to me, is a shocking trend. I am fifty-two years old. And, at the risk of sounding like one of those "back in my day" guys, I have to say that at their age, I was well aware of current events. At that time the VietNam war was underway and I "knew", to the best of my ability, about what was going on. In fact, most of my friends also "knew" what was going on. We were young, we might not have had all of the facts but we could support our opinions. We could support our beliefs. And, most importantly, our opinions and beliefs differed. Today, it's as if all of the kids have to believe the same things, parroting the standard "party line" of their favorite celebrity or musician. To me, this is shocking. Where has critical thinking gone? Or is the ability to access "real" information -- information about the real world -- been distracted by a virtual world of video gaming and internet chat rooms?

Just curious, but what political science classes you are talking about? High school, university, and where? I finished just last year, and political science was one of my majors in unversity and I would say that the climate here (a university in south-eastern Florida) is entirely the opposite. You would be very hard pressed to find anyone, faculty included, that "echoes the administration's line" or even supports it. In fact, "no more bussh!t" is one of the most popular bumper stickers in the parking lots. Please let me know where you've experienced the classes you've described, so I know where I should be looking into eventually sending my kids! I don't mean to flame or start an argument, I'm just shocked to hear about your observation.

Ok in Iraq some soldiers raped the wives and children of the men to get them to talk, the men could hear the women screaming in the other room. This to you is not torture? You don't have the first clue of what went on in Abu Ghraib and what still goes on there and in other prisons.

Do you really think all they did to these people was put women's underwear on there heads? If you do then i laugh at such idiocy, it is truly sad. Lets look at the definition of torture: To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another).

People were beaten so badly they died or were paralyzed. Some were even raped or forced to perform sexual acts to each other. They were inflicted with physical and mental pain. That is torture, if you still think it isn't then there is no help for you. I would suggest you go play in the street and hope a car rides you over.

I personally think its not just about bush or the "war", I think its the new trend, made fun of in the Matrix "Smith: me me me.....me too".

I keep seeing posts made where people don't have anything to add or to explain differently but reply just to say "hey, me too", generally in the Board Questions & Business. It has got to be formed from peoples need to be accepted and understood, since people don't spend enough "real time" with others (so they don't REALLY know them), they take the easy way out and try to be the same.

I think you need to re-read your original post and my response to it, pal. You included "humiliation" as an example of torture. My response was that putting panties on a prisoner's head or throwing a few homophobic Iraqis into nude gay poses is not really torture, as I see the definition. I'm certainly not justifying the troops' actions. What they did was wrong. But embarrassment and humiliation are not torture, IMO. There is no pain or physical wounds inflicted there. An injury to one's pride being called torture is a major injustice to the real victims of torture, such as those who were raped and killed as you mentioned.

It was extremely moronic of you to act as though I condone the rape and murder of Iraqis and don't believe it was torture. That's an absurd statement on your part and what I can hope was only a random act of mental retardation. Obviously the raping, beating, drowning, killing, etc., of Iraqi prisoners is a despicable act and those who commit such atrocities should be punished severely. But if putting a pair of women's underwear on a prisoner's head or stacking them in a gay pyramid is going to reveal plans for an upcoming suicide attack one out of a thousand times, then I feel those actions can be justified. So long as this war on terror continues and so long as those "embarrassing moments" yield any form of good intelligence then I will continue to support them.

Moving on to the main subject of this thread- the children in America. One of the problems I see as a 24-year old is that it is thought of as "not cool" by a majority of our youth to watch CNN or any other news network. You're a geek if you keep up on current events or read history purely for your own enjoyment. I also blame the parents for not engaging in challenging, thought-provoking conversation with their children enough. We cannot depend on the public school system entirely to make our children interested in and knowledgeable of politics and current events. But I do feel as our education system has declined over the years in math, english and science, so has it also declined in the area of political debate and the awareness of world events. I know that some schools are trying to address the latter, at least in a small way. The high school that I attended had a news program geared towards youth, "Channel One," that we watched in roll call every morning. It did a decent job of making the news tollerable to those with short attention spans and a general lack of care for what goes on outside of their immediate world.

I think what this all comes back to is parenting. The schools can do more in this effort, but the bulk of the load must be carried by moms and dads. Parents must test their children and help them develope independent opinions on important issues, even if its at the dinner table everynight. Certainly the taboo on discussing politics and religion must be relaxed! But I don't think there is any orchestrated government conspiracy here to dumb down our youth and make them easily-manipulated. While the media may bear a large responsibility for shortening our children's attention spans and making them less interested in the important things in life, its the parents that need to pull their kids in the other direction.

As much as I find Al Gore a repulsive individual, I give him credit for his attempt at reaching out to youth and making current events interesting to them through his new news channel "Current." I can't say for sure whether it's going to catch on or whether its going to bomb, but I applaud him and others for their efforts in that endeavor.

Just wait until you see the new photos and videos that have to be released. The Bush Administration is appealing like mad trying to keep them from the public but the Judge said they have to release them. I would love to see what you think about Abu Ghraib then, as soon as they come out within the next few years, i'll let you know.

Here's hoping that the new round of abuse photos at Abu Grahib never sees the light of day. They are the photos meant to rile the Muslims to the point of bedlam, as well as being part of the mind conditioning for Americans as well.

Here's a intresting video, all of the people answering the questions in it are obviously idiots, but look at what the younger people are saying:
www.infowars.com...

This is an excellent observation and thread. I wonder how old these kids in the poly-sci class were? High school or college? In any case, I can understand the 14-17 year olds that benevolent tyrant spoke about being of the 'sheep-ish' mindset. They're kids, they want to fit in, to be cool. They don't really need a reason to speak out. If they get accepted by their homies, then that's what they'll say.

But college kids should really be learning about politics and what their own personal beliefs are. I mean if they're old enough to vote, they should at least have a clue about what they're voting for and not just going along with the crowd.

I personally think that at 18, most kids today don't know enough to vote.

And worse, I don't think they care. They see how the 'adults' have royally messed up the future for them and they don't want to be a part of what they see as the problem. I can totally understand the apathy.



Wow, I don't get this. You want your kids to be non-thinking sheep? Hmmm...

My thoughts exactly.



You say it's a trend Ninja, but....where? Certainly not in the United States.
Especially in Universitites, it is extremely opposite of what you said Ninja.

Kids younger than College age tend to follow their parents. Have you seen Bush's approval rating lately, or the numbers of those who support the war and this administration? It's a record low levels. If these kids are following their parents then, again it would be opposite of what you said.

No, not thoughtless sheep, BH, but no impressionable young child should have to endure a professor that's a liberal lunatic who complains about the American flag hanging in the classroom (I had to endure it, and unfortunately many in the room cheered him!) I'd prefer as little bias as possible spewing from professors, especially the ones teaching my kids about the political system, but I'd much rather have my kids exposed to free-market conservative bias than some defeatist neo-marxism baloney.

The thread-starter said "political science" which is rather vague, but political bias has no place in a public administration, political theory, or comparative politics course. Now, foreign policy/international relations... that's where bias gets fun!

ed:sp

[edit on 19-12-2005 by AlphaHumana]

I do find it alarming that most teenagers nowadays take what they see on the news and hear from their elders as the full truth. Hopefully there will be some "revolution" in the whole USA looking deeper that what they are told.
I'm just afraid to see what the country will be like in 50 years.

It's called being a teenager. I mean no offense, but really. I consider myself a liberal, yet while I was a teenager, I saw clinton as, well, probably whatever your boys are calling Bush. Teens rebel against Authority by nature. The President is the pinnacle of Authority - therefore hte president is a _____. Not just him - everyone in office ius seen as an old geriatric fart who needs to be given the boot so he can pitch Viagra and Pepsi. Taking an opposite stance makes them "not cool", even if they don't get the reason for taking that stance. All I knew about Clinton was that he sounded dumb, and later on,. was getting more action than me - The jerk!

Back in your day there was probably les BS clouding the radar. Back then, politicians would make an actual point, for good or bad. These days, it's all catchphrase and blip-babble, meant to cater to the ever-decreasing attention span of the ever-increasingly fungal American public. So you had something with dubstance to chew over. We get a mantra of "War on Terror, Morals and Values!" from the Right, and "Impeachment and Lies and Diversity!" from the left, there';s nothing of substance.

Not to parent for you, but maybe you should have a talk with your kid about the importance of being informed and civic-minded?

mod edit to shorten quote

[edit on 24-12-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

i am the parent of two teenagers. my 15 yr old boy has a very definite opinion, but he's laid back about it. on the other hand, i have a 13goingon30 year old daughter, who has very strong opinions on any number of subjects, and you'd better be able to back your thoughts up, don't worry about her's. during the last election for president, in her honors english class, they had a mock election. my daughter was the only one who was able to go in depth on many of the issues, and even argued with the teacher with many things-which i had to have words with the teacher because she felt my child had an 'attitude' and dared to bring 'bush' to task on some. no other child in this class could say anything about the current events, unless they had a newspaper in front of them. i do believe that parents are first in line to get their children to the point that they can think for themselves, but i also feel that alot of the adults in this country are acting like those chilren. we live every day in this country, we allow the govn. to intrude more and more, to seize more and more power, to take more and more from the least who can afford it, and what do we do? we still allow them to do it. how can the children learn to fight if we as a country have forgotten how ourselves?

I'm 25 years old and hate to say that I'm far more aware of the world around me than 19,000 other people of my age. I started watching the news when I was fifteen, reading history and politics just for fun by age sixteen, so needless to say I was labeled a nerd. Sadly, I hope all the none nerds never, ever vote, the country is screwed if they do.

Now I don't see a whole lot of youth 'buying' into the Bush admin's story about Abu Gharib and other tales of the 'War on Terror'. Rather I see the vast majority of people of my age (at least in my part of Michigan) spouting off the mindless drivel the liberally biased media shovels out on a daily basis.

I hate to say it but just watch TV to get a glimpse of our future. Amercia will no longer be a superpower in ten years for the simple reason that the youth of today are by and large absolute idiots. Back in the post WWII economic boon era, TV was largely educational or morallisticaly based as were other avenues of entertainment. It was cool to be a scientist or an electrical engineer, and it was people such as that that made us a superpower. Now everyone wants to be on American Idol. No wonder the Chinese laugh at us.

Why is this sounding more like a political thread, than a conspiratorial one?

Who are the conspirators that are causing the kids not to buy the crap they have been fed in the academic world for decades, now? I'm missing the connection.

Don't worry, SpecAgentDW, we're not going anyway, especially not within 10 years! I had an old Vietnam veteran Navy Captain-turned political science professor who would start the beginning of every semester with "Remember, the older, more educated, and more successful you become, the more likely you will become a conservative." This coming from perhaps one of the only conservative professors at my depressingly liberal school.

Most of the younger students/professors are liberals because we all know, if you can't DO, you teach.