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NEWS: Boston City Officials Say It Is A 'Holiday' Not 'Christmas Tree'

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posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 03:03 AM
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Imagine if you can a small town in the middle east which is predominantly christian or non muslim (unlikely I know but nevertheless) who decide that that Ramadan will not be called Ramadan but "diet holiday". How long would the town survive ? Sundown I would think or shortly afterwards once the fundamentalists have eaten something!

I am an atheist and this trampling on traditions by those who would go ape-sh#t should their traditions be trampled is just plain wrong. I blame the PC people.

Like others here have already said, most of the traditions at Christmas have very little to do with Jesus Christ. They are an amalgamation of many beliefs and customs.




posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 03:33 AM
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Well said. That is the kind of honest, straight forward answers we need around here!




posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by Always Trust_no1
...traditions should never be changed.


You're serious?!

Traditions that changed that maybe you think 'should never have changed':

Crucifiction
Cannibalism
Human Sacrifice
Ethnic religions dating back for thousands of years of tradition (mine being Odinism)
Women shouldn't vote.
Slavery
etc.

Traditions die. Mostly so a better one moves in it's place. I see the Pauline Story worshipers whine about enough crap. It's only a belief for christ's (haha) sake. It has nothing to do with what the Government wants to do (shouldn't at least). Ugh, I lost my point...does anyone else feel that people take this crap way too far? I mean...law suits?!!? Criminy!



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 06:16 AM
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I think the basis of this whole thread comes down to the term "Politically Correct".

IMO, its becoming ' mentally challenged '


It seems anyone can cause a fuss over something they don't deem as 'politically correct', and the wheels start turning.

I believe some of the 'politically correct' terms/descriptions that have been introduced to replace some of the old labels are quite appropriate and acceptable by most, if not all.

I do not however, believe they should be applied to traditions such as Christmas or the like, Religious or not.

It has been called/referred to Christmas since I was a child, and for quite some time before that. That's how my children know it, and hopefully their children will know it as Christmas as well.

I did not come from a religious family, so there was no religious value for Christmas when I was a child. We celebrated Christmas as Christmas. Trees, presents, dinner,etc.

If I was to celebrate a holiday initiated by another country's practices, I would certainly not change the name to suit my beliefs, religious or otherwise, nor would I expect them to change it to appease me.

Will the day come when it will no longer be referred to as Christmas? If we start dissecting small portions of it now, 50 years from now, it might just be a childhood memory. SAD.

I hope not, its a tradition that's been around for a while and I can't honestly see where it would truly offend anyone.

As an adult, and as many others would concur, Christmas is really for the children.
I have yet to hear a child complain about being offended by a Christmas Tree.



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by rmatrem
Wow your ignorant.

Theres no need for insultative language



Originally posted by rmatrem
Isn't Holiday derived from Holy day? ... hmmm... there is a non-rhetorical question... meant to be answered.

You should'nt get angry at me because you didnt take the time to post your thoughts more clearly.


Originally posted by rmatrem
Anyways, the Christmas tree is NOT a Christian symbol...

Then why the religious backlash at the renaming of a non-Christian symbol?


Originally posted by rmatrem
North America was predictably late in adopting such signs of frivolity as Christmas tree decorating. The Massachusetts Puritans' second governor, "William Bradford, wrote that he tried hard to stamp out 'pagan mockery' of the observance, penalizing any frivolity.... In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts enacted a law making any observance of December 25 (other than a church service) a penal offense; people were fined for hanging decorations. That stern solemnity continued until the nineteenth century, when the influx of German and Irish immigrants undermined the Puritan legacy. In 1856...Christmas was made a legal holiday in Massachusetts...." (from "Panati's Extraordinary Origins of Everyday Things," Charles Panati).

DO YOU GET IT? It was a pagen practice of decoration...

I assume you were remiss and forgot to quote that excerpt from here. You didnt mean to plagiarize, right?


Originally posted by rmatrem
HELLO! The Christmas tree IS a sign of tolerance of religion, foreign beliefs and tradition...

The Christmas tree is fobbed off as a neo-Christian icon. Just because you interpret it in such a way does not mean its true. Otherwise why are there American Christians decrying this name change if its got absolutely nothing to do with Christiannity, as you claim?

To the rest, why are you complaining that taxpayer's property and funds are not being appropriated for quasi-Christian purposes? This has nothing to do with being politically correct. It has everything to do with stopping public resources from being used for religious purposes. Muslims, Hindus and Jews all pay as much taxes as Christians, why is it their own religions dont get the benefit of tax payers money?

Half of you seem to think that you can no longer erect Christmas trees in your living rooms or celebrate Christmas. What a load of alarmist hog-wash. No one has the right to stop you from celebrating Christmas how you see fit in your own home and property. But when you try to secure public money for these things you are rightly going to run into legal opposition. Whats the problem with that?

[edit on 2/12/05 by subz]



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 07:55 AM
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Farther Christmas is being banned in the UK sort of....

Also, its politically incorect to call Christmas lights Christmas Lights..... You have to call them 'Festive lights' or some rubbish..


What is happening to this world?



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 08:06 AM
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rmatrem, check your u2u box ASAP



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 08:13 AM
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what a load of crap. its a christmas tree not a 'holiday tree', if a bunch of arabs or indians are going to get offended by that they have got their priorities wrong.

It's political correctness gone out of control. Anyone who complains about such a small thing should be shot for their stupidity

Besides, many people who arent christian still celebrate the holiday anyway because it has become a capitalist one and less value is placed on its religious roots.



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 08:19 AM
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Will anybody feel better to know that the ancient roots to the modern Christmas tree goes as far as the druids and the used of Ever greens?

Then how in the world the Christmas tree was linked to Jesus and modern Christianity?

A littler bit of research is in order I may said.

Let thank the legend of Martin luther, then.



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 08:22 AM
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Liberty University president Jerry Falwell

Who cares what that bloated gasbag waste of a person says? Looks like suing through the courts is "aok" when its in your favour.



show that more then 94% are in favor of naming them Christmas Trees

They're Christmas Trees, decorated trees with lights and stars on top are christmas trees, doesn't matter what anyone calls them. The city shouldn't be permited to put it up period. Why are they wasting time over this? Doesn't the City of Boston have better things to do? Arent' there any christian groups that can put up a tree near their church?

The only other holiday that has large brightly lit pine trees at this time of year is the orginal german pagan winter holiday, where they'd light the trees on fire as a sacrifice to their pagan gods.

Everyone complaining about 'religious oppression' here would probably also tear down a German Yule Tree to Odin if their local government was setting one up. The simple fact is that the whole thing is a waste, and the city government shouldn't be putting up anything like religious decorations.

. It is time for those who believe in the Christmas spirit to do as religious leaders did too Wal-Mart call for a boycott

Most christians do not care enough to bother with a boycott of, well what exactly, the entire city? They don't care enough to bother.



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 08:26 AM
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Originally posted by subz
What's the big deal? We're only seeing the renaming of government funded (or on public property) Christian expression.


The tree was not government funded, it was donated to the city of Boston by a man from Nova Scotia. That is the way it is done over the majority of our US cities they are all Donated and Decorated by Volunteers. Our local tree came from a private home this year.

So now you will argue, well the city has to pay to put it up and place the lights on them and once again you would be wrong again. Most lighting and decorating of the trees is done by Volunteers with either the local power company or private electric companies donating crews to light them supported by other volunteers

Now I am willing to bet you are going to say well they pay for all those Parades each year and once again you would be wrong. Why do you think they call the Thanksgiving/Christmas Parade in New York The Macy's Parade? That is because Macy's pays for most of costs associated with it, with the exception of crowd control which is handled by the Police which in some cases are off duty officers who donate their time.

In Detroit Hudson's department stores used to sponsor their parade not sure who does it now, but I assume it is from donated Money. Same here A Local bank sponsors ours.

The Rose Bowl Parade is all volunteers sponsored by many main stream corporations. Same with the Orange Bowl parade it is all part of the American spirit of the Christmas Tradition.

So much for your assertion that the government is paying for them other then for the Police.


[edit on 12/2/2005 by shots]



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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This has all got to stop. I'm not sure anything makes me more mad than all this taking "Christ" out of "Christmas".

HE IS THE REASON FOR THE FREAKING HOLIDAY!

If you don't want Christ in Christmas... DON'T CELEBRATE IT!

Plain and simple. We wouldn't have the holiday if it wasnt for CHRIST!

/rant



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 09:17 AM
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man, there is alot of hatred on this thread. what is it about christianity that scares all the atheists into jumping in with slanderous remarks?

anyway....again, its not about religion, its about numbers.

if 94 percent of americans want to call it a christmas tree, then why is the government caving in to appease the other 6 percent?

whatever happened to "majority rules?" politically correct is ok to a point, but not at the expense of offending everyone else's sensibilities.



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 09:39 AM
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Oh for crying out loud. No one is saying you cant celebrate or call it Christmas. All that is being changed is that the local government cannot have any part in it. How hard is that to understand?



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 10:06 AM
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Originally posted by rmatrem

The song refers to the tradition of bringing a FIR tree inside and decorating it with candy, baubles, bells and so on...


Exactly, a pagan tradition that pre-dates christianity by millinea as illustrated by the bible verse I provided (Jer 10:1-5) , which you and every other X-tian have conveniently ignored.



That is the problem with using translators, it doesn't understand the context inwhich it is being used.

Sprechst du Deutsch dann?

Are you kidding me? The translation means fir tre, plain and simple. In German there are two completely different words for christmas tree, and fir tree.

Weihnachtsbaum
Tannenbaum

Two different words, for two different things. Yes the Tannenbaum did ultimately become the Weihnachsbaum, but that is only due to traditions changing. No matter how hard you try to deny it, that is the FACT. Facts do not cease to exist simply because they are ignored.

Next thing you know you are going to tell me that the zwölf Rauhnächte is of x-tian origin.

Unwissenheit bestritten !

[edit on 2-12-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 10:52 AM
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This is on the newswires now even Jewish groups say it is OK to use the term Merry Christmas and in fact they support its use



A Jewish group that describes its mission as combating anti-Christian bias wants the "politically correct" to know that it's okay to say "Merry Christmas."

The Jews Against Anti-Christian Defamation (JAACD) is joining the annual debate over whether retailers should say "Merry Christmas" or switch to the more inclusive "Happy Holidays" to avoid offending consumers who might celebrate Hanukkah or Kwanzaa.

According to a 2004 Fox News/Opinion Dynamics poll, 96 percent of Americans celebrate Christmas. Tiny percentages said they celebrate Hanukkah or Kawanzaa and an even smaller percentage indicated that they celebrate more than one of the holidays.


Jewish Group Defends 'Merry Christmas' Greeting


Even Our Canadian neighbors agree


It's no longer the holiday season in Oxford, N.S. It's Christmas, period, according to a proclamation passed this week by town councillors.

Still smarting from a much-publicized bureaucratic bid to rename a famous Nova Scotia Christmas tree a "holiday" tree, leaders in this town of 1,300 say they're sick of state-sanctioned attempts to secularize the Christian holiday.

Earlier this week, councillors passed a motion banning the use of other names to describe Christmas, chief among them "holiday," which is a huge pet peeve of Mayor Lloyd Jenkins.


Can you imagine that Canadian government officials declaring it is officially Christmas


Now if we can just get the other 4 percent to agree








[edit on 12/2/2005 by shots]

[edit on 12/2/2005 by shots]



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 11:06 AM
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"Festivous.. for the rest of us"

Wow.. that's a very nice aluminum pole you have put up this year!


If I were to be upset about anything.. it would be about the boys that will not.. or can not come home for the holidays..



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Exactly, a pagan tradition that pre-dates Christianity by millinea as illustrated by the bible verse I provided (Jer 10:1-5) , which you and every other X-tian have conveniently ignored.


Yes you are right there, going back to the history of Christmas tree, yes it started, with the Fir tree almost 1000 years ago, when St Boniface, who converted the German people to Christianity.



St. Boniface was said to have come across a group of pagans worshiping an oak tree. In anger, St Boniface is said to have cut down the oak tree and to his amazement a young fir tree sprung up from the roots of the oak tree. St Boniface took this as a sign of the Christian faith. But it was not until the 16th century that fir trees were brought indoors at Christmas time.


The tradition moved to England and the tree became ornate with glass ornaments, and from England it was then moved to the US by then Germany was known as to be the makers of the most beautiful glass ornaments.

But the Christmas trees has a long tradition even before the first Christmas.

From Egyptians to Greeks and as far as the time of the Druids the worship of ever greens was part of their lives during the winter solstice.

The Romans even added lights to their houses in celebration.

To me is still a very ancient traditions of celebrating the winter months and if the Christians added to their festivities and holidays well so beat it.

I still like Christmas trees.


www.christmas-tree.com...



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 11:21 AM
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You know what is really funny?

The Jewish State of Israel is the only place in the world, where all Christians are granted FREE Christmas Trees by the JNF (Jewish National Fond) and the municipality each year.


(Jerusalem - Jaffa Gate; Dezember 2004) (more)

You Christians:

Have a happy christmas time
Don't let them take away your 'christmas trees', they are part of your christian culture.

(just my opinion)


[edit on 2-12-2005 by Riwka]



posted on Dec, 2 2005 @ 11:28 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043

To me is still a very ancient traditions of celebrating the winter months and if the Christians added to their festivities and holidays well so beat it.

I still like Christmas trees.


www.christmas-tree.com...


It is an ancient way to celebrate and bring a little colour to the otherwise dreary winter months, but that is not what you will see admitted to in this thread, or in many x-tian circles. I like evergreen trees during the winter months as well, even if I do live in SoCal. I however prefer to let them live in their natural environment, but that is just me. :p

What I do not like is ignorant people screaming bloody murder about how the tree's meaning is rooted in x-tianity, when the fact of the matter is, it is not, and their very "bible" deems it as Heathen . I find it of particular interest that x-tians can only quote their "bible" when trying to prove the validity of their religion, yet, when it conflicts with their practices they are amazingly silent.

The renaming of the tree is what allows it's use in public space as a non-offensive means of celebrating the holidays, from whatever angle you are coming at them from. It is the very same thing that happened when it got re-named as a christmas tree, which allowed the pagans to continue to celebrate their tradition.

It is simply a way for the state to continue celebrating religious holidays, which, here in the U.S., it is not supposed to do to begin with.

But no, that is not good enough for the x-tians, it has to be their way, or else they start screaming about how the state is taking meaning away from something that is NOT inherently x-tian to begin with.


I recognize it's nothing but semantics, and a rose by any other name, that walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, must still smell as sweet, blah blah blah...

As someone above pointed out though, these very same whiney x-tians would be the first to be up in arms if a local city council erected a yule log and called it as such.


[edit on 2-12-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]




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