Project Serpo: Postings by "Anonymous" -- Breaking news?

Originally posted by Centrist

Name withheld

Recently a new kind of marketing scheme has hit the internet, companies and individuals create websites that make amazing claims, such as these:

divethedeepscuba.com.au...
paleoshilling.nl...
You can listen to the alleged audio discussion on this third giant here:
giantology.typepad.com...

These all turned out to be a marketing scheme to promote a new video game, Shadow Of The Colossus:

www.us.playstation.com...

Hey Centrist, the Sony Colossii have been discussed at length in the Cryptozoology forum. Check out:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and

www.abovetopsecret.com...

if you're interested.

Poon

Originally posted by Centrist
Are we being fed authentic information with as much plausible deniability as possible? Are we being "authentic" disinformation as part of some agenda? Are we being fed disinformation believed by the "insider" to be authentic? Is someone out there trying to perpetrate a hoax?

As you go on to mention, it could be a hoax perpetuated with the intent of marketing another product, such as a book, film, or TV show.

We do have one such existing (indirect) link, considering the recently published material by Doty and Collins, both who have gone on record in support of the Serpo story.

We may also see a forthcoming release of a book dealing primarily with this subject -- we've even already had an aspiring film producer inquire (on ATS) into obtaining the rights to produce a film about the story!

I do believe, however, that we can discount the possibility of an "innocent hoax" when one considers the current and/or former DIA/OSI personnel who have gone on record backing this story. I quote from a mail written on Dec. 16 of last year by Robert Collins, former USAF Capt. once assigned to the Plasma Physics Group at Sandia National Laboratory:

"This has been said many times, but Gene Locowski, Paul McGovern, Rick Doty, Ed Doty, and a retired AF Colonel known to Bill Ryan have all said the Serpo sotry is true."

Even if Serpo is a complete fabrication, the corroboration by multiple, established government personnel involved speaks to the significance of the story.

I further believe, IMHO, the possibility that this represents an internet-based guerilla marketing campaign is equally unlikely.

Consider that if were to ever become known the aforementioned persons were colluding in an effort to market of a fortchoming project (i.e., a book), they would forever lose any and all credibility within the UFO community. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

While some cursory research reveals Mr. Doty's openess in having confessed to actively participating in past dissinformation campaigns against other esteemed members of the UFO community (e.g., Ms. Howe), it seems each past candidate for possible dissinformation campaigns was supportive of a common strategy to divide and fragment (in an effort to discredit members within) the community.

IMHO, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense that after decades of involvement, the few known quantities in the DIA/OSI active in the UFO community would band together and risk eventually discrediting themselves all together.

If one accepts that the collective backing of the Serpo by the aforementioned persons is in itself significant, then one is forced to consider that a perpetuated hoax is a rather unlikely possibility...

*********************

Originally posted by Jedi_Master
Well tell you what, the calc's were a "new fangled gadget" at the time ( even if trhey could get them in time), these people were going on a mission with a weight limit of 4.5 tons...

Now which would you do...

Take an untried calculator that could possibly break, or have other issues in design (hey remember the Pentiums with the floating point problem?), they already had the tried and true method that they were used to (the slide rules)?

Or would you chuck it and make room for something you could use, like a scientific microscope, or other measuring type equipment?

While I do find it interesting that the team would not have loaded a scientific microscope, let us remember there were, according to the story, only two scientists on the entire team.

Whose to say the US Military would have prioritized a biologist for such a trip in 1964?

It would be another year before Sturtevant would publish A History of Genetics.

IMHO, I would think the mission planners would likely have placed greater importance on issues involving astrophysics, aeronautics, and nuclear science, as from a military perspective, one would think a higher priority would be focused on technology with defense-related applications that could eventually allow for a return trip (at which time they could study the Serpo biology).

Regarding the decision to take a scientific calculator (a valuable tool in the aforementioned disciplines, BTW), remember that the events in this story supposedly occurred only five years removed from successfully sending man to the moon... and retunring him alive. And considering the SR-71 -- a rather complicated feat of aeronautical engineering -- first flew in 1964, I think they could probably have handled the successful roll-out of a calculator.

Lastly, the figure was amended to 45.25 tons, more than enough to allow for several scientific calculators (as well as a slide rule, an abacus, and a whole lot of pencils and paper!).









[edit on 16-1-2006 by sdrumrunner]

(Verbatim, received today after I'd asked him if he'd copied my site. Imitation is the highest form of flattery!)

Hi Bill,

No mystery here, I liked your Web Site design so I adopted it. I am my own designer, never use another person. I take ideas from others like they take ideas from me. The Web is an open free market IMHO. We will always have a bunch of whatever making up conspiracy theories, can't stop that and still think your design is the most efficient of all the designs I've seen.

Regards

Robert C

so basically..every flaw we've tried to uncover with serpo has been defeated in someway or another. that in itself is feat of credibility that blows away every other ufo/alien conspiracy ever online. From autopsy's to pictures...for me all I need to hear from anon now...isn't today the 16th supposed to be the day when serpo falls off the 25 year list? hmmm...in the last day or two, I guess I've been at a loss for words, especially with the website information and hearing the podcast (which by the way was very informative compared to other available interviews, bill)...The one thing I can say is. I'm waiting, I hope anon comes threw.

Originally posted by waffleprime
so basically..every flaw we've tried to uncover with serpo has been defeated in someway or another.

Not quite... no one is yet to adequately address the issues of orbital stability with regards to Serpo's described orbit and respective distance from a suppesdly as-of-yet discovered close binary system.

Question for Bill

However, I believe Bill put forth a testable theory describing a theoretical orbit for Serpo -- Bill, would you allow for us to shop it around and invite the particpation of members with a background in astronomy and/or astrophysics?

There are other areas of contention as well (e.g., travel time, measured time), though I personally believe there exists for each plausible, theoretical explanations which would account for them (a subject best saved for another post).

Originally posted by sdrumrunner

Originally posted by waffleprime
so basically..every flaw we've tried to uncover with serpo has been defeated in someway or another.

Not quite... no one is yet to adequately address the issues of orbital stability with regards to Serpo's described orbit and respective distance from a suppesdly as-of-yet discovered close binary system.

Question for Bill

However, I believe Bill put forth a testable theory describing a theoretical orbit for Serpo -- Bill, would you allow for us to shop it around and invite the particpation of members with a background in astronomy and/or astrophysics?

There are other areas of contention as well (e.g., travel time, measured time), though I personally believe there exists for each plausible, theoretical explanations which would account for them (a subject best saved for another post).

Thanks, sdrumrunner –

I did find a solution that worked (in theory) with all the data Anon gave. You can see it on www.serpo.org... . I confess I felt quite pleased with myself because that was straight after an astrophysicist on Victor's list had told me he couldn't find any configuration that matched the data, and therefore tended to reject the claims.

Subsequently, I nearly drove myself nuts trying to do the calculus to figure whether the orbit would be stable. My conclusion was that I think it would probably not be (but would not bet more than $10 on it). My astrophysicist contact was impressed, but he too thought it might not be stable. The more serious question was whether or not planets could ever form so that their orbital plane was orthogonal (at right angles) to the mutual orbit of the binary itself. To understand this, you need to see the diagram – then come back to this text!

I contacted the guy who put together this fantastic page burtleburtle.net... – you have to look at this: it's quite wonderful, and a very clever bit of java programming – to ask if he could help find a stable orbit given Anon's data. But I've not heard back from him after two weeks. I actually send him a prompt a couple of hours ago – it would be good to be in touch with him. (If anyone can help track him down with a phone number, let's contact him and see if he can lend a hand.)

Best, Bill

the ebens fought a war with another race completely destroying them? according to the documents on the serpo site they did that 1000 years before they became a spacefaring race. so logically, the opposition was either another local race sharing their planet or off-worlders who were silly enough to all come to the eben's world at once to be utterly destroyed.of-course the date mix-up could be a typo.either way we don't want to piss the eben's off, lol.

Originally posted by Bill Ryan
I did find a solution that worked (in theory) with all the data Anon gave... Subsequently, I nearly drove myself nuts trying to do the calculus to figure whether the orbit would be stable. My conclusion was that I think it would probably not be (but would not bet more than $10 on it). My astrophysicist contact was impressed, but he too thought it might not be stable.

Hi Bill,

Yes, this is indeed the orbital theory I am speaking of -- and yes, the orthogonal axis of rotation is a clever solution.

Speaking of which, with regards to the gentleman who has put together the orbital simulation page (to which you provide a link in your previous post), aren't those orbital simulations in 2-space?

I can imagine the mathematics involving a stable orbit of a close binary system in 3-space would be rather complex... Would you be willing to share your work to date?

I think the key to validating this described orbit does indeed lie within the mathematics. Once an equation descriptive of the theoretical orbit has been defined, it can be tested (as I believe a stable orbit would result in a net gravitational force of zero).

Your thoughts?

Best Regards,

sdrumrunner

Planet formation is common:

www.spitzer.caltech.edu...

www.aas.org...

www.science.psu.edu...

www.universetoday.com...

origins.jpl.nasa.gov...

Just a few of the links!


Even around Binary Star!

Originally posted by sdrumrunner

Originally posted by Bill Ryan
I did find a solution that worked (in theory) with all the data Anon gave... Subsequently, I nearly drove myself nuts trying to do the calculus to figure whether the orbit would be stable. My conclusion was that I think it would probably not be (but would not bet more than $10 on it). My astrophysicist contact was impressed, but he too thought it might not be stable.

Hi Bill,

Yes, this is indeed the orbital theory I am speaking of -- and yes, the orthogonal axis of rotation is a clever solution.

Speaking of which, with regards to the gentleman who has put together the orbital simulation page (to which you provide a link in your previous post), aren't those orbital simulations in 2-space?

I can imagine the mathematics involving a stable orbit of a close binary system in 3-space would be rather complex... Would you be willing to share your work to date?

I think the key to validating this described orbit does indeed lie within the mathematics. Once an equation descriptive of the theoretical orbit has been defined, it can be tested (as I believe a stable orbit would result in a net gravitational force of zero).

Your thoughts?

Best Regards,

sdrumrunner

Yes, the java animations are all in 2-space. But it may be that this (stars and planets in the same orbital plane) is axiomatic in terms of the laws of planetary formation; i.e. it's got to be like that. I just don't know, and my astrophysicist contact wasn't certain either.

Like everyone else, I'm intrigued by Anon's report of the "literally hundreds of pages of scientific calculations" in the 3,000 page report to explain the orbit. It might be that the laws of physics are not violated – but as per my current hypothesis that Anon is receiving his data from elsewhere, this idea of "not obeying the laws of physics" is a Chinese Whispers distortion of a message that originally started out as "it was pretty weird and not at all as we expected, so we had to do a lot of calculation to reconcile it all".

I confess this makes me seem like a geek (and I promise I'm not), but I actually tried to do the calculus in my head when trying to get to sleep one night. It's only the first little bit that's needed. What happens if the planet deviates in its orbit by a small amount? Does the pull from the slightly nearer sun then become greater than the pull from the other... or less? That's the question that determines whether the orbit is in equilibrium.

In fact, I'll have another go, this time with pen and paper... I'll report back!

Best, Bill

One constraint on these weird orbits: the average distance from planet to suns cannot change a huge amount, otherwise the climate would be far too unstable for comfortable habitation.

On Earth the mere fact of the seasons (tilt of rotational axis) causes a significant fluctuation, even though the distance from Earth to our Sun changes only a small amount.

Originally posted by sdrumrunner

While I do find it interesting that the team would not have loaded a scientific microscope, let us remember there were, according to the story, only two scientists on the entire team.

Whose to say the US Military would have prioritized a biologist for such a trip in 1964?

It would be another year before Sturtevant would publish A History of Genetics.

IMHO, I would think the mission planners would likely have placed greater importance on issues involving astrophysics, aeronautics, and nuclear science, as from a military perspective, one would think a higher priority would be focused on technology with defense-related applications that could eventually allow for a return trip (at which time they could study the Serpo biology).

Regarding the decision to take a scientific calculator (a valuable tool in the aforementioned disciplines, BTW), remember that the events in this story supposedly occurred only five years removed from successfully sending man to the moon... and retunring him alive. And considering the SR-71 -- a rather complicated feat of aeronautical engineering -- first flew in 1964, I think they could probably have handled the successful roll-out of a calculator.

Lastly, the figure was amended to 45.25 tons, more than enough to allow for several scientific calculators (as well as a slide rule, an abacus, and a whole lot of pencils and paper!).

[edit on 16-1-2006 by sdrumrunner]

I guess you're missing my point entirely...

You are taking a peice of equipment, newly invented ( actually the true scientific calc' was introduced in January of 1965), on a mission far away from any tech support or spare parts ( be one heck of a long distance call to Tech support if anything went wrong with it ), to do something you can already do with the slide rules and charts...

And ya this is the military, so I'd think that the mission would be geared more towards tech and wepons, so I'd bring all the reliable equipment that was available at the time to study it...

Originally posted by exsmokingman
the ebens fought a war with another race completely destroying them? according to the documents on the serpo site they did that 1000 years before they became a spacefaring race. so logically, the opposition was either another local race sharing their planet or off-worlders who were silly enough to all come to the eben's world at once to be utterly destroyed.of-course the date mix-up could be a typo.either way we don't want to piss the eben's off, lol.

We arent a spacefaring race, and yet, we would be able to combat in space. Although it would only be in earths atmosphere, we do have the technology.

Here's an interesting look at this amazing thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
It shows all the post, in "low-bandwidth" mode, on one single (very long) page.

Originally posted by exsmokingman
the ebens fought a war with another race completely destroying them? according to the documents on the serpo site they did that 1000 years before they became a spacefaring race. so logically, the opposition was either another local race sharing their planet or off-worlders who were silly enough to all come to the eben's world at once to be utterly destroyed.of-course the date mix-up could be a typo.either way we don't want to piss the eben's off, lol.

This has already been discussed.
What is so hard to understand here? --"Spacefaring" most likely means the time the Ebens became active space explorers (...meaning, they began to venture outside their home solar system(s)).

[edit on 16-1-2006 by Unplugged]

an issue, thats bothering me right now, is the growing popularity of serpo is actually hampering..well more annoying, than hampering looking for some facts than it was about a month ago. Now, I have to sift threw not just 1 or 2 sites..but, hundreds of sites from blogs to news sites trying to find bits of research..its definitly a win-lose, situation. good for people reading if it is true, bad for finding out if it is true...but, its still one hellava ride!

[edit on 16-1-2006 by waffleprime]

Originally posted by Jedi_Master

Originally posted by sdrumrunner

Regarding the decision to take a scientific calculator (a valuable tool in the aforementioned disciplines, BTW), remember that the events in this story supposedly occurred only five years removed from successfully sending man to the moon... and retunring him alive. And considering the SR-71 -- a rather complicated feat of aeronautical engineering -- first flew in 1964, I think they could probably have handled the successful roll-out of a calculator.

Lastly, the figure was amended to 45.25 tons, more than enough to allow for several scientific calculators (as well as a slide rule, an abacus, and a whole lot of pencils and paper!).

I guess you're missing my point entirely...

You are taking a peice of equipment, newly invented ( actually the true scientific calc' was introduced in January of 1965), on a mission far away from any tech support or spare parts ( be one heck of a long distance call to Tech support if anything went wrong with it ), to do something you can already do with the slide rules and charts...

I apologize if I missed your point. Please allow me to appraoch what I said from a different angle:

The "scientific calculator" predates the alleged departure date. Sumlock Comptometer of England launched the ANITA in 1962, and Sharp introduced the Compet (CS-10A) in 1964.

Furthermore, while Wang Laboratories may have introduced the WANG 300 in 1965, Dr. Wang was awarded patent #2,708,722 in 1955 for his "Pulse Transfer Controlling Device," a patent he originally filed for in 1949 (source).

I imagine that to assume the US Military complex was using the same off-the-shelf computational technology as Joe Public in 1964 would be as erroneous as assumming we have, at any given time, access to the same raw computational power as the NSA.

Given the technology was under development for some time before the alleged Serpo mission launch date in 1964, it is very reasonable to assume that the scientific calculator did not represent an untested device. I guess the analogy to the SR-71 was lost in transcription -- If the SR-71 was capable of making a successful first flight in 1964, do you not think the US Military complex had access to fully functional, tested calculators?

And given the report is supposed to contain "literally hundreds of pages of scientific calculations," I strongly disagree with your assertion that a scientific calculator would have been of little or no value.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Here's an interesting look at this amazing thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
It shows all the post, in "low-bandwidth" mode, on one single (very long) page.

Neat! Would be nice to have it split up in say, 200-500 posts per page. 1500 is pretty darn much, and noone is gonna start from the beginning more than once or twice..

Originally posted by mbkennel

One constraint on these weird orbits: the average distance from planet to suns cannot change a huge amount, otherwise the climate would be far too unstable for comfortable habitation.

On Earth the mere fact of the seasons (tilt of rotational axis) causes a significant fluctuation, even though the distance from Earth to our Sun changes only a small amount.

mbkennel,

Do I correctly recall you stating in an earlier post that you were a scientist? If so, is this within your domain of expertise? If so, is it theoretically possible for a planet to orbit a (near) close binary system at an orbital plane parallel to the stars' rotational axis?

Bill Ryan produced the following diagram:



Would the orthogonal relationship between the axis of the planet and the suns be a required condition for orbital stability? Or is it theoretically possible the planet's orbit is simply extraplanar from that of the suns, similar to 2003 UB313, which orbits on a plane at a 44-degree tilt to the rest of the solar system?